What could or should not touch the glass?

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Tommy P

Tommy P

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Joined
Nov 16, 2003
Posts
870
Loc
Mid North Indiana
Another recent thread about photos to glass or acrylic got me thinking. And a customer yesterday brought it to a head.

A doctor's office girl came in yesterday with a new certificate. Says she used to take his stuff to a now out of business framer. Finds a 3/4" black and gold moulding and says this is close enough to match the others. After my recommendation of a mat and UV glass she says no. The others are just put in the frame. I'm sure there is no spacer and no UV glass. So I'm doing what they request. After all the customer (thinks) is always right!

So I got thinking, I would hardly ever let photos touch glass but not sure if this certificate would ever suffer ill effects from doing this. And then I started thinking about things like newspaper articles, etc.

Just what are the different items that are okay up against glass?
 
Beer and Jack Daniels are 2 that come to mind. Not together, tho!!
 
Good one, framah!

:beer:

I'd just do as the customer requested. In reality nothing should touch the glass but how far do you want to take the conservation or conversation for that matter. They are merely business shingles.
 
framah said:
Beer and Jack Daniels are 2 that come to mind. Not together, tho!!
Click to expand...

hahahaha

As for a more serious answer to the question... probably NOTHING should touch the glass in an ideal world, but anything you do to space the item from the glass always costs extra, and some customers don't want to pay or don't want to be that elaborate or to make the size that large, etc.
 
framah said:
Beer and Jack Daniels are 2 that come to mind. Not together, tho!!
Click to expand...

LOL!!!


As for the question; as long as you inform your customer about the potential damage; you frame per request.

And, honestly; I've seen so much artwork coming in where glass was directly placed on the art with no ill effects whatsoever. Sure, they were lucky; I've also seen art stuck to the glass. But a mat or spacers probably wouldn't have done much good either in those cases.

You just have to inform that they are taking a potential risk.
 
I just looked around the house...... and know what is not stuck.... documents, letters, news clips, covers of magazines, pages of magazines, photos printed on watercolor paper.

It's not the image that sticks, it's the gel of old photos. I haven't had an ink-jet or laser print stick yet. Check back with me in 2040. :D

Oh, and I counted nine needle art pieces with no mats or spacers..... that are doing fine in this damp state. Some day I'll actually talk the girls into putting glass on them. :icon11:
 
My thoughts are that the more porous a surface, the less potential for sticking. EG: Glossy photo, higher potential for sticking than a newspaper.

I tell the customer the options, and the risks, and let them make the choice.

If it's a matte finish photo that is printed from a disk, I sometimes let them feel ok about putting it right against glass by saying "if it sticks, you can always print another one". I usually do that with a customer whom I sense doesn't want to spend the money on spacers, to let them feel ok about proceeding with the less expensive option.
 
Condensation inside the glass is the problem. With condensed moisture, the gelcoat on traditional photos can soften and stick. The moisture can soak into hygroscopic materials (papers, fabrics) in contact, causing mildew and possibly mold. Also, some inks can soften and stick to the glass, as well.

Any separation of the glass from the item provides an air gap that facilitates evaporation and prevents the moisture from soaking into hygroscopic materials.

For the purposes of inhibiting condensation, acrylic is better than glass, because it is a better insulator. Dew point is the phenomenon of natural physics that causes condensation.
 
rule of thumb we use is nothing touches glass...just incorporate cost of spacers ( if no mat used ) into the fitting charge.
 
My party line as follows:

Artwork should never be placed in direct contact with glass. Glass is a poor conveyor of energy, which means that it changes temperature more slowly than the surrounding atmosphere. In cool rooms which are warming, the glass will remain cool while the temperature of the air in the room rises.

The cooler surface of the glass will cause moisture in the air to condense on both surfaces of the glass just like a dehumidifier. This condensation moisture can damage artwork if it is touching the glass.

In the short run, absorbed moisture can create or increase cockling of the art work. In the long run, it can significantly increase the chance of developing mold. If airspace is provided with matting or spacers, the condensation can harmlessly evaporate as the glass temperature reaches air temperature.

Reality says:

The changes in temperature need to be quick and significant in order to cause condensation. If I put a matted and framed piece in my display window in the morning, by afternoon on a sunny day I can see water dripping down the inside of the glass. Not good.

However I would always tell the customer not to hang said picture in direct sunlight. The changes on an interior wall would most likely not have the significant temperature change required for moisture buildup.

Result:

I do not always use a spacer, but I inform the customer of the party line.
 
Okay, I've been accused before of being a few fries short of a happy meal but here goes anyway.....

Let us say that your customer brings in an article, maybe a newspaper page, etc., that is, say 15" x 18" and wants it framed with no mats. Let's also say you can't mount in any way. Maybe it's a just large certificate. Whatever.

How are you going to use a glass spacer and not have it stay in place and not "billow out". Am I missing something?

And yes, I know I should either convince my customer to "do it right" or let them walk out. But sometimes that's not reality.
 
Just wondering why we can't mount it. If we're going to play we need to know the rules of this game.
 
Well Jeff, I guess we theoretically can mount anything. But it's been hammered into my feeble little framer's brain over these many years that I should be fearful of mounting almost anything. Anything could have potential value!

So, if we are presented with say a poster from the sixties signed by all the Fab Four, and the customer insists it just go in a big beautiful frame with no mats what do you do?

And let's say that no amount of guidance will convince her otherwise.

I would tell her there is no way to do this with a spacer. It either has to have mats or be mounted to the correct substrate. But therein lies the rub!

Please tell me if I have missed something. Is there a way to space this?

Thanks
 
Heat activated Artcare Restore board is reversable. Other than that there is no economical solution. To get the depth needed you would have to turn scoop liner material or something similar on its side and line it with rabbet tape on the back edge. Acrylic can be in direct contact with the piece if it is in a controlled environment. Proper spacing can get into so much additional expense that matting becomes the most economical solution.
 
Tommy P said:
Let us say that your customer brings in an article, maybe a newspaper page, etc., that is, say 15" x 18" and wants it framed with no mats. Let's also say you can't mount in any way. Maybe it's a just large certificate. Whatever.

How are you going to use a glass spacer and not have it stay in place and not "billow out". Am I missing something?

And yes, I know I should either convince my customer to "do it right" or let them walk out. But sometimes that's not reality.
Click to expand...

You mean like this?
(PHOTO) http://www.thegrumble.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=3171&d=1231280120
(THREAD)http://www.thegrumble.com/showthread.php?t=36279

That an entire newspaper in there, including the advertising supplement -- no adhesive of any kind touches any part of it, but it floats about 1/2" off the black background.
 
Jim

Great presentation and technique for the newspaper!

Now what about my 24 x 36 Beatles poster?? And I know about Artcare Restore but is there another way. Again no mats.

Sorry I'm being so dense about this. Four large shadowboxes with TONS of memorabilia due by Friday have my brain drained!! (and yes, I should be working on them instead of this thread)
 
Tommy P said:
Well Jeff, I guess we theoretically can mount anything. But it's been hammered into my feeble little framer's brain over these many years that I should be fearful of mounting almost anything. Anything could have potential value!

So, if we are presented with say a poster from the sixties signed by all the Fab Four, and the customer insists it just go in a big beautiful frame with no mats what do you do?

And let's say that no amount of guidance will convince her otherwise.

I would tell her there is no way to do this with a spacer. It either has to have mats or be mounted to the correct substrate. But therein lies the rub!

Please tell me if I have missed something. Is there a way to space this?

Thanks
Click to expand...

Hinge it, float mounting it on an oversized board. Size it so that there will be half an inch or so around the poster. Use spacers on the glass to provide adequate airspace of 1/8" or more. The spacers will rest on the board, not the poster.

Oh, you don't want to see the matboard around the poster? That's right. Put a wide fillet in the lip of the frame to cover it. If you don't want to use a fillet for some reason, use a router, table saw or hammer and chisel to enlarge the rabbet of the frame.
 
close enough to match the others

bbbboooooaaaarrrriiiinnnngggg wall!!!!!!!!!!! (shows they : 1-are cheap, 2-have NO inspiration/creativity)


and you really missed a GREAT opportunity to educate a customer on how fast a photo and glass become one with each other and the reason we invented mating and spacers!!!!!!! did you, at least, give her a spinup on UV glazing????????? missed opportunities like this may never appear again,
 
You can just encapsulate it in maylar. The narrow tape for sealing the mylar is narrow enough to hide under the rabbet. The matte finish mylar would not leave glossy spots on the glass and their would be no need for spacers. Pat at Attach EZ sells it.
 
Gee Bill, I never thought of that! I really should try to educate my customer!

And I believe the wall would be...... bbbboooorrrriiiinnnngggg.

This ain't my first rodeo.
 
Jeff Rodier said:
You can just encapsulate it in maylar. The narrow tape for sealing the mylar is narrow enough to hide under the rabbet. The matte finish mylar would not leave glossy spots on the glass and their would be no need for spacers. Pat at Attach EZ sells it.
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The glossy surface of Mylar against glass will result in Newton rings. While they do no harm, they would likely be visually distracting.

The matte Attach-Ez products are not Mylar or pure polyester. I'm sure she could correct me if I am mistaken, but I believe they are polypropylene.
 
Tommy P said:
Now what about my 24 x 36 Beatles poster?? And I know about Artcare Restore but is there another way. Again no mats.
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Search the Grumble archives for DCO or Direct Contact Overlay mounting. That's the technique used for the Obama newspaper, and I've used it with great success on antique samplers, cross stitches and needlepoints that were too fragile to support their own weight, let alone withstand stretching.

A document or paper artwork that has some wrinkles or mild creases would be effectively flattened by the overlay mount, too.

It is really a quick & simple assembly process using only a few materials, but you must never do it using glass.
 
Jeff Rodier said:
You can just encapsulate it in maylar. The narrow tape for sealing the mylar is narrow enough to hide under the rabbet. The matte finish mylar would not leave glossy spots on the glass and their would be no need for spacers. Pat at Attach EZ sells it.
Click to expand...

David is right. Mylar is polyester film; relatively stiff and glossy. Invisimount is polypropylene film; more elastic and not glossy.

Regardless of the clear film choice, I probably wouldn't use an encapsulation mount on anything that large. All clear films would deflect and appear wrinkled in such a large mount. Pressing the clear film against glass would have no air space to accommodate evaporation, so condensation might still cause a mess of mildew within the frame, even if the poster were separated by the film. The tapes used for encapsulation are 1/2" to 3/4" wide and would not be hidden under a standard frame's lip, but you could add a slip or fillet to extend the lip.

If a DCO mount won't work, then a more traditional mounting technique would be to hinge it to a slightly-undersized backer of alpha cellulose board (perhaps reinforced by polyflute; aka Coroplast), then provide a generous spacer under optically coated, 97+% UV filtering glass or acrylic.
 
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