I'm trying for the first time Jim Miller's textile mounting with T fasteners. I'm moving along following the instructions then 'pop' they all unravel and I have to start over!!! (Could have laced it by now!) What am I doing wrong?
Help What am I doing wrong??
- Thread starter Julie Walsh
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FrameMakers
PFG, Picture Framing God
You have to maintain tension as you looping the thread. I also find that you have to cross over the thread on the T-fasteners. One trick is to put a piece of tape over a T every once and a while so if it does unravel it will stop before the whole thing comes undone. Of course remove the tape before fitting. 
It took me a time or two to get the hang of it, but once I did, it was considerably faster.
It took me a time or two to get the hang of it, but once I did, it was considerably faster.
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I'm a big fan of lacing and won't change!
The problems you are experiencing with tags is exactly why I'm not changing. Lacing works perfectly for me and I don't wish to have the experience you are having.
FrameMakers
PFG, Picture Framing God
Isn't Jurassic Park some where near you? That is where I hear they keep the other dinosaurs.
LM*O Dave! I actually adapted utilizing my weights. It is something to practice and I do see how it will be faster than lacing once I get better at it.
C
Cliff Wilson
Guest
I actually use a needlenose plyers ... run the thread up past the tab, keep tension on, grab the tab with the plyers, wrap the thread and start back.
I had trouble when I first started, but it works very well once you get the hang of it.
Ormond, it IS lacing! This is not the technique that Pat teaches with her gun which I have a number of issues with. (different discussion) With this technique, you insert the tags around the perimeter, then lace like you would a pair of boots.
The tag distributes stress, the thread is still the "weak point" in the lace. You still have all the adjustment associated with lacing. The thread does not get weakened by pulling it through the art.The ONLY issue that I can see is that it's not "like to like" becasue the tag is in contact witht he fabric. But, since the tag is inert, it seems fine.
I had trouble when I first started, but it works very well once you get the hang of it.
Ormond, it IS lacing! This is not the technique that Pat teaches with her gun which I have a number of issues with. (different discussion) With this technique, you insert the tags around the perimeter, then lace like you would a pair of boots.
The tag distributes stress, the thread is still the "weak point" in the lace. You still have all the adjustment associated with lacing. The thread does not get weakened by pulling it through the art.The ONLY issue that I can see is that it's not "like to like" becasue the tag is in contact witht he fabric. But, since the tag is inert, it seems fine.
Julie, if it's any consolation, your difficulty is typical for the first try. But as the others have explained, once you learn how to keep tension on the thread as you go, it becomes much faster and easier. An occasional tape tab provides a safety net in case you sneeze and flinch.
Ormond, there's nothing wrong in clinging to the tried-and-true traditional methods with which you are comfortable. But for those who are searching for a faster way, speed-lacing the nylon tags is the closest substitute to your method.
Ormond, there's nothing wrong in clinging to the tried-and-true traditional methods with which you are comfortable. But for those who are searching for a faster way, speed-lacing the nylon tags is the closest substitute to your method.
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I've never quite got my head around this method, is there a 'how to' video anywhere?
I've never actually tried it from the written instructions though.
What I like about 'normal' lacing (apart from not buying everything required as an end-user but for re-sale, and having any type of needle or thread I'll ever need at hand) is, because I always choose a thread that fits snugly through any counted fabric, I don't need to worry about maintaining tension, I can leave it at any time and it wouldn't have relaxed when I return.
I've never actually tried it from the written instructions though.
What I like about 'normal' lacing (apart from not buying everything required as an end-user but for re-sale, and having any type of needle or thread I'll ever need at hand) is, because I always choose a thread that fits snugly through any counted fabric, I don't need to worry about maintaining tension, I can leave it at any time and it wouldn't have relaxed when I return.
FrameMakers
PFG, Picture Framing God
Once your proficient with the speed lace technique, you would be done almost before you start. For me it has taken framing N/W from drudgery to something I enjoy. Of course with your other half of the business being directly related to N/W I am sure you get more then your fair share of them in.
This is a very unfair statement. If you have issues with my method of stretching needlework, I wish you would share it with the rest of us. I can't defend what you don't explain to me to be wrong.
For the record Cliff, I asked both John Raines and William Parker while they were attending one of my classes, if they could see any reason why my method of stretching needlework wouldn't be considered archival. Both said no. John said that the only reason he could see was that it hadn't been approved. I then asked him "approved by who?" He didn't really give me an answer to that. So I guess I will ask you, approved by who?
Anyone who has used my method of stretching needlework, and there are thousands, know that it does no harm. And this is something I can prove. I can also prove that the lacing methods can't say the same. Unless you are sewing muslim onto the needlework so that the laces don't go through the actual canvas, the fibers of a needlework canvas can be cut by the thread if pulled too tight. My method illiminates the need for the extra step, while doing no harm to the needlework.
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I do indeed, and with every complete kit we sell, or especially a chart, plus the fabric and all the threads/beads/blending filaments/whatever required, we give a 'free stretching' voucher if/when returned for framing. The material costs are nothing and so is the time, but if that time could be even less with the same results then I'm all ears.
But I think that if I was going to change anything, it would be to the way Ormond does it - he sews extensions on to everything so that the lacing 'space' is like one inch. That makes for really fast lacing; I know it does because I frequently sew extensions (usually calico) on (but only when there is not enough/could be more spare fabric) and when I do I have them almost meet when wrapped around the support - there'd be no room for tags.
Cliff, you made this statement:
Ormond, it IS lacing! This is not the technique that Pat teaches with her gun which I have a number of issues with. (different discussion) With this technique, you insert the tags around the perimeter, then lace like you would a pair of boots.
If you are going to make a negative statement like the one above, then please enlighten me. I am asking you what your objections are to my stretching technique, because no one has been able to give me any reason why it shouldn't be considered archival? Not even the educators. Do you have one? I would also like to know who it is that needs to approve my methods as well? No body seems to know that either. I'm not asking to be sarcastic. I really want to know. Statements like yours have been made here before, but no one ever goes any farther than making the statement. There is never an explanation.
C
Cliff Wilson
Guest
Sorry, you're right, it needs more than a "drive by."
I don't have the time to answer fully, but briefly ...
I don't know what "archival" means. I don't think I said any technique was or wasn't archival. There are techniques that I believe better for a variety of reasons.
In the opinion of Cliff Wilson (which is only important in my shop) needleart mounting techniques have a variety of pros and cons.
Potential danger to the art (sharp needles, chemicals (invisible or not), etc.), the ability to accomplish the task in a timely fashion, the option to use different and potentially more appropriate substrates, distribution of tension and other "engineering/material issues."
At some point I would love to list the pros and cons of each technique. I haven't seen the new guide to textiles that just came out, but hope something like that is in there.
When weighing all the pros and cons MY list of techniques USUALLY runs in the following order, but it should be noted that I use which ever one seems best based on the particular cloth and design involved and have been using hte "tag + lacing" method MUCH more lately.
1) Parallel Lacing
2) Tag "shoe lace" lacing
3) "point" or V lacing
4) "Pat's method" as I've seen it demonstrated at shows
5) Pinning
I do not consider stapling (talked to a framer that still does this) or adhesives acceptable.
Why, clearly, I do. [In my shop.]
I don't have the time to answer fully, but briefly ...
I don't know what "archival" means. I don't think I said any technique was or wasn't archival. There are techniques that I believe better for a variety of reasons.
In the opinion of Cliff Wilson (which is only important in my shop) needleart mounting techniques have a variety of pros and cons.
Potential danger to the art (sharp needles, chemicals (invisible or not), etc.), the ability to accomplish the task in a timely fashion, the option to use different and potentially more appropriate substrates, distribution of tension and other "engineering/material issues."
At some point I would love to list the pros and cons of each technique. I haven't seen the new guide to textiles that just came out, but hope something like that is in there.
When weighing all the pros and cons MY list of techniques USUALLY runs in the following order, but it should be noted that I use which ever one seems best based on the particular cloth and design involved and have been using hte "tag + lacing" method MUCH more lately.
1) Parallel Lacing
2) Tag "shoe lace" lacing
3) "point" or V lacing
4) "Pat's method" as I've seen it demonstrated at shows
5) Pinning
I do not consider stapling (talked to a framer that still does this) or adhesives acceptable.
Why, clearly, I do. [In my shop.]
FramerDave
PFG, Picture Framing God
Yes. For each mounting technique the process, advantages and disadvantages are listed.
FrameMakers
PFG, Picture Framing God
While I have used the boot lacing for almost a year now, I still don't know what the difference between this and the method that pat uses. I cant comment on what she is doing, but am always willing to listen to new ideas then judge for myself what is the best way to do each project.
No you didn't say that any methods were or weren't archival. But you did make a negative statement that pointed at my technique without giving a reason for the issues.
[Potential danger to the art (sharp needles]
If the sharp needles you are referring to are the needles in the Fine Fabric tool, they are the same needles and tools that Jim Miller got from me and has been using in his speed lacing method for years. Unless he is buying his needles from somewhere other than one of my distributors, which I don't think he is, they are ball point needles and will do no damage to fabric or needle art. The needles were specifically made to go through fabric without harm. Taylors and designers are useing these tools with the same needles and fasteners in place of pins, to design clothing that cost in the thousands of dollars. Do you think they would use someting that would damage the fabric? This is something that I can also prove, because they are gettting their supplies from my company.
[chemicals (invisible or not), etc.),]
Not sure what chemicals you are referring to?
[the ability to accomplish the task in a timely fashion, the option to use different and potentially more appropriate substrates, ]
I wasn't aware that acid free, Artcare foam board was no longer considered an appropriate substrate. And those who are using my method know how quick it is and that it will be perfectly straight every time.
[distribution of tension and other "engineering/material issues." ]
My method has tention distribution that is equal on each point and will nerver cause the pull marks that you sometimes get from the lacing method.
Still don't see what issues you are referring to, Cliff so I will leave it at that. You are right, it is your own approval that is important and I would never try to tell you anything else. I don't have all the answers, but I do have a few that can help framers and all I ask from anyone is fairness when they refer to me or my company. Hope you have a wonderful Christmas season. For what it is worth, things are looking really good from my end of the world.
C
Cliff Wilson
Guest
Pat, The list was a list of things that are to be considered.
ALL the methods are impacted by the list in one way or another.
A method that I might list as "better" than another, may be "worse" on a given aspect.
I think all of them could be called "archival" and all of them have one or another problem.
Glad things are going well for you!
The Christmas orders have kicked in here and it's been nicely busy.
Just placed an online order for some tags from you!
See you in Vegas.
ALL the methods are impacted by the list in one way or another.
A method that I might list as "better" than another, may be "worse" on a given aspect.
I think all of them could be called "archival" and all of them have one or another problem.
Glad things are going well for you!
The Christmas orders have kicked in here and it's been nicely busy.
Just placed an online order for some tags from you!
See you in Vegas.
FramerDave
PFG, Picture Framing God
Perhaps the "invisible" ink from the quilt marking pen?
C
Cliff Wilson
Guest
Well, looks like I'm finding more time than I thought ...
First, I want to repeat that all of the techniques have both pros and cons and it's the aggregate for the particular application that needs to be evaluated. Pat, you seem to think there is some threshold over which something is acceptable or not. I just don't see it that way.
Yes Dave, that is one instance of chemicals being introduced with unknown future consequences.
The idea of substrates ... I didn't say anything particularly was "wrong" with Artcare foam or other foam products, but in many applications I prefer to use an 8-ply board with the edges sanded. This seems to introduce less variables and risk and provides the option of using unbuffered board if, for example, silk is present. Using 8-ply is MUCH easier with any of the lacing methods.
As for the reference to "Taylors and designers" (sic) in the clothing industry ... one of my part-timers makes wedding dresses and does alterations on wedding dresses and other "high-end" clothing. She says, yes, many use tags, but many do not. There is apparently an ongoing controversy concerning their appropriateness. In fact, as I understand it, there may be less of a consensus than we in the framing industry have relative to tags.
As for the needles ... yes, the "boot lace" method also uses the sharp needles. It would be so much better if there was an option of a blunt needle like a tapestry needle typically used for lacing. This is one of those things that is a con for both methods using the guns.
Among other things, I much prefer the "adjust-ability" of a laced result.
First, I want to repeat that all of the techniques have both pros and cons and it's the aggregate for the particular application that needs to be evaluated. Pat, you seem to think there is some threshold over which something is acceptable or not. I just don't see it that way.
Yes Dave, that is one instance of chemicals being introduced with unknown future consequences.
The idea of substrates ... I didn't say anything particularly was "wrong" with Artcare foam or other foam products, but in many applications I prefer to use an 8-ply board with the edges sanded. This seems to introduce less variables and risk and provides the option of using unbuffered board if, for example, silk is present. Using 8-ply is MUCH easier with any of the lacing methods.
As for the reference to "Taylors and designers" (sic) in the clothing industry ... one of my part-timers makes wedding dresses and does alterations on wedding dresses and other "high-end" clothing. She says, yes, many use tags, but many do not. There is apparently an ongoing controversy concerning their appropriateness. In fact, as I understand it, there may be less of a consensus than we in the framing industry have relative to tags.
As for the needles ... yes, the "boot lace" method also uses the sharp needles. It would be so much better if there was an option of a blunt needle like a tapestry needle typically used for lacing. This is one of those things that is a con for both methods using the guns.
Among other things, I much prefer the "adjust-ability" of a laced result.
The pens have been around for years and are used for marking on fabric by thousands of seamstress's taylors, and quilters. The ink disappears. If the ink did reappear after time as some have suggested, and it was a big problem, don't you think that they would have been taken off the market by now?
Sometimes I think our industry goes a little bit overboard with the archival standards being set for us to follow.
Everytime a company comes out with something new, methods change. It is the one constant of the industry. No one has to change with the times, but when it all comes down to it, there aren't very many who can afford to be framing as a hobby. We are all trying to make a living and sometimes change is necessary to make a better one.
BTW The pen really doesn't relate my method of stretching needlework at all, because the pen is not the only way to achieve the guide line. Some make a basting stitich along the grain line and others use taylors chaulk, which is removable.
Cliff, your order went out yesterday. It should be there Monday or Tue. :smiley: Thanks.
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'course it does, the fabric it was used on gets worn/used and is then washed or dry cleaned and that cycle is repeated until the item is worn out, damaged, grown out of ... whatever and then it's tossed - or maybe you'll croak first and your family will toss it.
I've no idea why I'd need a mark on any sort of fabric for a 'guide line' though - counted fabrics have their own - rows of holes - and close weaved fabrics ... well, they're maybe like paper - I don't need any guide line for paper ... or canvas (as in an oil/acrylic); why do I need a guide line for fabric? It would be something else to do ... wouldn't it?
FramerDave
PFG, Picture Framing God
It's not so much a matter of the ink reappearing that concerns me, it's the fact that the ink is still in the fabric. You just don't see it. Do we know what the long-term effects of that ink might be?
I don't doubt that the pens have been used by many quilters, tailors, et al. However the products they produce (clothes and quilts) are washed after being made. I would assume that the ink would be washed out. Needlework, on the other hand, is not washed after having been stretched for framing.
If you or other framers choose to use it, that's fine. I just don't see any need to put anything into or on artwork that could change its condition or is not easily reversible.
I addressed it because the marker is included in the kit, you use it in your demonstrations and Cliff brought the subject up.
John Golden
CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
I have been using the "Miller" method evey since I took his needlework class last January in Vegas. It works very well for me.
The moment you handle a textile with your bare, ungloved hand, it is no longer "archival". No matter what method you are using, it can not be considered archival unless you are wearing cotton gloves.
That was told to me a few years ago by a textile restoration professional.
We need a roll eyes icon.
John
That was told to me a few years ago by a textile restoration professional.
We need a roll eyes icon.
John
Something that many don't know about me is that I used to sew (a lot and even won awards on my sewing) and never once did I wash something before wearing. Granted, some clothing will eventually be washed, but that is hardly an argument, since no bride is going to wash her wedding dress. Nor is a taylor going wash suits before they are worn or after.
Neelework is hard to come by and I have needlework examples that I have been using for about 8 years in my demonstrations. They have been marked with the pens maybe 2 or 300 times. None of which show any signs of changing the fabric.
I don't recall ever having you stay and watch a demonstration, Dave. Things have changed in the last 8 years, just like the industry and methods.
JRB; The moment you handle a textile with your bare said:
C
Cliff Wilson
Guest
Pat, you've used this example for this and other things to "prove" no harm.
I don't want to argue to argue, but you do understand that this only proves that the piece you have seems to be ok and is not a PROOF.
Because something did "no harm" on one or even a number of pieces does not mean it might not harm the next piece. Standard logic constructs don't support the argument.
As an example, many of us have taken apart a pastel that has had the glass smashed against it for decades and it's been fine. Although we can point to one or more examples where the technique is fine, we all know that it can and has damaged other works of art and should not be used as a technique.
Pat Murphey
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
What is the point of this nitpicking? If you don't like tags, don't use them.
:kaffeetrinker_2:
:kaffeetrinker_2:
C
Cliff Wilson
Guest
For me, it's an academic thing.
Discussion increases knowledge and the more knowledge we all have the better decisions we make.
I actually like tags and find them a critical and useful tool.
That does not mean that everything you might do with them or the way you use them is always the best option.
Discussion often leads to hybrid solutions that provide new and important options.
THAT's the point, and I don't think it's nitpicking. It's trying to be clear and understand.
FramerDave
PFG, Picture Framing God
Ok, perhaps I did not choose my words wisely. Quilts, garments, etc. are washed, laundered or dry cleaned. Whatever method is used, one way or another it will be cleaned eventually. Unlike a stretched and framed piece of needlework.
More to the point: With clothing and the like, the ink will (presumably) be removed at some point through a cleaning process. With needlework, the ink will remain in the fabric more or less permanently. Do we know what effect that ink will have over the long term?
That's not surprising, given the large crowds at the shows that are usually gathered at your booth. The first time I saw you demonstrate the marker on needlework was in Atlanta, so that would have been '08 at the latest. I recall clearly that my face gave away my surprise when I saw you use a marker on the needleowork. I asked about it, and you demonstrated how using the other end of the marker you could make the ink "disappear." I pointed out then (as I did yesterday) that the ink is still in the fabric even if you couldn't see it. If I recall correctly our conversation ended there.
You know Cliff, the one thing I am absolutely sure of is that if there were any examples of my methods doing damage to the artwork, I would have heard about it by now. Probably right here on the G.
I can't cover every aspect of what could or might happen 50 years down the road. I use common sense as my guide and common sense says that many of the arguments here are a lot to do about nothing. I don't expect that everyone is going to like my methods or use them. Anyone who has been framing for as many years as we have, can judge for themselves what method works best for any given project. I will never tell someone to always use my methods, because there are times when the old ways are best. It depends on the project.
All I do is try to help framers be archival and still be able to make money, and I won't appologize for that. Most of the time the only thing I hear from anyone is how grateful they are that I do what I do and how much they appreciate it. Stretching needlework is just a very small protion of my program and most who have actually used my methods to stetch needlework will tell you that they really like it. If the fine line that is made with a disappearing ink pen, that doesn't even need to be used to make the line, is the only issue you can find objectionable, then I'm not sure what the problem is. My guess it that some who have been posting here don't even know what my method is, nor have they ever tried it.
This is a little like comparing mounting a jersey to stretching a canvas. They don't relate.
It isn't a piece, it is many pieces of needlework that I have been demonstrating with for years. Now the question is; how many years will be enough to qualify as proof?
Quite frankly I don't remember the conversation you are referring to, Dave, but if the conversation ended as you say I had probably thought I had given you an answer. I'm sure there where many others wanting to see other demonstrations as well. A show is not always the best place to get answers to complex questions.
This might be a good place to bring up the subject of booth etiquette. Many of the vendors who come to the shows have paid a lot of money for thier booth. If you have something negative to discuss with anyone about thier products please don't bring it up at the show in front of a lot of other people. Tell them that you have something that you would like to talk to them about and call them after the show. If it is something that can be answered with a quick demonstration, then ask your question in a manner that isn't accusing or negative sounding to the other people around.
Sometimes in isn't possible to get to the demonstration you want to see before you have to leave for a class. Don't be disruptive becasue someone was ahead of you. I try to be as accomodating as possible, but with over 4 hours of demonstration information, not including the frame repair system, it isn't always easy to please everyone or show them what they want to see when they have time to see it. It is best to try to schedule time for your visit to my booth so that you can stay long enough to see what you want to see.
Remember, I'm only one person and can only do so much. I am always available by phone after the show, so don't be afraid to call if you didn't get your questions answered while you were there.