Weigh in on Underpinner (OK, call the damn thing a v-nailer!).

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Marc Lizer

Marc Lizer

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Jun 28, 1999
Posts
1,545
Loc
North Hollywood, CA
We are looking to join larger mouldings with ease. We have 2 Cassise 810's. I am thinking of selling them (they go for about $1000.00 a piece used, I understand), and getting the new Cassise (about 4000.00, less the 2000.00 for the old ones makes an outlay of 2,000.00.

In Vegas I gave the AMP and the Cassise a going over.

I have my crits and bennies of both, because both have upsides and down sides.

Here is the question:
What other companies should I look into? Pam Fastners? Euro? Others?

AMP vs Cassise, how you you go? But don't just tell me the brand you have is the best, because it is the only one you have used?

If the one you have (whatever make) is the only one you have intimate dealings with (including all the cussing), what do you like best about it?
What do hat the most about it?
What would you change? Add? Take away?
What is the most important feature to you in the machine you use or would like to use?

fire away . . .
 
Marc,
I'm in the same place you are. I'm looking for a new underpinner. I thought that I would take several out for a test drive at Atlanta, that didn't happen. I went to Las Vegas last week and checked out the Cassease and the Amp machines. I currently own a CS89. I have postponed my purchase until the New York Show were I hope to look at some other brands.
I like my CS89 because it is trouble free and dependable.
The things that would make it better are a chevron shaped plunger / hold down, and a rabbet clamp that would draw the joint tighter.
The CS299 has a stronger clamping system but it has a round plunger that I don't like.
The Amp machines have a strong clamping action and a chevron plunger but when you change V nail size you have to swap out a steel block in the driver head.
I would like to see a machine with a chevron plunger design, a positive clampling action, and ease of changing V nails. The ability to stack V nails is also important. Changing nail size while the frame is clamped in the machine would be nice to be able to do with frames on which you would like to use several sizes of nails.
I would be curious to know what machine Rob Markoff and Jay Goltz use in their operation.
 
Hi Mark

I have both, my Amp VN42 is about 2 years old and my Cassise 810 is about 25 years old so comparisons are to current Cassise's are not as objective.

I prefer the vn42, the hammer is solid not a thin over priced piece of sheet metal like on the Cassise. The down side of the vn42 is that to change wedge size you have to change the head about a 1 min opreation. Not a big deal if you batch all your small frames, ect... The vn42 seems to be more powerfull than the 810 and faster to use. One thing that I don't like about the vn42 is that there are two layers of table tops, one that moves with the head and guts and the other is stationary on top. It is next to impossibe to keep the lower level clean with out disasembling the whole machine.

PLEASE bring back spell checker ;)
 
I have a Euro 9009 and have used it for 12 years. It is about as flaw free as any machine I have seen or used. The construction is massive around the hold down head and I have NEVER broken a driver, a problem that someone told me was with the Cassise. You can change to any size v-nail with or without the frame clamped in place and there is no changing of driver heads. It comes with 4 different shaped hold down heads including a chevron shaped head and 2 hard rubber heads for odd shaped mouldings where the solid nylon heads might dent the moulding.

A photo framer in my town brings ALL of her large mouldings to me to join, the Raphael, Aubusson, and Umbria type mouldings that LJ carry. The Euro will handle mouldings up to 3" tall and over 4" wide. It will stack v-nails and won't usually veer off vertical in most softwoods. Ash and oak are another story for any underpinner.

Downside of the Euro. After 12 years I have developed a minor air leak around the air regulator gauge on the machine. And I stripped out one of the allen head machine screws trying to get it loose to clean around the driver area. Cause was a cheap allen wrench, not the machine screw.

The hold down clamp is a solid 1 1/2" steel vertical actuator post attached to the hold down arm by a nut that takes a 2" wrench to move!

I haven't seen an underpinner that is nearly as stout built as the Euro. A little priceier than some but you get what you pay for.

Goober
 
Marc, we have a C 810 and the new $4000.00 Cassise. I'm at home now so I can't recall the model number. We just got it before Christmas and it seems to work great on everything. It comes with triangle shaped and round shaped hold downs, a total of six different ones for hardwoods, softwoods & compo.

The old 810 worked great when it was new, 20 years ago. It is pretty much only good for softwoods now. I am working on replacing the drive train on it and it should work like new when I'm done. I am keeping it as a back up in case the new one is down for whatever reason.

We also just purchased a new pneumatic Hoffman joiner. That is probably the machine that would work the best on realy large mouldings. I still haven't had time to tweek it in yet, so I don't know it's full capabilities. It is slower to use than a Thumbnailer but the end result, the wedges, makes the Thumbnailer look like a silly toy. It will also join multi angle frames as well.
The Hoffman was designed for, and marketed to, the cabinet making industry for all sorts of joinery work. They do not market to our industry.


John
 
I have an old Cassesse 276 which they appear to still make although updated now...I can join frames up to five and a half inches wide with ease.The plunger sometimes damages softer woods but I cut myself a chevron out of MDF which spreads the weight better.It has rebate clamps which draw in the moulding and I have had very little trouble from it in fifteen years of constant use.I would get another one in an instant.As for other machines I have no idea about them.Never used anything else but all I know is that the one I use is damn good.
 
Well I have two Treble Bond underpinners as back ups which are foot operated and work after a fashion so I guess I have used something else after all.They were made by a wee guy in Nottingham who died before he got around to mass producing them.
 
Marc, it has been some time since I have looked at the (Under-V-Nail-Pinner) machines available but I did make the same sort of choice a few years back. Firstly though I am assuming that AMP is Alpha Machine Pneumatics? My opinion at the time was that there was only two brands that seemed well constructed and easy to keep in good condition these were the Cassese and Alpha Machine(AMP), the model was fairly much irelevant, in my opinion the Casesse was the better macchine for tricky mouldings and more "varied" work as they were easily adjustable whereas the AMP was considerably better for production work due to it's speed, this however has the downside where doing a change of nail sizes is slow in comparison. The AMP is perfect for my workshop, there is one modification that I will have made in the near future and that is to have separate control over the pressure for the top and front clamps.
 
Marc, I see I've been beaten with information - We looked at the updated C 89 recently and chevron bumpers are an option so would be availabvle. The only problem with our old C 89 is the lack of height when constructing deep boxes. If any has any ideas, please let us know.
Alan
 
To get extra height when needed on my ancient machine I just unscrew the stopper thingy and use the crossbar.It seems to work quite well and you can join stuff up to about four or five inches high.The steel crossmember doesn`t actually cause any damage to the frame as it spreads the downforce quite well.
 
I'm only familiar with the Amp machine, Marc, but I must say that I'm not particularly happy with how fast it gets out of square.
 
Marc

It's way out of my budget at present but I have seen the Cassese CS-4095 ULTRA Barrel Underpinner in action Kool, no changing of wedges just program in the moulding you are working on and away you go, the CS-3099 can be programed for the moulding you are working on just punch in the # of the moulding you are working on and it takes over, there are a few installed in Ireland and I have not heard any bad reports.
 
Marc,

While in LV I took a quick look at v-nailers, too. The Euro 9006 has the pointy rabbet pulling device, and the pressure needed to penetrate the wood is transmitted from the hold down head to the underside of the pinner so that nails aren't driven out the top from too much pressure, or not driven far enough in. I understand the pressure on some machines must be adjusted by hand for each type of wood.

Would you all mind adding some information on the pressure adjustment of each machine to this topic? I am just now beginning to investigate pneumatic (mine is manual) machines, so appreciate the information.
 
Here ore some thoughts so far:
Re: Bob Shirks comments:
I do not like the plunger system on either the AMP or the Cassise 299M. The Amp magnetic change is cool, but to change height you need to do several twists, and be sure the set screw is clear. The Cassisse is easy to change, but when you do un-screw it (an easy function) it falls down due to gravity (whereas on the 810, it falls up)(does that even make sanse?).

As for what Jay and Rob use: 2 probs: Different machines for different biz and different apps. For instance, we have a Gunnar CMC. Right machine, in the right app. Works for me, but not for others. Like, for instance, not for Lise.

Another thing is: they may not want to **** off vendors by having the preception if endorseing a product. While I am trying my best not to do that, I hope PFM does not get any calls. I just want to get the machine that is right for us.

Diver Dave:
True, there is substantial driver difference. And the (old 810) Cassise is "breaky" in that respect. The new one is far less "breaky", and far easier than the old one to change. I guess this is the trade off. Make it an expensive part that is difficult to change, built like a tank, and not likley to need changing (the way they used to make the timing chain in old cars). Or make it easy to change, and cheap to purchase, but eaiser to break if abused(like new timing belts on new cars). It is a tough call. Is it a deal breaker between the two?
From what I have seen, that flimsy driver will drive better into hardwood (I tired to do an apple to apple test at the show). As for the Euro, I have no basis to compare. Maybe they will chime in on how they tackle the problem.
PS I don't think spelchecker will help make the v-nailer work better?

Framerguy:
I have heard the Euro will go 6 wide and tall. That sounds good. But I am unfamiliar with the machine in general. i will try to get a closer look for a good comparison. But, for me, I want to purchase from someplae with good support. Not that Euro has no support, but in LA, I have Ultramitre (located about 10 min away) selling and servicing AMP, and I have Active Sales (located about 35 min away) selling and servicing Cassise. Parts, Nails, service would be local in my case. For instance if the Euro is equal to Cassise or AMP on performance, and close on price, I will favor the local buy. But this is just me. I am not ruling out the Euro, I just don't have them close by. So the bennies of the machine need to stand very well.

JRB,
I am guessing you have the 299 or the 2999m.
We are in the same boat you were. Old and tired machines, and looking to update. The lure to purchase same band is strong because that is what we know. So if I leap out of the box, I want to see where I will land.

Reynard:
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

Lance:
I have been seeing the same thing. the AMP is better suited to production. And Cassise is a hare more for the custom side. At the show, I tried to get a perfect join from both. It may have been the setup on the show machine, but I kept on getting a prodcution join on the AMP. It could just be me, and not the machine(very likely).

Alan:
1) An air-nailer at the joiner.
or
2) A MasterClamp Shadow Box clamp.

Reynard:
The time to do this is how long?

Po':
Maybe it is the saw/chopper?
or
maybe the adjuster threads on the AMP are too "slippery". A bit of thread lok (just a biddy bit) may keep them in place better?

Dermot:
I have seen the tricked out machines:
Cassise and AMP have Uber-versions on steroids. Does Euro have one? Pistorious? Others?

You still need to data entry the mldg the first time. They have a lmtd mldg bank. But in all cases (at least for Cassise and AMP) you get what I would call a production join. We may do allot of frames, but we are, in LA, a small jobber. As such we do quality not quantity. Our competition have the auto-machines. This is why they are not the competition. And why we do not what to compete with them. Let them do what they do. They want large jobs, and work to pass in and out of the door(low maragin). Get the quality, and get the margin.

Back to machines:
I like the clamping jaws of the Cassise over the AMP. They really give a join equal to a vice, in an easy fashion. But again, it may be that I am not good on the AMP.

How does the Euro clamp?

How many of you still vice and glue and THEN put the **** thing in the V-nailer? If you need to do this let us know. And why?

As for pressure:
As I understand it:
The AMP has three cylinders.
One for the Rebate.
One for the Plunger.
One for the Nail.

The Cassise has two:
One for the Rebate.
And one for the Plunger and Nail. But the cylinder for this operation is a two part cylinder, and works in dual action. One then the other.

I do not know what pressures can be regulated on what machines.

On opins on what drivers are stronger/strongest as for going into the frame all the way? Inotherwords: The more "power" cylinder?

Long.

Very Long.

Sorry.

So Sorry.

marc
 
Marc, I sure hope you stopped to take a breath in there somewhere.

The Euro does indeed have a retrofit table for the 9009 that will take 6X6 moulding. And the new ones are coming with that table on it. (I assume).

Support and parts for the Euro machines come from John Knoell & Son, New Britain, PA. Phone 1-800-220-1880. You might want to call for technical questions on these machines.

(Gotta go look at the rest of your post)

Clamping - if you can picture a pneumatic frame vise, this is similar to the way a Euro clamps. It has a positionable cylinder with a self adjusting shoe (for pinning other than 90 degree angles) that is set for the width of the moulding and locked down on the table via a slot in the center of the table. There are 2 adjustable fences, one for each leg of moulding, that can be set for 90,60,45,30 degree corners. The clamp is foot actuated and holds the moulding firmly against the 2 fences until the underpinner driver head is postitioned and the "fire" button is pushed. Then this stout hold down bar lowers on the moulding corner and the v-nail is inserted. I have never had to adjust the amount of insertion. The machine does poplar or ash on the same pneumatic setting (about 130 p.s.i.). I operate it with a small Campbell Hausfield compressor in the basement. I use 7mm, 10mm, and 12mm v-nails also from Knoell & Son.

(Back to the post again)

As far as using glue and a vise first, I never do. I apply glue with this custom made glue applicator (my index finger) and it goes directly into the underpinner. About the only thing I use a vise for is deep shadow box moulding and certain other applications which I deem needs long term clamping.

I have some old literature on Euros that show 12 distributors in the Lower 48 and 4 in Canada. I am sure any of them could give help to those wanting more information.

Framerguy
 
I'm with Framerguy I have never used a vice (bar for the very first frame I made) or straps for general frames, just glue and straight into the underpinner, I have a manual Euro and can push the joints together (I have strong hands) if the need arises which is seldom, in fact I know of no framer in Ireland who still uses a vice for general bespoke/custom framing.

Marc and all others

Thanks for this thread, which is a great insight into underpinners, we have a limited range of mouldings and other supplies available in Ireland so problems tend not to surface until a distributor brings in some new mouldings or supplies and by then it can be to late.

I will be at the framing show in Birmingham this weekend and if I see any new innovations I will let you guys know.

smiley.gif
 
Marc...why don't you check out the new CTD underpinner. They're made right over in your neighborhood somewhere. http://www.ctdsaw.com/ Their multi fingered top clamp is interesting and the new nailer handles up to 5" wide moulding. I've never actually seen one of these beasts so can't really say if good or bad but being as they're so close it might be worth looking into.
 
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm. Good stuff.

Gerold,
Thanks for the links, and the mail directly. I am glad you chimed in on The Grumble. As it turns out I do have a Euro distributor just up the street. I did not know this untill this friday. I really should stop taking those Rufis so much. I seem to be missing out on some of the good parts. They sell them (Euro, not Rufis). They use them on all frame assembly(Euro, not Rufis). They have parts, and know what goes where, and why(for Euro, and Rufis). A very "intuitive" machine. Not having used one before, it was like buttah(with or without rufis).

I like the way the rebate clamp toggle it right in the unit that holds the rebate. Inotherwords, to adjust the clamp, you reach for the clamp, not around the side of the machine.

I also like the way you can play slinky with the v-shaped nail strips. Like a bunch of Shangalolo's. Cool!

For Frank:
We have a CTD 45 in the shop. We bought it from CTD, and picked it up downtown. They are close to where Active Sales is.

I took a look at CTDs site. The hold-down looks like a new approach, but the rebate clamp strip appears to be liberally borrowed straight from the AMP.

Some other things I have found out:
The word or term V-nail is owned by AMP. So they are the only machine that uses a v-nail, and everybody else, very subtlely, uses a different word when they mean v-nail. It now makes sense why at the show, the vendors kept calling them underpinners and not v-nailers. Let's home someone doesn't name a machine "The Underpinner."

Other questions:
Does anyone have a Pistorious underpinner (notice I did not say v-na**er?). Ooopps, ****, I said it. Just when I try not to say it. **** **** and go to ****. Why the **** can I not say **** or ****? What about ****** or ******** or even *******? ***** ******* ****** who in the **** is the ****** who is editing out my ******* ******* posts? What is this? The ******* Grumble police?

But I digress . . .
 
I've been using AMPs for quite awhile now with very few problems (aside from the stray nail through the back of the frame). I've used Cassise, but I found that at least the one I used had a tendency to jam. There used to be a method for joining 6" frames and under that I used to use, but I don't talk about that anymore :D
 
Amazing as it may seem, I have been labouring under the missapprehension that our u/pinner was a Cassese 89 and have just found it is a C.S.830. Howzat for a useless bit of information.
 
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