Judgmental Terrier Manager
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Sep 1, 2000
Jacksonville Beach, FL USA
Sunshine Frames
It seems that the folks at PFM have been giving out email addresses to the vendors without notifying the attendees of WCAF of their intent to do so.
I pay a fair price to insure that unwanted emails are rejected by my server and intend for it to be a tool for communication, not an avenue for solicitation.
I feel this is a breech of confidentiality on the part of PFM and am intending to tell them so.
Anyone else who is so inclined, feel free to join me.
Yes, I've been getting hit with WCAF/PFM-related SPAM. It started yesterday.
I guess next year, I won't pre-register. :(
I received an email from Bruce Gherman, publisher at PFM, with an apology and a promise to have my name deleted from the vendors email lists.

I appreciate the quick response even though I am still miffed that they would have released the email addresses to the vendors to begin with.

Their reasoning is to allow the vendors to supply us with show special information. This may be valuable to some people, not to others, but I believe permission should be asked and granted before anyone divulges anyone else's email address to a third party. A simple check-box on the registration form would have taken care of it.

I guess my rant was triggered by the continuous flow of email from both WCAF and PMA/PPFA about their respective shows. I guess to some extent they are fighting for their lives, and to some extent I should care.
So that's why I'm getting inundated with spam from (framing & Art) vendor's I didn't even know existed?

I'm going to complain, that's not nice.
check the archives, guys. I've complained about this on and off for several years now. Getting hit with all this stuff I don't want or need, particularly certian LE publishers that think because I sell LEs I want and need their stuff.

Didin't think, tho, it could be the trade rags. I thought these guys were lurking on G and HHers and emailingus from there.

I also love all thejunk I get in the mail. If I need lighted posters for my windows, I'll buy them, thanks much. Had a salesperson call on that and tell me how cool they loook. Yeah, I'll light my windows with them and turn off thehalogens. :mad: :mad:
Originally posted by tnframer408:
I'll light my windows with them and turn off thehalogens.
Great idea, halogens are waaaaaay out of date!
Add me to the list of people that think this is WRONG. My inbox has been full of junkmail-and I won't open anything from anyone I don't know. I delete all of these without reading them.

From now on before I register for a PFM show, I'm setting up an address on hotmail that can die a natural death when it gets filled over it's quota. Shouldn't have to do that, but PFM should NOT feel that it is their right to give your address to anyone or everyone.
Although we at United do not use e-mail to solicit customers, I do have a question.

If a vendor sends an advertisement that is directed at a business in the industry the vendor is in, is this truly spam?

Going to trade shows for education and seeing new products is one of the most productive things a framer can do to make themselves more profitable. I can understand the hatred for unsolicited e-mails that have nothing to do with your business such as the plethora of e-mails I receive that advertise Viagra, etc., but e-mails related to your industry I do not consider to be spam.

[ 01-21-2004, 08:56 AM: Message edited by: Peter Ackerman ]
Originally posted by Peter Ackerman:
If a vendor sends an advertisement that is directed at a business in the industry the vendor is in, is this truly spam?
Truly? Yes.

Simply stated, spam is unsolicited marketing via email. It makes no difference whether or not the recipient is in the market for the product or not. The reason is that the recipient bears the burden of the cost. Why should I pay for something that I haven't asked for?
Peter, I see your point, but the issue is not one of content, it is one of consent. I see unsolicited emails much as I see unsolicited faxes. I pay for the technology and the service, and in the case of a fax, the materials, not for someone else's purposes. I view any email as spam if it arrives without my previous consent that it be sent.

Michael, I do remember your posts. This is the first time I have been able to specifically identify the cause of the problem (all the emails refered to the WCAF show), so it is the first time I have been able to effectively react. It seems to have worked.

Edit: Looks Like David beat me to the punch.

[ 01-21-2004, 09:20 AM: Message edited by: wpfay ]
This is interesting.

If we buy a mailing list and send out flyers to a few thousand potential customers who just might be interested in our framing services, is it snail-mail spam (e.g. junk mail?)

Or do we make a distinction between their junk email and our junk snail-mail?

What about unsolicited phone calls from publishers or suppliers?

I find the email annoying, but the easiest to deal with since I can set up filters and block specific senders.

I wish I could do that with the phone.
I have the same problem with my FAX, which I only turn on now if someone calls to send me a fax, getting Fax-spam.

It usually is something that I can/might use in my business but at the moment I'm not.

Ron made a great point which I really think has changed my mind on the subject. I do mailings...? need we say any more?

just one (old) guys opinion :D
Let me get this straight.

You pre-register for trade show you obviously plan to attend.

You receive e-mails from vendors about specials at the show.

You are upset about receiving these e-mails.

What is wrong with you people.

Seems to me that this is good use of e-mail.

How can someone get your permission to send you e-mail?

Phone call? - you hate that

Snail mail?- You hate that

These e-mails were sent to people who are going attend the show. What is the problem. It seems these e-mails are directed at just the type of people who could use the info.

[ 01-21-2004, 09:47 AM: Message edited by: factsframer ]
I view it as akin to the telemarketing do-not-call list. One of the exemptions to this list are those companies with whom one has an existing relationship e.g. banks.

They can call with impunity. Likewise if I have an account with United, let 'em send me stuff. But I don't want to hear from M & M. – that's spam; and they risk me never again renewing my account with them.
Originally posted by Ron Eggers:
If we buy a mailing list and send out flyers to a few thousand potential customers who just might be interested in our framing services, is it snail-mail spam (e.g. junk mail?)
The difference is that with junk snail-mail the sender is paying for the majority of the cost (everything but the disposal). Spam costs the sender almost nothing, but costs the recipient the bandwidth to download it, not to mention the time to sort through it or set the filters up to deal with it.
Your home address, or post office box, and your telephone, are all your personal property. One normally will give out their address or phone number, to someone they wish to hear from, such as in the case of a call, personal visit or a letter.

If I give out my home address to you and tell you to stop by sometime, does that mean I am inviting your entire family, your cousins, your friends? Is it reasonable of me to expect you to sell my address to any company who thinks they can profit from having it?

Having an e-mail address is exactly the same thing, it is your personal property. Giving out your e-mail address to a friend or your family or even a business you are doing business with, is much the same thing.

You give out your address to people who you trust will treat it properly, for the reasons you gave it to them. If that person or company turns around and gives or sells it to another person or company, they are breaking your trust.

Just because a certain behavior becomes common practice, it does not mean it is right or acceptable.

In answer to Ron's query about us, as a business, sending out mailers or advertising specials, to our customers. If we did not make it clear to them when we asked for their address, that we would be doing so, yes it is junk mail. Any unsolicited mail, snail or e, that is sent to your property, is junk mail, no matter how important the sender thinks it is.

Based on this, yes, Picture Framing Magazine is in the wrong, they broke your trust, you have a right to feel offended.

Some people will look at it as "business is business", and justify it that way. We have all seen movies of gangsters killing someone, then as they lay there dying, say " It's just business, don't take it personally." Just because someone can come up with a plausible sounding reason for a behavior or action, does not make it right.

The only way to stop junk mail is to never, ever, respond to it monetarily. Also, always let the source know that you are offended.


[ 01-21-2004, 11:24 AM: Message edited by: JRB ]
I do business with United. If United chose to send me an email about a great new product, I wouldn't have a problem with that. If United sold my address to any and all vendors at a trade show, I would have a serious problem with those tactics. Just my (and apparently a lot of others) thought on the subject.

[ 01-21-2004, 01:37 PM: Message edited by: Maryann ]
For a bunch of framers who feel it is a waste of time to delete a few e-mails that are related to the business you are in, I find it amazing you seem to find the free time to devote to this forum.
Hi factsframer,
Welcome to the Grumble.

The difference I see in deleting unsolicited emails and participating on a forum is that the times that I do the latter are of my own choosing and generally lead to some benefit in my business or personal life. Having to view and delete emails, regardless of their relative pertinence to my business, is something that is foisted upon me from the outside, therefore an expenditure of time not of my own choosing.

That is beside the point. What I was "grumbling" about was the fact that the PFM/WCAF folks had, without asking permission, forwarded my email address to third parties that in turn started using that information to contact me in a solicitous manner. I matters little to me what the content of those emails were. The fact that PFM acted as they did was the point of my post.

The information that the vendors included might, or might not be of value. If I were to choose to search out that information, I would find links to the show specials on any of a number of emails I have received from PFM (which I agreed to by providing them my email address), but I don't see how anyone can justify a breech of privacy by providing my address to any third party.

To answer your somewhat rhetorical jab "What is wrong with you people." I would have to say that you have entered into one of the most diverse and well behaved forum on the INTERNET where you have limitless opportunity to learn and teach...each in their own way, and if that is wrong....well, these are my people and I respect what they have to say, and try as much as possible to treat them with the respect they deserve. I may not necessarily agree on every point, but I have found out that most points taken are well thought out.
I hope, to some degree, I have answered your question.