WCAF - LED bulb comparison
- Thread starter cjmst3k
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Rob Markoff
PFG, Picture Framing God
Chris-
Thanks for bringing the FEIT/Lowes bulb to my attention. It ranked at the top 2- because of the Energy Star rating (qualifies it for energy company rebates) and the extremely low price point at Costco. It is NOT as bright as the Home Depot lamp and the output pattern was slightly less uniform, but you can't beat it for the $.
Thanks for bringing the FEIT/Lowes bulb to my attention. It ranked at the top 2- because of the Energy Star rating (qualifies it for energy company rebates) and the extremely low price point at Costco. It is NOT as bright as the Home Depot lamp and the output pattern was slightly less uniform, but you can't beat it for the $.
cjmst3k
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
- Joined
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- 4,414
Rob, that's great! Having installed roughly 30-40 in my shop over the last 3 months and another 30 to go, I've been very happy with the color temperature (kelvin) and brightness, particularly for the money. I wish they were 5% to 10% brighter, however no one would say that my gallery is dark at all. I didn't realize it qualified for rebates. Do you know if that includes in VA?
I was happily paying $27.99 per bulb at Lowes for the first 20 under the Utilitech name. Once I realized the Feit at Costco was the exact same bulb for only $19.99 per bulb, I bought 20 of them on the spot. Identical design and performance.
Which bulb was #1, and how well did it compare to the above?
Which model bulb is this at Costco? What are the specs? (Wattage/equivalent, lumens, color temp., CRI, etc.)
:kaffeetrinker_2: Rick
Late last year I bought all new track heads and ditched my halogens for CFL reflector lamps. I like the amount of light for the wattage involved, but the color is a little pinker than it could be. Anyway I've gotten used to it and it's fine, but eventually I'd like to upgrade to LEDs.
It's funny, but when I open in the morning I actually like the fact that it takes a few minutes for the CFLs to ramp up to full brightness. It seems "civilized" somehow.
:kaffeetrinker_2: Rick
Late last year I bought all new track heads and ditched my halogens for CFL reflector lamps. I like the amount of light for the wattage involved, but the color is a little pinker than it could be. Anyway I've gotten used to it and it's fine, but eventually I'd like to upgrade to LEDs.
It's funny, but when I open in the morning I actually like the fact that it takes a few minutes for the CFLs to ramp up to full brightness. It seems "civilized" somehow.
Maybe with the rebates it makes sense, but I went into the local hardware store the other day to get a lamp for a new fixture and compared LED with Fluorescent. These were the "comparable to a 60W conventional incandescent" variety. They both put out the same lumens and consumed the same watts. The LED was 3 times the price and was supposed to last 4 times as long.
So for the average residential consumer, or somewhere that the color is not super critical (and I don't know which is better, just saying), I just can't see spending 3 times the price just for the hopes that I'll use it 4 times as long. Now, if it was $3 versus $1 and 4 years versus 1 year, that would be different. But 25,000 hours is a long, long time. Under average residential use, in say a bathroom or bedroom, of 2 hours a day (probably less), that's 35 years, or about 26 years for the breakeven. I know that I am not going to risk staying with the same light bulb for over 25 years to save a little bit.
Sorry, but I still don't see the viability of LED being there yet, at least not as far as the energy efficiency/economy goes.
So for the average residential consumer, or somewhere that the color is not super critical (and I don't know which is better, just saying), I just can't see spending 3 times the price just for the hopes that I'll use it 4 times as long. Now, if it was $3 versus $1 and 4 years versus 1 year, that would be different. But 25,000 hours is a long, long time. Under average residential use, in say a bathroom or bedroom, of 2 hours a day (probably less), that's 35 years, or about 26 years for the breakeven. I know that I am not going to risk staying with the same light bulb for over 25 years to save a little bit.
Sorry, but I still don't see the viability of LED being there yet, at least not as far as the energy efficiency/economy goes.
Rob Markoff
PFG, Picture Framing God
David -
(Sorry Paul C- another shameless "plug") - In the Lighting Class, we demonstrated CFL reflector floods adjacent to LED PAR replacements and also CFL "A" type replacements and "A" type LED replacements.
First of all - it isn't an Apples to Apples comparison. For "residential" lighting, a BR type or "A" type lamp is most often used and one does not want the intense, focused quality of a PAR type lamp that IS very desirable in a commercial and especially gallery setting. Comparing the light output and "quality" of light between CFL and LED lamps isn't fair.
Comparing cost of acquisition and energy use is MOOT if the output is not acceptable for the intended purpose. Also, throwing an "A" type lamp into a discussion about PAR replacements is an unfair basis of comparison. For the application you are describing, David - I agree completely.
Interestingly, for home use in my can lights (Pot lights for you Canadians), I love a BR 30 Halogena lamp from Phillips that draws 60 watts. They now cost about $6 each. I just found a dim-able energy start rated LED replacement with the equivalent lumen output for $15 but it only draws 13 watts. That means I can run 4.6 x as many lamps for the same wattage. Plus, I should be able to get a rebate from my utility company which will bring the cost way down.
However-
I would no more want an incandescent or halogen or LED BR type lamp in my gallery showroom as I would a CFL replacement. They just don't do the job as intended and the quality of light looks BAD.
It isn't just my opinion but was almost the unanimous opinion of the entire class.
THAT is what we were able to demonstrate in the lighting lab with side by side comparisons of many different types of lamps and also different color temperatures of the same type of lamp by category. (LED:LED vs Compact Fluorescent:Compact Fluorescent) Seeing the side by side comparison could save a bunch of $$ if it helps buy the "right" lamp in the first place.
So price is no factor when the lamp is not "right" for the application.
For a gallery/showroom/commercial environment, the cost of LED replacements with Energy Star ratings (and energy company rebates) has reached the point that it is starting to make sense. When we started teaching the lighting class, a single PAR type LED was $65 and the lumen output was ridiculously low. Today you can get double the output for $19 before rebate. In two years, we won't even be having this discussion.
(Sorry Paul C- another shameless "plug") - In the Lighting Class, we demonstrated CFL reflector floods adjacent to LED PAR replacements and also CFL "A" type replacements and "A" type LED replacements.
First of all - it isn't an Apples to Apples comparison. For "residential" lighting, a BR type or "A" type lamp is most often used and one does not want the intense, focused quality of a PAR type lamp that IS very desirable in a commercial and especially gallery setting. Comparing the light output and "quality" of light between CFL and LED lamps isn't fair.
Comparing cost of acquisition and energy use is MOOT if the output is not acceptable for the intended purpose. Also, throwing an "A" type lamp into a discussion about PAR replacements is an unfair basis of comparison. For the application you are describing, David - I agree completely.
Interestingly, for home use in my can lights (Pot lights for you Canadians), I love a BR 30 Halogena lamp from Phillips that draws 60 watts. They now cost about $6 each. I just found a dim-able energy start rated LED replacement with the equivalent lumen output for $15 but it only draws 13 watts. That means I can run 4.6 x as many lamps for the same wattage. Plus, I should be able to get a rebate from my utility company which will bring the cost way down.
However-
I would no more want an incandescent or halogen or LED BR type lamp in my gallery showroom as I would a CFL replacement. They just don't do the job as intended and the quality of light looks BAD.
It isn't just my opinion but was almost the unanimous opinion of the entire class.
THAT is what we were able to demonstrate in the lighting lab with side by side comparisons of many different types of lamps and also different color temperatures of the same type of lamp by category. (LED:LED vs Compact Fluorescent:Compact Fluorescent) Seeing the side by side comparison could save a bunch of $$ if it helps buy the "right" lamp in the first place.
So price is no factor when the lamp is not "right" for the application.
For a gallery/showroom/commercial environment, the cost of LED replacements with Energy Star ratings (and energy company rebates) has reached the point that it is starting to make sense. When we started teaching the lighting class, a single PAR type LED was $65 and the lumen output was ridiculously low. Today you can get double the output for $19 before rebate. In two years, we won't even be having this discussion.
I agree completely.
I assume you mean "In two years..". If so, that may well be, but that's what we've been hearing for, how long now? I won't believe it until I see it. "Everyone" is saying it's here already, and I just don't see it. UNLESS the light quality is very, very important.
I prefer the light quality of LED, versus CFL. I don't care for the flickering of CFL. We havent switched out our gallery from CFL to LED, but will when we move. Power consumption wise, you won't see a huge benefit between CFL and LED. (but you certainly will from incandescent)
At the house, we switched to CFL in the late 80s and switched almost entirely to LED recently. Standard 60w equiv A bulbs are only about $12, after instant rebate. (for lamps) When remodeling the kitchen recently, we eliminated the final incandescents. (6 recessed light fixtures) They were replaced with LED conversion kits, which I think were about $18 each. (including the whole fixture, lense, etc) They look much better than the old ones, and only use about 12 or 13 W to give off the same color temperature and 60w equivalent light. (using 78w total, instead of 360w) The spread of light is also much wider, and we have them on dimmers. The old ones didn't light up the bricks on the fireplace, while these do. While ~90% of the electricity was being used to make heat (which would require additional A/C in the summer), this is no longer the case. I also won't have to climb up there to replace them until I'm an old man
We also went with LED strips under the kitchen cabinets. They're just as bright as the florescent fixtures under the old ones, which seemed like they had to be replaced yearly.
It may take a year or more to justify the higher cost, but after that you're saving money (and power, and heat load) every year.
The technology will still mature much, IMO, but it's to the point now where it is practical. I see LED in a lot of restaurants, cruise ships, and even in Vegas at casinos.
At the house, we switched to CFL in the late 80s and switched almost entirely to LED recently. Standard 60w equiv A bulbs are only about $12, after instant rebate. (for lamps) When remodeling the kitchen recently, we eliminated the final incandescents. (6 recessed light fixtures) They were replaced with LED conversion kits, which I think were about $18 each. (including the whole fixture, lense, etc) They look much better than the old ones, and only use about 12 or 13 W to give off the same color temperature and 60w equivalent light. (using 78w total, instead of 360w) The spread of light is also much wider, and we have them on dimmers. The old ones didn't light up the bricks on the fireplace, while these do. While ~90% of the electricity was being used to make heat (which would require additional A/C in the summer), this is no longer the case. I also won't have to climb up there to replace them until I'm an old man
We also went with LED strips under the kitchen cabinets. They're just as bright as the florescent fixtures under the old ones, which seemed like they had to be replaced yearly.
It may take a year or more to justify the higher cost, but after that you're saving money (and power, and heat load) every year.
The technology will still mature much, IMO, but it's to the point now where it is practical. I see LED in a lot of restaurants, cruise ships, and even in Vegas at casinos.
That's only helpful in climes with more cooling- than heating-degree-days... Not a feature of Vermont
That's only helpful in climes with more cooling- than heating-degree-days... Not a feature of Vermont
True it HELPS you in the winter!
Just like a small electric heater for each bulb.The opposite would be true for our southern state friends. The cooling expenses would probably save enough to pay for a case of bulbs every month.
FrameMakers
PFG, Picture Framing God
LOL, that reminds me of one of my shops that had a ton of halogens. At that time electric was not as expensive in comparison to natural gas as it is now. We turned off the gas and just left the tracks on all night. It stayed nice and toasty warm all winter long.
Frances M.
CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
For those of you who use LED bulbs over your design table: How many lumens are adequate? I have 4 very basic pendant lights over my design counter in which I've been using regular 100 watt bulbs. I'd like to move to LED but not sure how many lumens will be bright enough.
I tried an LED floodlight in one light but think a "regular type" bulb would work better as the 100 watt incandescents do give off a bit of light out the top as well and the flood lamp seemed to be so directed downward that I'm afraid the area would seem a bit dark.
I tried an LED floodlight in one light but think a "regular type" bulb would work better as the 100 watt incandescents do give off a bit of light out the top as well and the flood lamp seemed to be so directed downward that I'm afraid the area would seem a bit dark.
Rob Markoff
PFG, Picture Framing God
Hi Frances-
You are confusing your terminology.
Wattage (i.e. 100 watt bulbs) is only a measure of energy consumed and not how "bright" a lightbulb is.
Lumens are the measure of visible light output (emission) of a source. - But still not the measurement you are after.
What you are really asking is how many "foot-candles" of light you need to properly light your design counter.
A foot-candle is the illuminance cast on a surface by a one-candela source one foot away. This can be thought of as the amount of light that actually falls on a given surface. The foot-candle is equal to one lumen per square foot.
A properly illuminated design counter should have a minimum of 200 but preferably 300-500 foot-candles of illumination (from ALL sources - not just the pendant lights - which are task-based you should also have ambient light provided by "natural" sources or other lighting in the room).
Just because the light output of a bulb is, say 800 lumens - that doesn't mean that 800 lumens of light will reach the design counter - and how much light (and what color and intensity) are all factors that also need consideration. A single 800 lumen bulb from 12 feet away will have a different appearance on the design counter than one 4 feet away. If your design area is 4' x 4', the photo-metrics of a single bulb at 4' away may not evenly illuminate the intended area leaving "hot spots".
How the foot-candle illumination is achieved isn't something one could answer simply on a forum bulletin board because there are MANY variables and you have not given enough specifics of your environment. But I will try to give you some guidelines.
You may find this document helpful (or really confusing
) http://eeref.engr.oregonstate.edu/@api/deki/files/993/=Footcandle_Recommendations.pdfThere are several factors that determine how "bright" the light is over your design counter (and as you have already noted, how intense).
Getting the "proper" lighting over your design counter is a factor of what type of fixtures (pendants, crossed floods, fluorescent tubes with/without reflectors/troffers, etc.)
The fixture needs to be combined with distance from the surface (and placement needs to take into consideration aesthetics as well as functionality and also lamp type (as you also have indicated, just because you can screw a bulb into a fixture, the resulting light output might not be appropriate.)
A pendant fixture most likely designed for an "A" type bulb, though one could screw a BR or even PAR (most often referred to as a "spot or flood" type bulb) into the socket and it would light up.
Even "A" type bulbs have different output, and the length of the neck of the bulb (and A19 vs an A21 bulb) may cause the same pendant fixture to produce a different result.
Then you need to consider the "type" of light and whether or not you can "see" the bulb inside the fixture. The BEST "A" type LED replacement available today is really funky looking and is best used in a fixture with a shade or opaque glass.
It will soon be IMPOSSIBLE to find an "A" type incandescent lightbulb. It is also very hard to find an "LED" replacement "A" type bulb whose luminosity equals or is greater than an incandescent - and the cost to value just isn't there.
A good quality "A" type replacement bulb is about $18 Phillips Model # 422154 and it puts out 800 lumens and consumes 12.5 watts. That is considered to be about a "60 watt" replacement. The "problem" is that it puts out 2700K - which many in my class felt is a bit "too yellow". Remember, you are using your design counter to choose COLOR and the source and color temperature of your light can affect perception.
A halogen replacement like a GE's Model # 60ACL/H/RVL-TP6 is 2900K (which is the "sweet spot" people in the class thought looked best - 2900-3000K) but it only has 675 lumens of output and draws 60 WATTS! It costs about $8.
As you have experienced, the type of bulb (regardless of the type of light) plays a role. Are your pendants solid or transparent? Have you looked at an A21SBIF lamp? That is what I use in my pendants - but you need a porcelain socket because the lamp directs the light upwards and a plastic or phenolic socket will melt.
Finally, you may not be able to achieve "proper" lighting over a design counter if you depend solely on pendant type fixtures. I use pendants for "fill" lighting combined with four PAR type LED floods cross lighting each design station we have. So we are using a combination of incandescent (for now), Halogen and LED to get the color balance we prefer.)
SHAMELESS PLUG - I will be teaching a lighting class for the PPFA at the Educational Event they are hosting in Lake Geneva, WI on April 7-8.
Those are the funky A19 ones that we use in our lamps at home. They are actually about $12 each at the local Home Depot. (electric company has instant rebates, which are built into the price). There are several LED alternatives in the 800 lumen range, and most of them look like the old fashioned incandescent bulbs. (white globe) There is a 900 lumens bulb "65w equiv" that uses only 9w, and a 1100 lumen bulb "75w equiv" that uses 17w.
They announced a "100w equivalent" last year, which should be out very soon - if not already. I believe it will produce about 1700 lumens.
Mike
Rob Markoff
PFG, Picture Framing God
Thanks for posting the pics- Mike! That is one funky looking bulb and is indeed the one I was referring to!
You did say one critical criteria- you are using these bulbs in your home - and they are a fantastic lamp. We don't have the "instant" rebates available and that is a smokin' price.
Nonetheless, I (and others in the class) still found 2700K to be a bit too "yellow" for design work.
The 100 watt "replacement" is promising - but at what cost? And, if the color of the output of a bulb isn't right, all the energy savings in the world will not offset the potential loss of sales because what you are designing just doesn't "pop" or look right.
You did say one critical criteria- you are using these bulbs in your home - and they are a fantastic lamp. We don't have the "instant" rebates available and that is a smokin' price.
Nonetheless, I (and others in the class) still found 2700K to be a bit too "yellow" for design work.
The 100 watt "replacement" is promising - but at what cost
? And, if the color of the output of a bulb isn't right, all the energy savings in the world will not offset the potential loss of sales because what you are designing just doesn't "pop" or look right.Frances M.
CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Rob - Thanks for your extensive reply. Had your class not been in direct conflict with Jim Miller's shadow boxing course at WCAF I would certainly have signed up. I am certainly not alone in being confused about the new lighting terminology or technology and the guy at Home Depot hasn't got a clue.
"Finally, you may not be able to achieve "proper" lighting over a design counter if you depend solely on pendant type fixtures. I use pendants for "fill" lighting combined with four PAR type LED floods cross lighting each design station we have. So we are using a combination of incandescent (for now), Halogen and LED to get the color balance we prefer.)"
I have flourescents in the ceiling and tracks on my walls (currently incandescent) and am just trying to move towards LED without a major overhaul.
Mike - Thanks for your info and the photo.
"Finally, you may not be able to achieve "proper" lighting over a design counter if you depend solely on pendant type fixtures. I use pendants for "fill" lighting combined with four PAR type LED floods cross lighting each design station we have. So we are using a combination of incandescent (for now), Halogen and LED to get the color balance we prefer.)"
I have flourescents in the ceiling and tracks on my walls (currently incandescent) and am just trying to move towards LED without a major overhaul.
Mike - Thanks for your info and the photo.
Rob Markoff
PFG, Picture Framing God
Even the simplest of statements can be "confusing"
!"fluorescents" in the ceiling: T-8 or T-12 bulbs? What color temperature? Ceiling Height? Fixture type (troffer with cracked ice diffuser? Open troffer with louvers? - bare bulb in strip fixture? etc) Number of fixtures and location in proximity to the design counter?
"tracks on my walls" - height and distance away from walls? Type/size of fixture and quantity on tracks. Purpose of the tracks (ambient, task, accent)? What type of incandescent lamp in the fixture? BR, PAR, A type Size of lamp- 20, 30, 38, 40?
All of these things come into play.
You might not have to do an, "overhaul, but may be able to retro-fit existing fixtures with new and better (from an economy, color output, and intensity) lamps.
I'm happy to give you some guidelines, but any lighting designer needs more specifics. If you don't have good fundamentals (proper fixtures and location) to begin with, simply replacing lamps might be akin to putting rouge on a corpse.
T12's were discontinued/outlawed several years ago, because the T8's and magnetic transformers are so much more efficient. I think the T8's will be going away soon, too.
A lot of older buildings are finding the replacement T12's to be very difficult to find, and increasingly expensive.
Mike
A lot of older buildings are finding the replacement T12's to be very difficult to find, and increasingly expensive.
Mike
I have seen those "funky" lamps in the stores. I'm thinking the yellow housing is how they achieve their target color temp. It's funny that they have to use the "White Light When Lit" label. I haven't tried these, and I understand Rob's suggestion about using them in a covered fixture. Still, because they will be glowing "white" by the time the customer sees them, they might work OK in a pendant, as long as there isn't a heat issue using them base-up.
Rick
Rick
They can be mounted in either direction, but are not recommended in ENCLOSED fixtures. (like under a sealed glass dome). Even though they don't get hot, LEDs need ample cooling/air flow, and have an elaborate heatsink.
I was in a restaurant last weekend which had those exact bulbs in all of their can (ceiling) fixtures. Certainly not the most attractive solution, but the light was ample.
The light output is the standard 2700k, yellowish color you would get from an old incandescent bulb. The yellow plastic coating does indeed look WHITE when it is lit, and gives it the 2700 quality. It's also fully dimmable, providing you are using a modern dimmer that can handle CFL and LED bulbs.
I was in a restaurant last weekend which had those exact bulbs in all of their can (ceiling) fixtures. Certainly not the most attractive solution, but the light was ample.
The light output is the standard 2700k, yellowish color you would get from an old incandescent bulb. The yellow plastic coating does indeed look WHITE when it is lit, and gives it the 2700 quality. It's also fully dimmable, providing you are using a modern dimmer that can handle CFL and LED bulbs.
Rob Markoff
PFG, Picture Framing God
VERY good point, Rick. The #1 enemy for LED Lamps is HEAT. That's what all the fuss is about in the housing design - and why some LED bulbs cannot be used in an enclosed environment as it will short live the electronics.
You have two problems using an inverted lamp in a fixture- one is the heat affecting the socket/insulation on the wiring and the other is the effect of the heat on the electronics of the LED lamp. I will have to check with Phillips and see what the "official" word is on using the lamp pictured "inverted."
The picture of the box I quoted above shows it both ways, and says "Ideal for:" my guess is that the same heat sink works in both directions, and heat rises to cause the flow.
Of course, the same may not apply to all LED fixtures.
cjmst3k
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2006
- Posts
- 4,414
Rick, here's all the specs from the package:
FEIT ELECTRIC
Par30
DIMMABLE
Brightness 790 lumens
Estimated yearly cost $1.81 (Based on 3 hrs/day 11 cents/kWh)
Life:
22.8 years
Based on 3 hrs/day
25,000 Hours
(I estimated with my shop's use they would last about 10 years, except for those left on 24 hours a day)
Light Appearance:
3000K
Energy Used:
15 watts
Beam Spread:
38 degrees
"TRACK & RECESSED"
With my gallery ceiling tracks about 11.5' high, I've found that this bulb has a decent spread, but not too diluted, when it reaches the paintings. Between this Feit, and the identical but more expensive Utilitech, that they have that barely-there warmth without being yellow. I'm SO glad these are at a somewhat reasonable price. They're working great, with fairly ideal light output for use in the gallery. A little sharp for over-counter lighting, but my lights up there are an experiment currently, mixing standard curly warm florescent, a par 30 "reveal" and a par 30 led. Still figuring out the pros/cons of that.
Thanks, Chris. Those sound good in most respects, except the number of lumens is about 28% below what I am currently getting. Don't know what that translates into in terms of foot-candles, but I'm thinking the overall light level in the shop might be too low unless I added a number of new heads. This would be difficult as most of mine are on individual single-point fittings with down-rods.
:kaffeetrinker_2: Rick
:kaffeetrinker_2: Rick
cjmst3k
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
- Joined
- Apr 25, 2006
- Posts
- 4,414
Rick, one thing I read about 2 years ago when beginning my LED research (and I assume is accurate) is that LED bulbs don't read accurately on a Lumen meter. Perhaps it's the same reason bugs don't see the light? So I wouldn't use that as gospel to choose them, unless comparing LED to LED.
I would highly recommend picking one up, trying it, and seeing for yourself how it looks, regardless of what the Lumens/Kelvin/Foot-candles are.
...and the Footcandles of this bulb are:
125.1 Footcandles @ 3'
39.4 Footcandles at 5'
18.9 Footcandles at 8'
The bulbs are shining light on average at art 5' away, and are considerably bright at that distance and spread comfortably for a painting that is 30x30 +frame
We switched the shop over to LED today (from CFL), taking advantage of the electric company's $3 per bulb efficiency program offer. (A decade ago we did a similar program to switch from the old style bulbs to CFL, and many of those were still in service today. Back then, they did the whole plaza and even the outdoor lighting)
These things run about twice as cool as the CFL's, and look exactly like an old Edison bulb/incandescent flood. (except for a heat sink, which is hidden inside the fixture anyways) The ones we chose are 3000K, which is still in the warm range. (The CFL's they replaced were 2700k) It seems about 30% brighter in here, and really made a dramatic difference. (some were MR16 and G25 LED which use 6.5watts instead of 50watts, most were BR30 type 15w for track lights. 865 lumens) They come on instantly, have no mercury, no flickering, no uv/fading, and are dimmable. These are from TW Lighting company in MA.
Was this brand one of the ones reviewed in your class, Rob?
I highly recommended the programs offered by the utility companies.
These things run about twice as cool as the CFL's, and look exactly like an old Edison bulb/incandescent flood. (except for a heat sink, which is hidden inside the fixture anyways) The ones we chose are 3000K, which is still in the warm range. (The CFL's they replaced were 2700k) It seems about 30% brighter in here, and really made a dramatic difference. (some were MR16 and G25 LED which use 6.5watts instead of 50watts, most were BR30 type 15w for track lights. 865 lumens) They come on instantly, have no mercury, no flickering, no uv/fading, and are dimmable. These are from TW Lighting company in MA.
Was this brand one of the ones reviewed in your class, Rob?
I highly recommended the programs offered by the utility companies.
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SusanG
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I am truly psyched! Our local electric company now has some programs to help businesses with more energy efficient lighting. The rep is coming tomorrow. I am sure that I will have many questions. Reading over this thread has been a big help already. I told the rep that we had a class on lighting our stores and he was very impressed. Although I have not taken Rob's lighting class, I saw a short demo of the testing apparatus in another one of Rob's classes. Stay tuned!
Nice!
Our electric company keeps having programs, too. Prices have come down a lot since this thread started.
In the past 3 weeks, we got one of those automatic power strips with 2 Phlips A19 LED lamp bulbs for $19.99 shipped. Last week, we ordered 6 LED floods (BR30 type) for $3.33 each (shipped). They also came back to the store again, offering the $3 (any size) LED bulbs. Since we already converted last year, we didnt order any.
No duds so far, theyre all working fine.
Our electric company keeps having programs, too. Prices have come down a lot since this thread started.
In the past 3 weeks, we got one of those automatic power strips with 2 Phlips A19 LED lamp bulbs for $19.99 shipped. Last week, we ordered 6 LED floods (BR30 type) for $3.33 each (shipped). They also came back to the store again, offering the $3 (any size) LED bulbs. Since we already converted last year, we didnt order any.
No duds so far, theyre all working fine.
Jeff K
CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Just FYI, had the shop lighting redone by the utility company last year and go a 1099 for the value of the install.
Rob Markoff
PFG, Picture Framing God
Please bear in mind that "more efficient" does not necessarily mean "better looking" or "appropriate for my business". One really needs to physically see the lamps in action to determine if the color is appropriate for designing and also for selling ART and FRAMING!
If one receives a 1099 for the full value of the job, it may be possible to take a Section 179 deduction and write off the entire amount, which last year was up to 500K.
That's what accountants are for -
I wouldn't be afraid of having them do the work because of a potential 1099 - but I would ask my accountant and also the vendor to determine their protocol.
BTW - prices keep falling and the lumen output per watt increasing!
I just relamped much of my house. The BR30's I was using were at 60 watts for 690 lumens and the new LED's are at 13 watts for 760 lumens.
They look great @ 2700K and cost less than $10 each. That's like a 78% reduction in energy consumption for what I was almost paying per bulb for a Phillips Halogena.
I am looking at some 850 Lumen bulbs @ $30 each for some that are really high in the ceiling (22' high) and are a PIA to change. They have a 15 year rating.
There are now some really incredible 50 watt MR16 replacements that use 7.5 watts and a single LED with a reflector. They are $22 each (used to be $32) but still too spendy for me to relamp my entire kitchen - but the day is coming.
If one receives a 1099 for the full value of the job, it may be possible to take a Section 179 deduction and write off the entire amount, which last year was up to 500K.
That's what accountants are for -
I wouldn't be afraid of having them do the work because of a potential 1099 - but I would ask my accountant and also the vendor to determine their protocol.
BTW - prices keep falling and the lumen output per watt increasing!
I just relamped much of my house. The BR30's I was using were at 60 watts for 690 lumens and the new LED's are at 13 watts for 760 lumens.
They look great @ 2700K and cost less than $10 each. That's like a 78% reduction in energy consumption for what I was almost paying per bulb for a Phillips Halogena.
I am looking at some 850 Lumen bulbs @ $30 each for some that are really high in the ceiling (22' high) and are a PIA to change. They have a 15 year rating.
There are now some really incredible 50 watt MR16 replacements that use 7.5 watts and a single LED with a reflector. They are $22 each (used to be $32) but still too spendy for me to relamp my entire kitchen - but the day is coming.
Seriously, look for those electric company programs. If your electric company has a facebook page, you'll see them advertised there.
$3 - $3.33 is what we have been paying per bulb, with the programs. Home improvement stores also have them at reduced prices, but not as low as $3. (instant rebate figured into price)
When we had them do our plaza for CFL several years ago, they didnt send 1099. That almost sounds odd, since they were paid by someone else - not you. But I'm not an accountant.
$3 - $3.33 is what we have been paying per bulb, with the programs. Home improvement stores also have them at reduced prices, but not as low as $3. (instant rebate figured into price)
When we had them do our plaza for CFL several years ago, they didnt send 1099. That almost sounds odd, since they were paid by someone else - not you. But I'm not an accountant.
We didn't either, when we did some retrofitting several years ago. But, it makes sense - normally, in order to get the upgrades in question you would have to have profit to pay for them. The IRS would collect taxes on that profit, minus any deduction(s), so they should still get them. You definitely need to work with your accountant to determine the expensability of such improvements (regardless of whether they were paid for by you or the utility).
SusanG
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
So the energy auditor came out....
-the electric co would do all work
-they want to install new dimmers as they say the old ones might flicker, new exit signs too.
-they suggested Phillips Endura LED Par 30 Flood 12 or 13 Watt, 720 or 900 lumens
-can use existing fixtures
costs will break even in 16 months.
-says my electric bill will be 1/5 of what it is now.
-we tried out a few bulbs, WOW! What a difference.
-the electric co would do all work
-they want to install new dimmers as they say the old ones might flicker, new exit signs too.
-they suggested Phillips Endura LED Par 30 Flood 12 or 13 Watt, 720 or 900 lumens
-can use existing fixtures
costs will break even in 16 months.
-says my electric bill will be 1/5 of what it is now.
-we tried out a few bulbs, WOW! What a difference.