Help Watercolor paper issue

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JBergelin

JBergelin

CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Joined
Dec 14, 2004
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374
Loc
Big Rapids, Michigan
My customer brought in a water color by Secunda that has been rolled up for about 15 years. I am not sure of the paper weight but I think it is about 260 lb (semi heavy).

It has deckled edges so we want to float mount it. I have hindged it to 8 ply rag board and the center is flat as is the top and bottom - the sides keep rolling up

we have had it flat in a foam core folder for about 3 weeks and appear to be getting nowhere. (when I open the folder with the art down it looks to be flat but when I turn it over the sides continue to curl.)

suggestions please
 
Jeanne...

I'll probably be pounced on for saying this, but if it was my piece, I'd lightly mist the back and weight it under plate glass or a plate mirror with weights on it.

Or, you could always roll it the other direction and leave it sit that way for 15 years...

:p
 
It needs to rest for a while

This is another example of a client asking for something that can't be done properly. The piece was stored improperly, and now you're asked to fix it. You can skip the float and mat the thing, and reasonably expect the mat and glass to flatten it out in the frame. (Where is it written that a deckled edge has to be visible?) Otherwise you can store it properly, flat and weighted, and come back to it in a few months or however long it takes to relax the thing. You probably can't introduce moisture and heat into the flattening process because it's a water media, so time is the only effective way to relax this piece of paper.

I imagine there will be some on this board who have some ideas of how to flatten this in a hurry, and they may have a point, but I personally get tired of people expecting us to do the "inadvisable". I'd rather lose the sale than do it wrong just to satsify the client's impatience.
 
Watercolour paper has a memory and since it has been stored rolled for many years the likelihood of it ever flattening is nil. (Yes, misting can help for the short-term, but it will eventually curl again)

You can still float it; minimize the amount of air space depth to about a 1/4", use pass through hinges and allow the curled edges to gently touch the glass.

What I like best about this type of framing, is it will never be mistaken for a print; something that can happen when an original watercolour is typically double matted.

Have your customer embrace the curl.
 
Actually, you CAN lightly mist the BACK of the paper, wipe it so the dampness is over the whole back, then either weight it with blotter papers on it so the moisture can go somewhere, or you can put into a heat press for or so 5 minutes and then weight it again with blotter paper (in case) till it is cool.

The moisture on the back will never reach the front and do any harm to the image. This technique was taught to me by a water color painter who had been doing it that way for over 20 years with her own art with no damage to the image.

No amount of matting will make this thing stay flat in a frame. It will always still want to go back to a curled shape and will pull away from the mat opening.

Sorry, Slim...this is not something "special". it is fixed this way all the time.

Use distilled water.
 
Be careful of doing anything to original work. If I found out some framer was wetting/misting/heating my watercolours....I'd be very upset.
 
Julie Walsh said:
Be careful of doing anything to original work. If I found out some framer was wetting/misting/heating my watercolours....I'd be very upset.
Click to expand...

If I was the artist and found out someone was rolling my watercolors I'd be even more upset!

:popc:
 
framah said:
Actually, you CAN lightly mist the BACK of the paper, wipe it so the dampness is over the whole back, then either weight it with blotter papers on it so the moisture can go somewhere, or you can put into a heat press for or so 5 minutes and then weight it again with blotter paper (in case) till it is cool.

The moisture on the back will never reach the front and do any harm to the image. This technique was taught to me by a water color painter who had been doing it that way for over 20 years with her own art with no damage to the image.

No amount of matting will make this thing stay flat in a frame. It will always still want to go back to a curled shape and will pull away from the mat opening.

Sorry, Slim...this is not something "special". it is fixed this way all the time.

Use distilled water.
Click to expand...

I just did this with 9 pieces that the artist shipped to us rolled ... I always do this ... we need to get over this phoebia that we can't touch artwork ... I for one know what I am doing and have no such phoebia and to date have yet to destroy or damage a piece using carefully prescribed techniques. Moist, heat press, weight.
 
Well, Julie... you can be as upset as you want. That still doesn't make you right. First, the memory of the paper is changed with the dampening of the fibers. It relaxes them and allows you to realign them in to the position you want which is flat.

As i said and you might want to research this out.. it is something the experienced framers do all the time to watercolors that have serious waves or curling to them.

It has no effect on the piece and is not in any way harmful to it when done the right way.

If you are serious about not wanting to do something like this, feel free to refer it to a more knowledgeable framer.

By the way, allowing the paper to touch the glass is a no-no. The whole idea is to keep the art away from the glass. You really might want to become a bit more knowledgeable about these things before you do damage to someones work.
 
I've been watercolour painting for going on 30 years...I know paper and as an artist would not want a framer misting my work. That being said, once my work is sold, it is out of my control. Fortunately, as a framer trained in conservation/preservation framing, I have the ability to influence how the piece is framed. Watercolour right up against the glass is of course a no-no...everyone knows that. However, with plenty of air space between the glass and the art, a rolled corner lightly touching will not cause any serious damage.
 
Jeanne,
If the sides are curling too much, you may want to consider adding hinges to the sides as well.
 
To my mind, flattening this painting counts as restoration to some extent. Not really in the framer's remit. Leaving it under weight for a few days (weeks?) is all that the customer can reasonably expect and all that it is reasonably safe to do. Wetting is risky, and as an artist myself, I would not appreciate someone doing this to my work.

But.....putting it in a vac press between two boards for a few mins may work. The heat and pressure will draw moisture out of the boards and relax the paper. Switch off the heat and vacuum, but don't release the pressure. Don't open the press until it is completely cool and the pressure has subsided slowly.

Beware. All paintings are different. What works on one can be disasterous on another. Traditional watercolors done with thin washes and using good quality paints are pretty tough and should stand this treatment. But and 'body color', gouache, tempera, etc is liable to be soluable and who knows what might happen.:icon11:
Without consulting the artist or at least having a deep knowledge if the techniques used, the procedure is best avoided.


I have a similar dilema at the mo. A photo that has been rolled. It's not a particually valuable item, but the guy brought it at a show and would be hard to replace. I have no qualms about drymounting it, but it has the photographers sticker on the back. (Why do they do that???!!!). OK I could try getting it off, put I don't know if the image will be damaged while doing this. I would have to remove all trace of adhesive. What do I tell the customer if I spoil his photo?
It's been under weight for weeks and is still curly. I will just mat it as usuall and see how it settles, but I fully expect it to be wavy in the frame. And it's glossy, which doesn't help.....
 
I've found that this is a good use for the warped foam boards. I clamp the watercolor between 2 boards with a slight reverse curve to the warp. Over time it helps flatten the paper without the overstress of a reverse roll.
 
I am not exactly a watercolor artist, but have done some watercolor paintings.
I always flatten my pieces before framing; lightly brush water on back (I don't like spray which is not as controlled as a brush) and weigh it down with whatever is handy, for a few days. But again, this is my own work; if I mess it up, well, I know who to blame.

I would consider doing this for some of my customers, but I usually end up telling them how I would do it, and then let them do it themselves if they are willing. I guess it also depends on how valuable a piece is and how comfortable you are handling it.
When in doubt; don't do it.
 
I'm waiting for a conservation expert to jump in here....What I think they would suggest, if humidification was necessary to straighten out the piece, is to do so passively by introducing water vapor from a moistened blotter. Applying water directly to the art is risky and unnecessary.
After the piece is humidified, it is then dried using a series of blotters and pressure.
If I remember the reasoning it is to uniformly humidify and dehumidify the paper so there are no differentials in the expansion and contraction of the fibers that will take place in the process.
 
I do alot of framing for watercolor artists who paint on the heavy weight paper. They paintings usually come in looking like a potato chip. I use 2 sheets white of 4 ply rag board. I spray one with distilled water and wipe it lightly to make it evenly damp. I lay the watercolor on the damp board (face up) and put the dry board onto the face of the work. I put a sheet of glass on top and some weights. A couple days later, I exchange the boards with 2 more dry ones, and weight 2 days more. It has worked really well for me for a number of years now. No problems. As a matter of fact...it started with one artist and by word of mouth, I do this for about 10 artists now. And yes, I do charge to do this! :)
 
evartpat said:
I do alot of framing for watercolor artists who paint on the heavy weight paper. They paintings usually come in looking like a potato chip. I use 2 sheets white of 4 ply rag board. I spray one with distilled water and wipe it lightly to make it evenly damp. I lay the watercolor on the damp board (face up) and put the dry board onto the face of the work. I put a sheet of glass on top and some weights. A couple days later, I exchange the boards with 2 more dry ones, and weight 2 days more. It has worked really well for me for a number of years now. No problems. As a matter of fact...it started with one artist and by word of mouth, I do this for about 10 artists now. And yes, I do charge to do this! :)
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Now if only these artists would take a little time in preparing their paper by soaking it in the bath and laying it on a solid board and gumstripping the edges and leaving it overnight. And then painting on it while on the board. Not only have they a firm surface to work on, the paper won't cockle under heavy wet washes and when finished it can be cut off the board and taken to the framers not looking like a relief map of the Himalayas. And it will stay flat in the frame.
On no, they would sooner just grab a sheet of paper, tack it to a board with masking tape on the corners and attack it with a large brush.:icon11::icon11::mad:
 
prospero said:
Now if only these artists would take a little time in preparing their paper by soaking it in the bath and laying it on a solid board and gumstripping the edges and leaving it overnight. And then painting on it while on the board. Not only have they a firm surface to work on, the paper won't cockle under heavy wet washes and when finished it can be cut off the board and taken to the framers not looking like a relief map of the Himalayas. And it will stay flat in the frame.
On no, they would sooner just grab a sheet of paper, tack it to a board with masking tape on the corners and attack it with a large brush.:icon11::icon11::mad:
Click to expand...

Sounds good to me. Now what do you use for the gumstripping?
 
Ylva said:
Sounds good to me. Now what do you use for the gumstripping?
Click to expand...

Errrr.... Gumstrip. i.e. Paper tape with water activated glue on one side. Aka. Licky-Sticky and various other nom-de-plumes. Although I would not advise licking it unless you are a giraffe.

Wider the better.

Need I elucidate more?:kaffeetrinker_2:
 
The best choice for this project, IMHO, would be an acrylic overlay mount. No adhesive touches the art, it will be perfectly flat forever, and it will appear to float by levitation inside the frame.

Use a rigid backing board such as Coroplast lined with 4-ply alphacellulose. Lay on a few layers of polyester batting (needlepunch polyester suggested for best results), covered with thrice-washed, good quality fabric.

Center the art paper on that prepared backing board, and lay on a sheet of Museum Optium Acrylic. Or, if that is too pricy, use abrasion-resistant, UV-filtering acrylic (OP-3-AR). The abrasion resistant treatment is important, as the art paper could abrade the inside of standard acrylic.

This mounting technique is good for framing art that has a smooth, secure surface, and will be displayed in a controlled-climate interior. If it is to be exposed to extreme environments, do something else. If the surface would be damaged by direct contact, do something else. Also, DO NOT try a similar mount using glass. Due to its poor thermal properties, moisture damage would be likely in a short time.
 
"Errrr.... Gumstrip. i.e. Paper tape with water activated glue on one side. Aka. Licky-Sticky and various other nom-de-plumes. Although I would not advise licking it unless you are a giraffe."

I've used this tape in the past....horrid stuff but it does the job. Only problem is, you cut off the deckled edge (full sheets).

Instead of the tape, many artists I know will staple the soaked paper to a board and let it dry before painting. Nice and flat, especially if it's 300 lb. The work can be hand deckled after the painting is completed, then float mounted. (Naturally, the artist is doing this or I am with the artists permission)

Jim, I like your acrylic idea.....I'll try it in the future.
 
Customer has agreed to give it more time. I have put hinges on the sides 1/3 and 2/3 down - which helped - however it still curls up slightly between the hinges - perhaps a few more days and we will be good to go

He has two more at home which he is going to open up on his pool table (covered with a clean sheet) and allow to relax before he brings them in - he is a Buddhist and said that he was failing in some of the requirements on patience - waiting for his artwork would be good practice for him. I am not a Buddhist so I am not sure what he was talking about however patience is good for all of us.

Interesting discussion - thanks everyone :smiley:
 
wpfay said:
I'm waiting for a conservation expert to jump in here....What I think they would suggest, if humidification was necessary to straighten out the piece, is to do so passively by introducing water vapor from a moistened blotter. Applying water directly to the art is risky and unnecessary.
After the piece is humidified, it is then dried using a series of blotters and pressure.
If I remember the reasoning it is to uniformly humidify and dehumidify the paper so there are no differentials in the expansion and contraction of the fibers that will take place in the process.
Click to expand...

I only have this second-hand, but I can confirm this as a conservation technique. A friend of mine just graduated with a degree in book conservation, and when I asked her about a similar watercolor situation she suggested placing the thing in a "humidity chamber" overnight then pressing it under weight for a few days. The "humidity chamber" is nothing more than a closed container with water in the bottom and some way of suspending the piece so it doesn't touch the water... doesn't have to be fancy, a plastic storage tub and a baker's rack would suffice.
 
JBergelin said:
Customer has agreed to give it more time.
Click to expand...

More time? Nope.

Others have commented that paper fibers have a "memory", and that if you could manage to make the sheet flat, it would not stay that way.

Conservation treatment is the only way to re-orient the paper's fibers in order to keep it permanently flat, if it is possible to do that.
 
Whether the paper will stay flat after humidification and pressing depends on the paper type and size. Real rag watercolor paper probably would stay flat, as long as it wasn't exposed to too much change in Temperature/Relative Humidity after the fact.

Paper that has a strong grain (i.e. not handmade or cylinder mould made papers like Arches) are harder to "re-educate", and the larger the sheet, the harder it is. When it is important for those kind of papers to remain flat I perimeter hinge them to 8-ply. That allows them to move in response to environmental changes, but keeps them more or less in plane.

To humidify I use Gore-tex so only the water vapor reached the paper. How long I let it humidify depends on the piece. Anywhere from 3 minutes to three hours... As Prospero says, every piece is different, and what would work for a traditionally worked watercolor on good quality watercolor paper, might cause cracking and flaking for something like body color or tempra on a more reactive paper.
 
Thanks for sharing your technique, Rebecca. But if I were in Jeanne's place, I would not attempt the work, but contract it to a conservator who knows what to do according to the characteristics of the paper at hand.

Or, I would frame it in a way that does not require re-orientation of the fibers, such as the acrylic overlay.
 
prospero said:
Errrr.... Gumstrip. i.e. Paper tape with water activated glue on one side. Aka. Licky-Sticky and various other nom-de-plumes. Although I would not advise licking it unless you are a giraffe.

Wider the better.

Need I elucidate more?:kaffeetrinker_2:
Click to expand...

Oooooh, the yucky stuff! I know enough now.
 
It is worth noting that Rebecca's technique only allows vapor to reach the paper and not liquid water, which could lead to the formation of tidelines, if the sheet dries, differentially. It exactly that sort of risk that is best left in the hands of trained paper conservators, as has been said.


Hugh
 
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