Visualization Software-Is it working for you?

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GayleMarie

GayleMarie

Grumbler
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Posts
45
Loc
NE Minnesota
I am opening my shop in about 6 weeks and have been debating (with myself up to this point, which is a bit weird...) about having visualization in my shop. I am starting from ground up and am computer savvy, and would be the only framer in the area that offers it.

What do you think, Grumblers? Are you using it? does it help close those sales? In my experience there are so many people out there who can't "see it" finished and I know that can cause problems at delivery time. I am headed towards Wizard's complete setup, so hoping to cut time by moving from design table to mat cutter, etc.

So help me stop debating with myself and let me know about your experiences/opinions. Thanks! GayleMarie
 
First of all... welcome to the grumble!

Our shop was probably among the first to adopt the current technology, in March of 2005. We started out with another product, and switched to FrameVue in late 2006.

While we don't use it with EVERY customer, it does close just about any sale it has every been involved with. IMO, it adds to the design experience and gives them a useful result which helps them get their head around what the finished design might look like. Some folks have a hard time comprehending what it might look like, from just the small samples. They can't appreciate the depth added by matting, differing widths, fillets, etc. It is these folks who respond positively, point, and say THAT ONE PLEASE.

Lighting and colors will be close, but not dead on. (but will have the same variances as their art) We always explain that what we are showing is only an 'approximation of how it might look framed', and no one has ever had a problem with it. Loading mats from the database helps greatly, especially with suedes and other textured mats.

I think this technology will continue to mature and develop, and will be as common as the CMC, Vnailer, or POS. In its current form, it's a very marketable product at the design counter.

My advice: Try the demos, and see what works best for your situation. Take a look also at integration with your POS system, as this is where things are heading. Jim Miller wrote some great articles about this subject recently, in Picture Framing Magazine. A list of vendors lives at the link in my tag line.

I'm sure others will chime in with their personal experiences.

Good luck!
Mike Labbe
Get The Picture
 
It's a great tool.

But don't plan to use it with every customer, otherwise your sale / design time will explode!

You will have customers waiting while the one being "Visualized" wants to see more colors and more mats and more / less borders , etc. Customers waiting in line won't be happy.
  • I use it only with the visually impaired or the terminally indecisive
  • Or to take a snap shot of how the items in a shadow box should be laid out.
  • Or to take a picture of a frame I am looking for at the Grumble
  • Or to make pictures of a variety of options to be emailed to private or corporate customers
  • Or when a customer dumps stuff in a hurry and wants some ideas (to be emailed to them)
In other words its a great tool, but use it wisely....:)
 
Visualization is great

We have had visualization ( FrameVue) since 2006. We TRY to use it on EVERY sale... unless the customer is in a big hurry. I am fast at it. I lay customers work down on the table and many times have a picture of it with mat and frame before they know it.
I can't tell you how many WOWS we get. We have a bunch of second home customers too and they all say "My framer back home doesn't have anything like THIS"!
I also like the love permanent image on the Lifesaver ticket.
We have had the FrameVue long enough now to have hundreds and hundreds of tickets with images now. All we have to do is open the ticket and there is the image of their last project. It is very helpful to identify past frames and mat choices.
Another thing that many customers like is the multiple opening feature. You can arrange all the images where they should be positioned ..when the person who cuts the mats has a question about where the image is supposed to be placed on the mat all they have to do is open the ticket enlarge it and print out a copy of the image now you know grandpa goes to the left grandma on the right.

Don't hesitate getting visualization if opening a new shop...also test out all the demos to see what is easiest for you to use.
 
I love technology - Photoshop, Dreamweaver, and other art programs for managing my website - but at the moment, I'm still ANALOG for framing. I even have a 30 year old slide-rule made for framing to figure out footage.

I finally made the big plunge a couple weeks ago, and bought a new double monitor computer, and I'm currently (slowly) calibrating Wizard's Retail Management Suite (including their IF Viz). Once I get it all setup and working, I can let you know how it's going, as one of it's first users.

Its a big jump for me to switch from the way I've been doing it forever.

...I AM surprised that some of the above posts say that not everyone uses it for every sale... Wizard's RMS is supposed to take a picture, then once it makes the mock-up, it will price it up based from the photo (since it also measures sizes). So do you all put the numbers manually into a POS program? Is that quicker?
 
cjmst3k said:
...I AM surprised that some of the above posts say that not everyone uses it for every sale... Wizard's RMS is supposed to take a picture, then once it makes the mock-up, it will price it up based from the photo (since it also measures sizes). So do you all put the numbers manually into a POS program? Is that quicker?
Click to expand...

At the shop I work at, I use IFV about 40-50% of the time (for those customers that need the sales boost for whatrever reason), in front of the customer. Honestly, if the customer's not picky its easier and nicer just to get them on their way.

I use it 100% of the time with or without the customer. I LOVE having the image of the piece on the ticket, in color, so I'll always go back after the custer's gone and capture the piece in IFV. I've already caught myself twice in the last 3 months from forgetting to subtract the 1 on the tape measure. I'd catch it anyways as we always remeasure before cutting, but I'd prefer to capture it on the ticket correctly.

I do all my multi-opening layouts now at the front counter, usually in front of the customer unless I have to create a custom opening shape (but that's only like 5% of orders or less). Yeah, I have a little speed advantage there, but my customers leave here with no doubt in their mind, I don't have to waste time drawing it and then re-entering it, and the size isn't an estimate, it's exact...
 
We like it (Wizard IF), but only use it if the customer is indecisive between 2 or 3 frames. Would definitely use it more if we could get the mat colors close to being right (even with adjusting the settings & lighting). Sometimes the colors are so far off it's embarrassing to show the customer. 'Visualize this, but ignore the colors!' We are in a color industry, and we need to have a product that is showing close to true colors. Since it's the lighting and camera's fault, a mat database would be a logical option. Visualization has been discussed in depth in other threads, so you might want to search and read them also, if you haven't already. Good Luck!
 
IFV is essential for me, but optional with the customer

I have some artist customers who "know" what they want and it is only a matter of letting them at the mat corner and moulding corner samples. They design and I make encouraging noises until they get the result they are looking for. Using visualization would only slow them down.

I use IF Visualization afterwards to capture a visual record of what they have designed. When there is a question later, I send them some alternative solutions from the captured images.

I use IFV to create correctly sized mats from images and take the CMC output file to the matcutter and generate the finished mats with almost no manual entry. Multi-opening mats can be generated from a layout of the actual objects and photos.

On the other hand, when customers leave off work for me to frame, I find that I can save hours of meetings by creating alternative solutions with different mats and mat widths and a variety of mouldings. I can do this in my "idle" time and email them ideas for their consideration.

As the software evolves, I expect it to become easier to use and fully expect that it will be used with a majority of customers. Right now, I use it to assist in setting expectations for customers who are not sure and for remote design evaluations.

I wish I could say that Retail Management was as easy to use. I am still using POS software that I wrote myself because the learning curve for IF RM is too steep and too long to transfer to it this quarter.

The good news is that IF Visualization and Mat Designer will pay for themselves right out of the box. Two out of three isn't bad... :)
 
The decision.....

GayleMarie said:
... and have been debating (with myself up to this point, which is a bit weird...) about having visualization in my shop........................Are you using it? does it help close those sales? In my experience there are so many people out there who can't "see it" finished and I know that can cause problems at delivery time.
Click to expand...

GayleMarie,

In the few responses already on this first page, you've really got a lot of valid information. I would highly concur with these comments and emphasize that visualization is not as important to the operation as I intitially thought it would be. We did it right, with a nice big screen and even have been running TV advertising promoting that we offer this unique service.

But, the truth is that our best designers manage to close the sale WITHOUT needing to use the visualization software. Several other posters before me have alluded to the same findings, but having said this.....I wouldn't be without it. In today's competitive market, I want every single advantage and tool that is available to help make the sale and keep my business on the leading edge.

btw - We have used all of the visualization software out there....had really been happy with IF, but made the switch to FrameVue which I prefer and think has some advantages. (Judy speaks of it's meshing images into all of her worktickets) which is nice...)

I am headed towards Wizard's complete setup, so hoping to cut time by moving from design table to mat cutter, etc....
Click to expand...

I'm not so sure how important it is to have the links between the three...

Visualization - CMC - POS​

I happen to use SpecialtySoft for my POS which I love because of all that it can do. I use FrameVue for visualization and it does link to my Fletcher-Valiani CMC. But...in most single location shops, it's simply not that important. I would be looking at other features as well as compatibility.

cjmst3k aka Chris said:
...I AM surprised that some of the above posts say that not everyone uses it for every sale...So do you all put the numbers manually into a POS program? Is that quicker?[/
Click to expand...

Actually Chris, if you are a bar code junkie, as I am....the answer might be YES. So many of the key moulding and matboard vendors are supplying their samples with true UPC barcodes and generating some for those that don't isn't all that difficult. Click...click and changes are made really fast and accurately.

BTW - Good luck in your new business, GayleMarie

Regards,

John
 
TGFU said:
Sometimes the colors are so far off it's embarrassing to show the customer. 'Visualize this, but ignore the colors!'
a mat database would be a logical option. !
Click to expand...


Just the end of last week when I got the new specifers from "Bainbridge" I decided to scan them and load them into my Viz files. I also started doing the same thing with the color sheets for LJ moulding. It seems to work great. Not hard to find if you label files correctly and then all you are shooting with the camera is the art.
 
Thanks for your insights and suggestions. Any tips on lighting and camera set up for the design counter? I have installed track lighting in the front of the shop with halogen bulbs. Also, the ceiling is about 10' high. Would a ceiling mount for the camera work or does it need to be closer? GayleMarie
 
Trial and error is best, and tweaking the s/w settings appropriate to the lightining condition. (white balance, etc).

We found halogens to be too bright, and replaced our can lighting over the counter with some 5500k screw-in flourescents (diverted daylight). So far this is working out well. At the PMA show, this is what the booths had. The fixtures sold there were over $2k each, but we used some $6 HOME DEPOT 5500k bulbs for now. :) We're still experimenting, but closer than ever.
 
Ditto on the fluorescents.. We installed a new overhead at my shop and swung the halogens around to point at the moulding wall. You want to make sure that you don't have any light source directly overhead. I made a small screen out of white fabric and stretcher bars and hung it right below half of the fluorescent light fixture to get rid of the glare.

Also, 10' ceilings are perfect. That puts your camera about 6' away from the design table. My rule of thumb is every foot away from the surface you can capture something 10 inches wide, so 6' away lets you take a picture about 60" wide. When you get closer than 5' the picture tends to pincushion at the edges.
 
The first visualization article was "Visualize This!" in the December 2005 Picture Framing Magazine, page 60. The latest article was "Framing Visualization software" in their December 2005 issue, page 54.

I'm a framer, not a techie, so I have no propulsion toward such technology. That said, if there's a product or tool that will make my business better, I want it. Now that I've acquainted myself with the attributes and limitations of the technology, visualization is one of those tools I would not want to operate my frame shop without.

In the process of writing those articles I have installed most of the current programs on my gallery computer, and have become somewhat familiar with them. I can testify that they all work. However, they all have unique features and some weaknesses. Evolution of this relatively new technology will take care of the deficiencies, so long as we communicate candidly with the developers.

What I like best about visualization is that it is useful for advertising and in-shop uses. When we want a gallery model with purposeful or sensational framing, we put all of our designs into the program and have a talk about which one serves the purpose best. Then we build it.

When I need a certain kind of image for advertising, I "frame it" in the vis program and integrate the digital composite framed image into the ad. No COG, no framing labor.

When a commercial customer wants a proposal, I include a digital composite of the finished framing. That alone has sold several commercial jobs that we might not have earned otherwise. They often think we actually built and photographed a frame for them in advance of the order.

When a customer is indecisive about a frame design, the act of showing two or three different designs always blows them off dead-center. It's like going to the eye doctor: "Which is better; this one or that one?" The composite images work wonders, making the decision-making process more natural.

When a customer insists on a 1" mat and we recommend a 4" mat, we can show them the difference in appearance. Vis probably sold 10 feet of extra mat width in my shop last year, 1" or 2" inches at a time.

When a customer comes in empty handed, "scouting" for a frame shop, visualization is one of the Big Three Professionalisms that brings them back with their stuff to frame.

We don't have gallery "openings" or feature artist exhibits, but if we did, they would be evening wine & cheese affairs. On a central wall we would have a data projector playing a slide show of full-sized, visualization-framed examples of the artist's works.

Our visualization system has paid for itself repeatedly. Yours will, too, if you use it right.
 
Jim, that you identify yourself as framer, not a techie, speaks to the core of what I wanted to hear about--comment from experienced framers who don't rely on technology but find how it helps their business survive/thrive.

Since I have the opportunity right now to build things from the ground up, this is my chance to build in efficiency. I don't want to waste money on "gadgets" just for the sake of having them. But if it helps me differentiate myself as progressive, helpful, efficient--then bring it on!

Your suggestions about ways to get more out of the visualization than just wowing the customer will be cut and pasted into my idea file for future reference. Thanks!!
GM
 
definitely moving on...

GayleMarie said:
...of what I wanted to hear about--comment from experienced framers who don't rely on technology but find how it helps their business survive/thrive....
Click to expand...

GayleMarie,

Isn't the framer who learns to rely on technology one and the same as the one who learns how to make that technology make them better and grow their business? :)

John

P.S. Sitting in my shop alone doing a POS upgrade after hours!
 
John Ranes II said:
GayleMarie,

Isn't the framer who learns to rely on technology one and the same as the one who learns how to make that technology make them better and grow their business? :)

John

P.S. Sitting in my shop alone doing a POS upgrade after hours!
Click to expand...
uh, yes? (Grasshopper appreciates your comment.)

I meant that technology can't replace good design/craft in any pursuit-for example, desktop publishing. Just because you have a million fonts available doesn't mean you should use them all in one document!
GM
 
Gayle,

We just upgraded Integrated Framer's Visualization and are in the process up implementing IF Point of Sales.

We have fine tuned the set up with dedicated soft lighting, on a switch, at the design counter.

I wouldn't be without it but we only use it for about 10% of the jobs we frame.

There are a lot of limitations. Free free to call or travel south and check it out.

Doug
 
Jerry, I have been testing the RM demo for about two weeks, in advance of using it in my new shop,as well as Wizard's visualization and CMC software. (I ran demos of a few others in the last 6 months, but since I am a startup biz, have no real-world use to compare.)

Overall, I find the RM interface very clean, straightforward and easy to use. Some of the others I tested looked like they were created with share ware in 1991, to be honest: cluttered, tiny icons that were impossible to decipher and loaded down with many functions I would never use. I find that it is easy to move between the different modules (visualization and CMC) and that I could learn most of the basics without consulting the manual.
Have you viewed the video online? It gives you a quick intro to the features and navigation. hope this helps, GayleMarie
 
I have seen the video.

I just installed the demos on my PhotoShop machine. It is the fastest machine I have.

So far, I agree that the interface looks great. Far better than anything I have used before. However, I have used FrameReady for so long that I know where everything is. I am not finding things as easily as I had thought that I would. And have not tried any reports at all. I wish that I had a dummy database I could load.

I'm going to keep trying.
 
Jerry Ervin said:
...I have used FrameReady for so long...
Click to expand...

So, why change? Are you attracted to the features of integration?

I've tried to think through the advantages of having integration between Viz, POS, and CMC -- which is as good as it gets, and the capabilities are still limited. In the same way that POS inventory control requires more time and attention than manual inventory control, I think integration may be more sizzle than steak.
 
Jim Miller said:
I think integration may be more sizzle than steak.
Click to expand...

That's like saying that there's not any benefit for Microsoft Word and Excel to integrate. Small shops immediately benefit from not having to double or triple entry all their dimensions, even if 85-90% of what they sell are single opening rectangles... and having an image on the work-order removes any doubt about the proportions, materials, layout, image placement, etc.

...which is as good as it gets
Click to expand...
Not by a long shot.. :) We're just getting started..
 
WizSteve said:
Not by a long shot.. :) We're just getting started..
Click to expand...

Please tell us more. What will you integrate besides the POS, CMC, and viz for the benefit of the framers here -- that is, small independents?

My understanding is that integration is pretty much limited by brand name. Am I wrong? Today most small independent framers, in my opinion, would not enjoy enough savings and convenience to justify spending the money to replace what they already have, simply for the purpose of integration. Keep in mind that the cost of equipment might be equaled by the cost of re-learning and configuring a new POS program or CMC program.

For instance, it might cost me $30,000 to buy, install, and become proficient with a new POS, CMC, and viz; $15,000 to buy the stuff, plus $15,000 for at least a month of setup, training, trial and error. But let's assume my employee and I both learn quickly and get by with a total cost of only $25,000 for everything, including proficiency for the users.

In order to justify that cost, a 2-year return on invensment (ROI) would be reasonable.

For a 2-year ROI, using the new, integrated equipment would have to save my company an average of $240 per week ($25K divided by 104 weeks). Assuming we process an average of 30 framing orders per week, some of which are for multiple frames, we would have to save about $8 per frame, which represents about 7-1/2 minutes at my shop's $65/hour shop labor rate.

All of the keying of data into fields for the POS and the CMC averages about 10 minutes per order. I can't see my shop saving 7-1/2 minutes in the processing of every order, or even half of that, which would extend the ROI to about 4 years, or at least 3. Where am I going wrong?

Now, if you are talking about integrating all CMCs models with all POS programs and viz programs, that's an entirely different scenario. In that case, we could integrate what we already own, and then I believe framers would find a much more attractive value in integration. Aside from saving purchase cost, we would have a much faster learning cycle, as well.

Please, Steve, correct me where I'm wrong and tell us more.
 
OK, first off, if I'm correct in assuming that most of your big $15k chunk is mainly the CMC purchase, then your ROI is pretty much met. The benefits of that type of equipment purchase is pretty well understood and universally agreed upon, and I could easily see a shop save an average of 7-8 minutes per order (more if the shop does more multi-opening mats and fillets). If they already have a CMC, then they're not going to just put it out to pasture (unless its a Mat Maestro). You yourself are attempting to recoup 6k on your refurbished, out-of-manufacturing 6100, right?

Regardless, if you're intending that your ROI only relates to the time savings of having a single brand of CMC / POS / VIS and not include any of the individual benefits of one of those tools alone, then I don't think your numbers are right. Instead you'd have to get the difference of the cost of that single brand's bundle vs. the aggregate cost of all the other brand's. Which, correct me if I'm wrong, is negligible (and in some cases might even be more savings).

Secondly, how did you determine the 10-15k additional training costs? Was this personal experience, or some kind of case study I don't know about?

Finally, my personal approach towards benefits on integration is not about how much time saved, but reducing the error rate. When everything in the shop becomes "aware" of what the order is, all the order data lives in one spot (central database), and humans are not re-entering data over and over and are given powerful tools to manipulate those orders, then the benefits should be obvious.

I'm not saying that our package is worth dumping everything a shop has invested in. In a perfect world, there would be all kinds of standards and interfaces that any company in our industry could implement to communicate with any other company. That just ain't going to happen. So one of the main reasons Wizard wrote our own POS is so we could finally take things to the next level without relying on another company for resources and talent. Like I said, you ain't seen nuthin' yet.


But let's be honest Jim and put all the cards on the table - I represent a company (Wizard) that's offering a complete one-stop-shop integration package, while your interests are allied with a company (Fletcher) that has to interface with with several other companies (Lifesaver, Patron BPM, and Specialty) to get the same coverage. I'm not surprised at all that you and John are both publicly questioning the "value" of seamless integration. I'm not accusing you of being biased as I know you really want to remain a neutral third-party, but I got to call them like I see them.
 
WizSteve said:
...how did you determine the 10-15k additional training costs? Was this personal experience, or some kind of case study I don't know about?
Click to expand...

No studies, Steve, just my personal experience in setting up two POS systems, at least 6 viz programs, and two CMCs. That money represents about 200 - 250 hours of time for installation, setup, configuration/loading of data, and for two people to become proficient users of POS, CMC, and viz systems. If you think I'm overestimating, let's compare numbers. I would appreciate the benefit of your reasoning.

If there is any time study that would help a framer understand how much direct and indirect labor is typically invested in adapting new technology, it would be very useful information. I believe most framers underestimate that, no matter whose name is on the box.

It only makes sense to take advantage of integration when it is available, but I still can't see replacing any existing tools specifically for that purpose.

Framing technology is headed toward further integration, and your company is on the 'bleeding edge' of the advances. I wish you well.
 
Whoa, Gentlemen. Big can of worms opened by little unsuspecting newbie.

In my past life I worked as a graphic designer and believe me, I saw files generated by every program imaginable-I worked with engineers and researchers. Much of my day was taken up (shall I say wasted) by trying to get these files to work and play well with printers and other output devices. We tried to educate our clients in what worked and what didn't, but ususally it was a free for all.

When I think integration, I think Adobe. Love of my life. I could jump smoothly from PhotoShop to Illustrator to Pagemaker and back again. No freakish compatibility issues, no pulling of hair. Just tools that worked well together as they should. Peace. Tranquility. Productivity.

I have chosen Wizard software and equipment in order to start with a coordinated set of tools, ala Adobe. I know from my past experience that it can only save me time and make me a happier worker. I'm not sure why this causes hackles to raise around here, but then I am new to this discussion. I will keep you posted on my real world experiences in integration, ok? GayleMarie
 
I think you have the advantage of starting from zero, so you don't have to fret over whether to replace a CMC or POS system in order to get the full benefits of an integrated package. I have the Wizard and the IF, and though they are standalone systems, I'm very pleased with both.
 
PaulSF said:
...I have the Wizard and the IF, and though they are standalone systems, I'm very pleased with both.
Click to expand...

Paul, if you do not have a POS program, integration might provide another good for you to buy and install the one that goes with your existing software.

But if you already have a POS program with which you are satisfied and comfortable, would you consider replacing it with a new one, for the purpose of gaining integration?
 
WizSteve said:
your interests are allied with a company (Fletcher)
Click to expand...

I thought we were supposed to ignore that fact as it’s so rarely mentioned when discussing things like v-nailers and mat cutters?

I remember sitting at a table with the Lifesaver guys in Atlanta 2 or 3 years ago. They were going on and on and on with all the plans they have for viz software and pos and such. About 1/5 of it has come to light so I guess most of it was dreams.

Wizard has seemed to be taking huge steps into the direction that Lifesaver was dreaming of years ago. Having said that, I don't see any use in having any of it intergraded. POS software prices thing and creates invoicing. Vis software shows people what it looks like. A mat cutter has some great design features and cuts mats. Quickbooks does the accounting. These functions are so different that I can't see the benefit in combining it all.

I guess it could be handy but to use all this integrations as a sales pitch doesn't sell it for me.
 
Jim Miller said:
But if you already have a POS program with which you are satisfied and comfortable, would you consider replacing it with a new one, for the purpose of gaining integration?
Click to expand...

Jay H said:
I guess it could be handy but to use all this integrations as a sales pitch doesn't sell it for me.
Click to expand...

Um, good point. In fact, it was never my intention to prove to anyone that integration alone would be the main selling factor. That's just gravy. I was actually hoping that the merits of the individual programs would stand on their own.

All I wanted to accomplish in the latter half of this thread was to point out the fact that there's more to it than just a sales pitch. But certain individuals keep trying to point out that they don't seem to think there's anything to be gained by plugging their CMC into their POS.. and all I'm saying is that I beg to differ.:p
 
Sorry I'm late to the rodeo. I got busy yesterday.

I am behind on my POS version. Every time I get behind, I look at some demos of other products to see if upgrading my current system is the right thing for me to do. It equates to looking at Toyotas before trading your old Honda in on a new Honda.

I'm also behind a version on my CMC.

I really really like the new Fletcher/Valiani machines. However, I need to take a serious look at the new Wiz software. If it blows me out of the water, I'll keep my 8000 or upgrade to a 8500 and go the Wizard route. If not, I will purchase an 'i' series machine and upgrade my current POS.

All the Viz programs seem pretty much the same.

I have got to 'play' with the new software for all of about 30 to 45 minutes, but so far I really like it.
 
Some of this stuff has been in the works for a long time. The first time I heard it I began to wonder the validity of it.

This is just how I operate. I'll bet I'm not alone but I'm not speaking for anybody else or reprimanding anybody else's methods (you have to have these discloser's as to not breach the senstivities of some others.)

When I'm designing, I'm focused on the design and small talk with the customer. Pricing already takes to long and I grab a measurement of say "23x35". I go to the pos computer and enter in some mats with a 3" width and a frame and glass. I take the money and say good bye as that has ended that part of this transaction.

When its time to frame I'm focused on the execution and wouldn't dare trust numbers taken at the design counter. This is also when I seriously consider if a v-groove at 3/4" makes that mat look small...so I bump it up to 3 1/2" and bottom weight it 1/2". Also that is 23 3/8 x 34 7/8 and not 23x35. I will never go to the wiz computer and grab Invoice 12394 and hit the cut button. Has their been a lot of requests for this?
 
Steve, I believe you misunderstand my opinion of integration to be brand-related, but it is not. My lack of faith in the value of integration has nothing to do with brand names. I just don't understand the benefits or their value to me, as a frame shop owner.

Everyone in the business of software and hardware for framing seems to be talking about integration of various components. Wizard is building-in integration as an exclusive benefit, but others are building it among several brand names, as well -- or talking about doing it, anyway.

I have asked questions of other software and hardware suppliers who talk about integration, but so far, the answers from everyone have been vague and incomplete. For whatever integration is worth, Wizard certainly has an advantage with it right now, and I look forward to learning more about its benefits. I guess others probably do, too.

Your "one-stop-shop" type of integration may be superior to others. I don't know enough about yours or theirs to make any comparisons, but my relatively-uneducated opinion on integration goes across the board. If the question is, "What would you pay for integration of your POS, CMC, and viz today?", my answer is the same for all makers: Not much. I see it as a convenience, but not as a major benefit to my business. I don't get it. Where am I going wrong?

You said, "When everything in the shop becomes "aware" of what the order is, all the order data lives in one spot (central database), and humans are not re-entering data over and over and are given powerful tools to manipulate those orders, then the benefits should be obvious."

The benefits are not obvious to me, so would you please explain? What do you mean by "everything in the shop"? So far, I know about integration of POS, CMC, and viz. Accounting software comes into the discussion sometimes, too. Will you integrate with accounting software? Are you also talking about integrating cutting and joining equipment? Anything else?

Presently I have two POS/viz computers in the gallery, plus one in the office with QuickBooksPro, and one on the CMC in the back room. Each of them is connected to a LAN and contains a database for whatever programs are installed. Access to the data is quite easy, and so are backups. Would having a central database save the cost of computer software or hardware in any of these locations? How would a central database benefit my frame shop?

The only data we routinely key in twice are dimensions; once for the POS (along with all the other data), and again for the CMC. Keying-in a mat's opening height, width, and margin dimensions in one program instead of two seems like an insignificant savings of labor. You mentioned errors, but so far, errors have not been much of a problem. Indeed, if the dimensions I've separately keyed into the POS and CMC programs disagree for a particular order, then I know there is an error fairly quickly. But with integration, if I key-in the dimensions only once and make a mistake, would it not be reproduced on all of the integrated software? How and when would I know about such a error?

What are the "powerful tools to manipulate those orders" to which you refer? That sounds exciting, but the benefits are not obvious to me. What am I missing?
 
I apologize Gayle for:bdh: and hijacking your thread here.. I know it seems like our collective heckles are raised, but we're just pushing each other's buttons. That's what the Grumble's all about! ;)

Jim Miller said:
If the question is, "What would you pay for integration of your POS, CMC, and viz today?", my answer is the same for all makers: Not much. I see it as a convenience, but not as a major benefit to my business. I don't get it. Where am I going wrong?
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For many shops, you (and Jay) are correct. It's a convenience, like having your email show up on your phone. Gravy. But like you said, if you are starting out, or maybe unhappy with your current vendor, then having systems that all work together is a big plus.

We sell more CMCs because we have visualization that shows what our CMC can do (and vice-versa), and I don't see why that would be different with having a fully integrated POS. I'm sure Apple sells more iPods and iTunes because they work together. The whole is greater than the sum of it's parts and all that. How else do you want me to explain it?

My lack of faith in the value of integration has nothing to do with brand names. I just don't understand the benefits or their value to me, as a frame shop owner.
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That's fine, in your shop you may not need to. But there's a reason why the Wizard CMC has been working with other POS companies for the last 10 years... the sole-proprietor / single-store model is not the only model. Our very next version we're releasing is the Enterprise level system, so multiple stores can have central order and content management.

A solution with many equipment vendors with many exclusive systems with many points of contact doesn't scale well, not to mention it's much harder to test and fix problems for all companies involved.

Indeed, if the dimensions I've separately keyed into the POS and CMC programs disagree for a particular order, then I know there is an error fairly quickly. But with integration, if I key-in the dimensions only once and make a mistake, would it not be reproduced on all of the integrated software? How and when would I know about such a error?
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Well, you wouldn't know about an error in either case if you measured wrong to begin with... which is why visualization that brings back accurate dimensions to the POS is an obvious benefit to integration, right?

Jay H said:
When its time to frame I'm focused on the execution and wouldn't dare trust numbers taken at the design counter. This is also when I seriously consider if a v-groove at 3/4" makes that mat look small...so I bump it up to 3 1/2" and bottom weight it 1/2". Also that is 23 3/8 x 34 7/8 and not 23x35. I will never go to the wiz computer and grab Invoice 12394 and hit the cut button. Has their been a lot of requests for this?
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Absolutely. But you're the king of the castle. You know exactly what's going on in your shop, and if you make a change to a measurement / design / whatever then you're the only one who has to deal with it.

Let's say that you're fairly successful and you want to open Great Angles II and "corner" the market in Owensboro. Now you have designers working for you, and a barely-over-the-minimum wage person in one shop cutting all the frames. Do you think you can still wing it at the design counter in this scenario?

Or lets say you're REALLY doing well, and you've plastered Kentucky with Great Angles and opened a central production facility. You have orders coming in from 15 locations. Does having separate solutions still work if they don't talk to each other?
 
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All hail Jay the King !!!!!!

Corner the market in Owensboro ???? Ever seen Owensboro?
Should not take too much work ;)
Its okay, I am from a place even smaller! : )

Seriously though, I am a tech by trade.
I see the whole purpose about integration, but I think everything is still new. Using the Adobe scenario, they have made some good purchases over the years and perfected their software and how they are a fantastic total solution.

No offense to Wizard, Life Saver or any others, but can any company out there prove their viz , retail, CMC are the tops? Or are we still at a point in which lifesaver may be a tad bit better on one, Wizard on another, etc?

On the measuring point - same thing here. Get "rough" measurments at the design counter, perfect those and find any errors when you do it for "real" before you cut. Not that I don't trust the technology, just not sure if talking with a customer, doing a design should be the same time you are splitting hairs over 16ths on an inch, moving a v groove out 1/8 in, etc.
 
Full integration sounds nice, but for me it's a "single point of failure" that could bring your biz to its knees with one bad update. Now you have nothing working. Kind of like the virus in Battlestar Glactica.
 
I agree...your still going to have to double check and adjust measurements before you cut.
 
WizSteve said:
Not by a long shot.. :) We're just getting started..
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WizSteve - I have a question for you. I've mentioned this to your tech Ryan (who is a great help!) and I wanted to mention this on the forum too.

When I design frame 1, then frame 2, then frame 3... and the customer looks in "customer view" and chooses frame 2... there's nowhere to hit "send to RM"... which means I have to create the mock-up all over again to send it to RM, since all the data of the first designs are removed when I create another image for them.

Will there be a feature in the future that when a customer chooses any but the last frame designed, that it will price up the one they choose? Unless I'm doing something wrong, it seems it will only price up the most recently designed, and any of the preceeding designs will need all the data re-entered either with a new IF mockup, or manually entered into RM.

Thanks!
Chris
 
Sure Chris - it's in there, just not obvious. It should be a button, but right now you have to right-click on the tab and select "Make Snapshot Active in Editor". That'll bring that particular design back into the workspace so you can send it back to RM or adjust it.
 
WizSteve said:
Sure Chris - it's in there, just not obvious. It should be a button, but right now you have to right-click on the tab and select...
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Yes, of course it's in there. It's only a matter of knowing where to find it -- which is why good tech support is so important. As programs evolve over time, they become more user-friendly. And at the same time, users become more software-friendly as their base of experience grows with the program.

Like most others, I depend on at least a dozen unique programs daily for one thing or another. Every one of them has more capability than I will ever need. I learn enough about the program to do what I need to do, and remain ignorant of the rest. I often wonder how much more I could get out of a program if I only knew more about it. But that takes precious time to study and practice.

I wonder if there is a point at which a typical picture framer would throw up his hands and say, "I just can't deal with any more computer stuff, all I want to do is build some frames". Sometimes I feel close to that point. Am I the only one?

As I understand it, one promise of integration is to simplify operations for the user. That might turn out to be its biggest and best attribute.
 
WizSteve said:
Sure Chris - it's in there, just not obvious. It should be a button, but right now you have to right-click on the tab and select "Make Snapshot Active in Editor". That'll bring that particular design back into the workspace so you can send it back to RM or adjust it.
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Oh! Very good!

Ryan mentioned to me just earlier that is was indeed an option - though at first he thought it wasnt possible. A button would make it more obvious.

Thanks!!!
Chris
 
I do not have anywhere near the credentials That some of the big dogs here have.
I would also like to say it really does not matter to me if you go computerized or not. I have because I feel it is extremely useful for my business.
So if you Don't think it helps I respect that you think that. Some of the framers going computerized won't help. There are others that really should & it will make a huge difference.

I only have my personal experiences to pass on.
The experiences are current with the items I have.
I will not speak against anyone's product that I do not have or of which I only have small exposure, & very limited "up to date" knowledge of them.

I have Wizard IF, Wizard RM pos(2008-present) and had a Wizard 5000(1998-2008) I now have a Wizard 8500(March 2009-2019).

As with anything computerized I have found it takes some time to get used to & learn features. You can do this by trial & error as most of us do,,sometimes the most costly method..LOL
You can Take a class, seminar and/or a Wizard Webnar (live computer conference call with video "so cool"). That probably saving you time & money...."old age has taught me that".

One thing about POS in our industry & Visualization it is in its infancy. It is moving very fast. It has changed so much just in the last 3 years. If you loaded a three year old program and compared it to what we have today it would be like Model T & a 1990 ford sedan.
As I type this I know Wizard is churning more improvements.
The new version releases will be the Hybrids.

Here is what I know. The more you use something the faster you get no matter what soft ware it is.
Now that the Wizard IFV calculates the picture size you just add the mat boarder sizes, add v-grooves or change templates.
You can show them several different versions quickly. Save the one they pick. Then send that to the Wizard RM POS.
All the dimensions, frames, mat colors, v-grooves are filled in add glass or mounting or whatever other charges you have to add.
Then add the person's name, address, phone #, any other info you want.
It schedules the day that it will be done.(your parameter's)
Then you ask cash or charge.
Print the sales order, the receipt and the work order with 4 key strokes.
Then all I have to do is call that order up & with one keystroke send it to the CMC to cut the mats. The Wizard CMC not only tells me the color of mat to put in the CMC but It also tells me the depth to set the blade.
The end of the day you can close the day & get an accurate report of the business you did that day.
You can print out a materials list that tells you the vendor & the quantity the size of frame, glass, mat, you have to order.
There are other reports you can print COG, track customersand more than a dozen other reports.
That is my basic experience to date.

There are times when I have a customer where I pick out one frame one mat & they respond "ya That's fine". I then just enter the info directly into the Wizard RM POS.
Then add the person's name, address, phone #, any other info you want.
It schedules the day that it will be done.(your parameters)
Then you ask cash or charge.
Print the sales order, the receipt and the work order with 4 key strokes.

If they are repeat customers No need to enter name & info three keystrokes it will fill that info automatically.
It will also clone and repeat tickets to save time on multiples where you have one item different like mat color or one dimension to change.
which then can be sent to the CMC.
You can also design the mat on the Mat Designer software & then send it to the IF or the RM POS. It is versitale with out having to re-enter info. two or thre times.

Also you can create a mailing list data base without reentering customer info.

Everyone else was being long winded I thought I would to.
This is just part of an email I sent to someone who had asked me about IF a couple weeks ago. Who had taken a Wizard Webnar on the Visualizer.

Again this is just from what I know as a working Frame shop & Art Supply dealerwho has been around for 34 years in the industry.
I hope it helps anyone who is interested.

I feel for the price. It pays for itself in my shop.... Your shop that is entirely up to you.

Take what you want leave the rest.
 
First, let me say that we use If visualization and a Wizard CMC on a daily basis. Our POS is Frame Ready. We are pleased with all of these systems.

Integration? I can do without it. Measurements that are entered into the POS are carefully remeasured by our custom framers and adjusted according to the desired result. Then the mat and frame are cut from the adjusted work order. Measurements in IF are ignored and used for visualization for the customer's benefit and for storage of certain proposed designs, email transmission of designs, and so on.

Perhaps we will take the next leap forward and understand the benefits of integration at some future date. Right now, IF measurements are approximate. Heck, just lining everything up on the IF screen is a challenge, let alone counting on its accuracy. Am I missing something?
 
Kirstie said:
First, let me say that we use If visualization and a Wizard CMC on a daily basis. Our POS is Frame Ready. We are pleased with all of these systems.

Integration? I can do without it. Measurements that are entered into the POS are carefully remeasured by our custom framers and adjusted according to the desired result. Then the mat and frame are cut from the adjusted work order. Measurements in IF are ignored and used for visualization for the customer's benefit and for storage of certain proposed designs, email transmission of designs, and so on.

Perhaps we will take the next leap forward and understand the benefits of integration at some future date. Right now, IF measurements are approximate. Heck, just lining everything up on the IF screen is a challenge, let alone counting on its accuracy. Am I missing something?
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Kristie,
My version of Wizard IF will automatically calculate the picture area. No ruler, no measuring needed. Then it is relayed to the CMC or the Wizard RM pos. no reentry no re-measuring.
They have really changed the features in the last 3 months. If you have not seen it lately & you have the time you might sign up for one of the IF or RM webnars.
But then again as a competitor stay with what you have... "that was a tongue in cheek comment"
By the way I think your web site went ballistic with this new upgrade...
 
GUMBY said:
Kristie,

By the way I think your web site went ballistic with this new upgrade...
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Thanks so much. We plan to revamp all the older pages in the next year and I think we have a style we can go with now. All the pages will have a banner incorporating art relevant to that page or to the shop in general.

I'll ask my assistant manager Lisa about IF and make sure we have the latest version. She is my POS/Visualization expert. I just use it.
 
One thing I found very disturbing about FrameVue visualization program:

If you opt not to pay the annual $200 for support and upgrades, the system will stop functioning completely and you are stuck with a software that just doesn't work till you pay the annual subscription.

I hope LifeSaver doesn't work that way.....

Not sure how other visualization systems work if you opt not pay annual subscriptions.
 
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