Vice Pressure

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M

Matoaka

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Joined
Apr 28, 2002
Posts
519
Loc
Albuquerque, NM
Shop controversy: Does the vice have to be "godzilla" tight on the moulding, or will just "tight" do? This is male/female debate. Male's vicings need a plumber's wrench to undo; female's vicings are just hand-tight. Both use mat strips on the vice to avoid denting.

And when do you use angle braces on the back? We just made a very large (43 x 50), very heavy 5" Roma frame for a beveled mirror, using lots of glue and toenailed with long nails on the back, then added three 2-hole angle-bars on each corner. Is this overkill? Or just being safe?

Your rulings, please.

Thanks.
 
In our shop, godzilla tight isn't necessary. The vises are for holding the corners in place while the glue dries. Foamcore strips used here also. Are the long rails supported by something as they dry? We make triangle tubes from foamcore.

As for the extra glue, toenails and corner plates, I say better be safe (literally!) than sorry, especially for a heavy mirror.
 
Too much preasure on the joint can actually be detrimental in that it forses the glue out of the joint and not enough is left to make a perminat bond. More joints will fail from overtightening. as long as the joint is pulled up so that there is no crack it is tight enough.
 
Yes, we also support the ends of the rails with blocks that we've made that are equal to the heigth of the vices.
 
Too much pressure?

Ray said:
Too much preasure on the joint can actually be detrimental in that it forses the glue out of the joint and not enough is left to make a perminat bond. More joints will fail from overtightening...
Click to expand...

This is interesting news. Is there an authoritative published source or a glue manufacturer's written instruction that says too much pressure is detrimental?

One detriment of too much pressure would be crushed moulding, so there is a practical limit to vice pressure. Still, it seems to me that more pressure would increase penetration of the water-based glue into the grain of the wood.

Would be correct to conclude that, in the vice, less pressure is better than more pressure? I'd like to see some supporting information on that.

I have no supporting information, but I think more joints would fail from inadequate clamping, usually because the miters are imperfectly cut -- a very common problem. More vice pressure would compress the wood only slightly, but possibly enough to increase the area of contact and strengthen the adhesion.
 
Jim I agree and some where I remember reading that a light coat of glue is superior to a heavy coat since it will dry better when lightly spread. So with that in mind if you have enough glue to OOZ out when clamped tightly enough with out denting the molding ( although it does need to be tight enough to keep the legs from sliding when you may hammer a braid in ,even after back drilling)then I would suppose you have applied too much for that optimum bind.
I think the bond is formed when the glue integrates with the Grain of the molding sort of uniting the two pieces of wood.

I don't have any Glue bottles handy anymore but I think that is written on the instructions on the bottles.
BUDDY
 
Cool! The girls won and the boys are buying the pizza this Saturday.

:thumbsup:

Thanks for all the info.....
 
I use a Kwik Klamp (probably invented by a Kiwi) and IT makes the decisions for about how much pressure to apply.

One less reason to agonize.

Pizza sounds good though.

Buddy, you READ the directions? You are exceptional.
 
Ron I don't know how to take that .LOL being exceptional isn't always a GOOD thing.

But to add a bit more confusion to the mix here is Titebond's instruction;

Application Guidelines Application temperature Above 47?F.
Assembly time after glue application 10 minutes (70?F./50%RH)
Minimum required spread40 lbs. per 1,000 square feet
Required clamping pressure Enough to bring joints tightly together (generally, 100-150 psi for softwoods, 125-175 psi for medium woods and 175-250 psi for hardwoods)
Methods of application Plastic bottles for fine applications; glue may also be spread with a roller spreader or brush.
Cleanup Damp cloth while glue is wet. Scrape off dried excess.

Patent Pending

I have NO IDEA How you would meassure the PSI on your Stanley or other Vises but thay are different for different woodsand they are pretty tight.

That doesn't say how thick to apply the glue but in other applications of other types of glue they suggest the use of a trowel . that would lay down a considerable more glue that a brush or roller. ( in this case I would assume a artist brush or very small roller, and they do say "wipe off the excess")

I have an Email in to their tech support . If they answer I will also.
Enough Already? I am exceptional as you said Ron.
BUDDY
 
OK Here is the official response to this question from Titebond's Tech support officer:

This is an interesting discussion. I can see that most people are
addressing clamp pressure and glue spread.

In our experience, the tighter the joint is clamped, the stronger the
joint will be. Wood glues do not bridge a gap, even a small one. The
only time you can apply too much pressure is when you begin to crush the
pores of the wood. This is more likely to happen with soft woods.

Glue spread is a matter of experience. If your joint is well-fitted,
apply enough glue to one side that will ensure the other side of the
joint is completely wet-out by the glue, or apply to both sides. For
anyone who has a mil gauge, generally 5-7 wet mils will do it.

One problem with frames that I didn't see addressed is the fact that
mitered joints are always end grain, and that can present a problem with
gluing. The end grain acts like a straw, and wicks the glue away from
the joint before the glue can form a bond. This can be avoided by sizing
the end grain. This entails applying a mixture of glue and water in a
50:50 ratio to the end grain and allowing it to sit for a minute or two.
Then you should apply a normal amount of glue. The sizing gives the end
grain something to absorb so that the glue can stay in the joint and
work. Care should be taken if you are using any of the water resistant
or waterproof glues to not allow the sizing to dry before applying the
application of full-strength glue.

I hope this is what you needed.


So if you know what a "WET-Mil" is or how to measure it you now know exactly how much to apply. Except if the end grain draws away too much of the allowed glue.

But I went directly to the source so this should go a long way towards settling this question. Oh! the wonders of the Internet. Now if only I had claimed i knew all this with out giving anyone else credit. But then that would be Plagiarism and no one on TFG would do that would they. LOL
BUDDY
 
BUDDY said:
Now if only I had claimed i knew all this with out giving anyone else credit. But then that would be Plagiarism and no one on TFG would do that would they. LOL
BUDDY
Click to expand...

I dunno, Buddy, you took the words right outa my mouth!

Seriously, this is one of the most informative threads I have read for a long time.
 
Forgive me Bill I didn't know you worked for Titebond in tech support department . If I had I would have been sure to have mentioned your name as long as it isn't on my IGNORE list.But then I wouldn't have seen your last reply if it where, would I? LOL
BUDDY
 
"Starved glue joins" and "how much pressure is to much pressure" have been on-going discussions of contention in the woodworking industry for longer than if have been around... even at Titebond; and Buddy was able to solve the discussion with a couple of clicks of the mouse. Who would have thunk it. :D

I think that the answer is a lot more complicated than presented.

1) Viscosity is always a factor
2) Wicking of the moisture (water) in glue is always a factor (PVA)
3) Miters are not "end grain" they are 50-50. End-side.

If your miter cuts are perfect, a drop of glue in the middle of a 1" sq can be smeared by rubbing the two miter sides together untill there is adheasion. When you have full adheasion in all four jounts of a 6"x6" frame, the frame can be placed on a flat surface overnight to cure. The glue joint will be strong enough to hold up to some rough handling.

If you put a large rubberband around the frame, it will hold up to some VERY rough handling.

If you clamping very firmly, you can pop the frame apart very handily.
 
LURCHINGABOUT:
I didn't think ( thunk) I solved anything just complied some more pertinent DATA to be digested by those who have been involved in the on going discussion here on TFG.

As a matter of fact the issues you raise are indeed discussed in the links I sighted earlier from related glue experts. I don't pretend to have any expertise in this or any other topic I only wanted to share a way to check any information that may be puzzling anyone.

But then since you have only posted Twice maybe you missed those. BTW could you be a bit more specific on your profile? It sounds remarkably like what I would expect another GRUMBLERS to sound like if they wanted to be anonymous.

But thanks for bringing the additional info that may have been missed to the forefront.
BUDDY
 
Just use cut the moulding accurately and use Corner Weld, then clamping will become a small issue.
 
Lurch... Do you mean that a "firmly" clamped/glued frame will pop apart more easily than a glued frame with rubberbands around it? I'm no scientist, but this sounds odd. Could you explain for me?

Thanks.
 
Several of us have offered our relatively uneducated opinions on this, but Buddy has offered pertinent information from a manufacturer, which I would consider to be authoritative.

I'll take it.

Thanks, Buddy.
 
Pssst...anyone notice the absence of Baer today? And is it my imagination or does Lurch's profile and post sound just a tad bit like...Naw..he wouldn't! Would he??
 
Val I have to admit there has been more than once that registered Grumblers had more than one screen name. And I am on e who wishes that wasn't possible. But In this case the IP codes don't match. But I am not sharp enough to know if there is a way to get around even that method of checking IDENTITIES.

So anyone can assume any identity they wish on TFG. My only question is why would anyone want to? Why wouldn't any one want the rest of us to know actually who is saying what they just said?

More over why would anyone deliberately post an extremely vague profile that limits even our knowing where they are sending there reply from? I can fully understand not wanting the direct contact of emails but then don't we have a TFG MESSAGE board for those?But then maybe someone has found a way to avoid TFG's newest feature the IGNORE list by assuming a bogus identity. But I guess the List can just get longer it they make it.

Isn't it a shame all the improvisations Framer has had to come up with so some can hide their true identities so the rest of us won't know what they really think? Not that I am saying LURCHING is doing any of these.

It sure makes it look like they want to say something that can't be attributed directly to their real identity, and that raises some very unpleasant possibilities doesn't it.
BUDDY
But WELCOME LURCHINABOUT Please point out how I have again made another error, and give us a better profile.
 
Susan, "firmly" as in "tight" as in tighter than you want someone to grab your arm... will squeeze out the glue. You are left with the glue moisture that wicked into the fiber... but is not "gap bridging", nor will it create a suction when you rub the joint together. Wipe a thin coat on, and clamp gently. Try it, you'll like it.

Buddy, you seem to be fully of Road Rage lately. Please keep it off the public forums where people are asking for real framing help from other framers. Thank you.
 
Thanks Lurching... Will try your theory.
 
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