veneer splitting--anyone seen that happen lately??

Create a Post
B

BILL WARD

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Mar 25, 2004
Posts
2,451
Loc
Tampa, FL
have 4 sticks of LJ's Masai---red and coffee.....427383, 427385, 417383
and I cut a small frame, today, from a piece of 417383/coffee and noticed, when I went to join them, that there were white streaks on it. got to looking at the rest of the stick and it had a few more spots like that. So, I went to the 'stash' and checked out the other 3 pieces---they ALL have these places on them. I went to the samples and 2 of those are showing the same problem...got out my magnifier and it is from the veneer splitting. I have sold maybe 5 sticks of this stuff last year and wonder if those are coming back to haunt me-----anyone else seeing this metamorphosis??? will call the rep tomorrow and will let ya'all hear the outcome.......
 
I saw this once when a customer brought in a frame that was hanging in a very warm place (area exposed to sunlight for a few hours daily) which seemed to have caused the veneer to dry out and split.
 
I have recently removed pretty much all veneered woods from my wall. Larson Juhl's were removed a long time ago, due to issues with the laminate shrinking and peeling up, and also from cracking in the finish. The most recent deletion from my wall has been all of Studio's veneers, specifically Canto, Duet, Adagio, and Encore lines. What spurred this on was this:

About two years ago, when Canto first came out, I thought it was such a great line, that I purchased 100 feet of each color in the smaller profile for the holidays. Well, they turned out not to be such a hot seller here, and I had about 420 total feet left. I was finding that the finish was cracking all along the length. Not the veneer itself, which seems pretty stable, but the sealing finish. After having to go through almost 20 feet to cut an 11x14 frame, I knew something had to be done. After explaining the situation to them, Studio has graciously agreed to take the remaining length back and give me a credit.

That being said, I decided to check out all the veneers on my wall, and sure enough, every line I listed above had one or more profile that the finish was cracking on. Granted, this could be a manufacturing aberration, and maybe I got a bad batch. But seeing as these mouldings are in a climate controlled building with neither extremes in temperature or humidity, it concerns me that if this is happening to me here, what happens to the frame when I sell it to a customer. So I've opted to remove all the smooth veneers from all the companies I work with, and stick with the thicker veneers (such as LJ's Antica and Verona lines, and similar). Have never had a problem with them.
 
Sadly, I have pulled pretty much all veneers off my wall. Windemere came down years ago. Almost all my corner samples started lifting up at the seams. I thought Studio's were better since none of my corner samples showed signs of peeling but, I noticed a year or so ago that they too, started peeling too so, I had to dump those. I hated dumping any of them because they sold well but, I won't take that chance. I've been told that it is because our climate is so dry but, I don't buy that because I have heard of it happening all over the country. That is a good example of what a voice the G has.
 
I've had problems with that too though it seems to be just here and there. Studio did tell me that if they use wood for the base moulding that is too green, it dries out and causes the veneer to crack as it shrinks. I've seen the veneer shrink too leaving a larger crack where two pieces butt up together. I've contemplated removing the samples too but so far only one person has come back in with a veneer frame and that was because it completely delaminated. Hopefully no one else has had problems and if they have, they'll bring it back so I can fix it.
 
We've had a bit of a problem with this and Decor's high-gloss veneers too. Great line, but it's always cracked on a whole stick. I'm happy with them as a vendor but that particular line has unfortunately been a problem.

It seems it's not vendor specific, but style specific. Is that accurate?
 
cjmst3k said:
It seems it's not vendor specific, but style specific. Is that accurate?
Click to expand...

Not neccisarily. It depends on what the vendor specs call for. If the specs call for 4-6% casegoods Kiln dried for a case hardness.. the base wood should be so dry and "cased" a hard shell that resists moisture transfer over such small areas such as moulding. Usually it is a "call-out" for finer furniture on "carved" details and trim-out.

The species used as the under base is also a feature worth considering. So species of secondary woods such as pines resist becoming 6% or lower, and won't "case harden". And they are a species that I see more and more used as a base for very thick shells of compos that are moulded right onto the wood... which adds a lot of moisture.... in Asia. Then it is shipped here... and if the container was on the outside of the stack, and dark, during the summer...... thats a long 5 weeks to cook.

Veneers are not an easy thing to do, and do well. But it is the future of this industry, especially in burls. Diligence in observation will be the by-word in buying, stocking and selling these mouldings.
 
For all us laymen who don't have a clue what you just wrote, please explain in common terms what it is you are trying to say!! I have heard the term "case hardened" used for metal but case hardened wood?? I know the term and how it applies to wood handling but I don't understand how you used it here???

Here is an exerpt from the dictionary that may be of help:

"Case hardening in wood
The term case hardened is also used to describe lumber or timber that has been improperly kiln-dried. If dried too quickly, wood shrinks heavily on the surface, compressing its still damp interior. This results in unrelieved stress. Case hardened wood may warp considerably and potentially dangerously when the stress is released by sawing."

Now that I understand!! But I also want to learn more about how this flaw in the kiln drying process can be used to create top quality veneer moulding.
 
I had a few of Larson veneers come up, the rep always replaced or gave me a credit, do they know something? In general I find a lot of Larsons finishs lacking, they chip, rub, and peel off with little effort and I know that they know they (L-J) have problems. So if you have quality issues, send it back it's the only way they can improve.
 
I am afraid that Baer used case hardening expression in a personal way. The definition that Tom gave is correct. Such lumber would have built huge tenssion in it and bent and trwist out of control, under one's very eyes, as soon as it was cut and the "case armor" broken.
When case hardening is suspected, the entire lot of lumber must be re-moistened with steam (in the very same kiln chambers) and properly dried all over again.

But I am sure this is not what Baer wanted to get at and, since he loves experimenting in funny ways with frames and framers, I suspect that he wanted to see how many of todays's grumblers are more than phone/fax framing-operators and do understand and control their field of expertise. Tom, with your precipitous intervention you have possibly aborted a new generation of framers that would expertly handle corner samples and talks of mat colors and case hardened moldings.

Let this be a lesson and a stimulus for grumblers and lurkers alike to get academically and practically accomplished framers by taking 4 days intensive frame-ed classes at The American Picture Framing Academy or at any other private picture framing school or university out there.
 
Pulled all veneers long ago..the humiduty and heat and sun in Florida are just too much for them, once they get into the customers house is where most problems occur as we are very much into climate control in our shop and warehouse.
 
Ok, let me go into the boring stuff.

Kiln drying of most woods is done at a controlled 120-140 degrees Fahrenheit.
When the wood reaches a stable 4-6% moister content, it is considered ready for furniture grade construction. . .and is considered "stable"..... in other words expanding and contracting an 1/8" to 1/2" across a 40" wide table-top is considered "stable".

For some veneer applications that do not use a ply or MDO sub strait, the sub strait is re-inserted back into the kiln after the surface is preped... the temp is brought back up to 140 and held for a full 24 hrs which assures the lower moisture content and slightly hardens the shell.

I called my old teacher, who confirmed the term, but said that he also heard it referred to as "veneer casing" as well. He also pointed out that his shop was very unusual in that they had their own kiln to control moister contents in the many units he bought and stored long before they were turned into furniture.

We both agreed that many of the "tried and true" standard practices have since long gone. He never ordered a single "chop" his entire 45 years of doing framing... His idea of "raw moulding stock" was still providing shade for someone until needed.
 
It is surprising how classic technologies differ from one place to the other. Wonder if classic veneered furniture with real wood sub strait was undergoing same tempering treatment (in US) as veneered molding appears to be.

Some 25 years ago I had "invented" a veneering technology that allowed me to produce numerous veneered frames, on a regular base, without using kiln dried wood, much less case hardening the molding/frame after being prepared. I am embarrassed to say what glue I was using back then, but the fact remains that that veneer has not budged or peeled off the frames during this time despite being used mostly on cove and OG profiles, unlike LJ type of veneered moldings. Recently (that is six months ago) I had inspected some of my old time veneered frames (that belong to my relatives) and I was as happy with their aspect as I was when they were new. In fact my "technology" is still being used by individual frame-makers from my native city with consistently outstanding results and I, personally, never heard of veneered molding failures until I read about this on TG.

In my views veneered molding should be water under the bridge; there is nothing really special about this except for the fact that veneering is a very indulging process that allows for the use of low grade/quality (blemished, knots, discolored, formerly infested etc), air dried cheap woods. I am surprised to hear that LJ veneered molding is so unreliable that you prefer to take their corner samples off the wall. How's Roma doing with their veneered molding? Gee, there might be a business opportunity for me here, one that would bring grumblers to spend their money on my veneered molding :) (OK, not every single grumbler but just those who didn't take offense on my postings here, LOL).
 
Roma has become my lead moulding line lately and I sell a fair amount of Tabacchino in various profiles with no comebacks and no chipping or peeling problems yet. I have carried the line since returning to FL over 2 years ago and I haven't had a comeback or complaint on any of their line. The only complaint I have is trying to join some of their unique profiles with my older joining equipment.

I suspect that chipping would occur in any veneered moulding if the process wasn't standardized to something that really worked for applying veneer to a base wood but I also think that most veneer would have chipping problems if the chopper blades weren't razor sharp or the saw blades were slightly out of alignment or suffering runout causing the back of the blade contact to drag on the face of the moulding as the blade passed through the wood. Those teeth, after all, are travelling upwards through the kerf and not actually cutting anything. If they drag on the surface of the moulding, they easily could throw chips of veneer off the moulding and cause bare spots or unfinished little spots on the miter edge.

Of course, those more experienced in this extensive art of woodworking would know much more than this ol' gearhead about the finer operation of such things.

For all I know about it, the whole line of Chipping Dale furniture could have been born from this very problem. :icon9: :icon21:
 
veneers

We had several of these problems in our store. Larson has always been willing to replace any pieces that have problems, but we tend to discontinue anything that might make a client have to bring something back later. The problem mouldings almost always seem to come from the Larson production facilities in Southeast Asia (where wood is plentiful). Who knows how long the moulding might look fine before it finally does dry out on the inside and cause problems with the veneer.

If the moulding is a problem don't let it represent your work in someone's home.
 
Anyone else curious as to what adhesive Cornell used??
 
Create a Post
Back
Top