Vendor Discounts

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NcFramingChick

CGF, Certified Grumble Framer
Joined
Feb 10, 2007
Posts
112
Loc
High Point NC
You don't have to name the supplier of course, but what is the most discount you've been able to negotiate with a moulding supplier. I've been crunching numbers from last year and working on ways to make more $$$ this year. Thanks :smiley:
 
Let's see, this is a bit personal. Discounts are hard to get. It depends on many circumstances such as number of vendors you carry, amount of business you do with them, how often you do business, how easy the relationship works, the list could go on.

So I think it is wise to negotiate. It is like buying a car, you go in wanting to spend between 10K to 15K. Then you both workout something that works. If you were buying six you would get a better discount. If you were buying more often better yet. If you have eight companies that you use and spend $100 a month with each...don't bother approaching them.

PL
 
About 40%, but this comes with volume.
 
A discount off of what?

Markups vary from dealer to dealer, just like retailers.

Are you asking off of list price, 1,000 ft prices, 100 ft prices, chop prices?

More information is needed.
 
Like Jerry said, it's not that easy to apply to a specific situation.

One supplier I have promoted from a runner-up to Vice President gives me: Join at chop price, 20% off length (even minimal amounts in length), 20% off mats and FC, etc.

Your mileage may vary.
 
I'm looking to negotiate mainly on my length moulding price and not in large quantities.

Kirstie thats an awesome discount! Is that for length and how much volume is required? You sure know your stuff girl!!
 
Studio Moulding usually gives a 40% discount for footage ordered at the WCAF (as do other vendors)- so now is the time to look at bread and butter items and lay them in.

If you are LOYAL to vendors, then they usually reciprocate in kind with negotiated deals. But I am sure that Kirstie is not talking about a 20' order every now and then.

I can concur that there are 40% (or greater) discounts available from vendors but your loyalty and volume need to support their generosity. If you are buying $20-25K per year of moulding from one vendor, that is one thing, but if you aren't doing a $1,000 per month then I don't think it is appropriate to expect 40% off.
 
Discounts are not a "across the board" banana.

first you have the green apples.... deep discount and free shipping on "Box" but nothing on anything else.

Then there are the Hybrid apples... Deeper discount on box and 10% off on length over 20'

Then there is the Fuji apples.... nice discount on box, 10% on length, and free shipping

The Star Fruit is rather nice in that no special on box, 30% on length over 100', 10% on all chop and length otherwise... unless its one of the 12 OEMs.. then its a flat 20% Jan-Oct 25% in Nov & Dec.

Oranges run another 19 gamuts depending on need and use, pick-up or ship, UPS or common carrier...

Berries. Ouch... no, I don't even want to get into berries......

but like everyone is saying.. what you negotiate, will come down to what your needs are, and how you are performing in the eyes of the vendor.

I know of one vendor who has about 30 different ways to slice the "usual" melon..... and "commercial" framers are a whole different volume structure.

Most reps are more than willing to talk things through with you. It's not an adversarial deal of them trying to gouge you the deepest and give up the least.... most vendors are looking to reach a equitable solution that keeps you and them happy, and works toward you being successful, which in turn keeps you as a successful customer.

When a vendor-framer relationship turns adversarial, then both loose. We both work for the person who puts the final product on their walls. And we need to work together.

As an Independent Rep, I have to balance the needs of my Vendors and your wanting a break. If you're new to me, a discount ain't going to happen. If you place a 2,000' moulding order, I can get you a break on the order.... but if the next month or eight, you are ordering 2-5 chops a month.... you're a one shot pony.
If you are hitting in at 750-1,000 feet of moulding a month or quarter.... I'm probably going to go to bat for you before you ask. But if you're on the margin, then you probably need to talk to me and see what we can work out.

I know you wanted a simple answer of LJ 30%, Studio 40%, and Nielson 70%.... but it just doesn't work that way.

And those really nice 30-40% are usually based on some very heavy volume... and we're not talking chops or sticks..
 
Ok...saying all that. What about if you were willing to make a certain vendor exclusive and only sell their moulding. Wouldn't that earn a deeper discount??
I'm truly leaning that way to save more money in 2008. I just wasn't sure what I should expect for this kind of deal.
 
I think you simply have to ask what they can do for you. Before you call, if you can, have your past numbers spent with them, by month together. Know, if you can, what you spent with them last year, and any previous years back. If you plan to spend more with them, let them know what that might be per month.

I started my business carrying moulding from three vendors and it has worked well for purchase volume. I might someday go up to 5, but not likely for a while yet. I buy supplies from two vendors - soon to be one vendor because the other cannot seem to get me anything without an extensive backorder and I simply cannot afford to do business that way. Thus far, limiting suppliers is working well for me. I am more in line in my spending with more established shops and I am able to negotiate a little. It's a good thing. :)
 
NcFramingChick said:
Ok...saying all that. What about if you were willing to make a certain vendor exclusive and only sell their moulding. Wouldn't that earn a deeper discount??
I'm truly leaning that way to save more money in 2008. I just wasn't sure what I should expect for this kind of deal.
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As someone asked before, what are you basing your discounts on? You said length but some vendors have different base prices for length, base, 100ft, box, 1000ft.

You mention that you may go exclusive with a vendor and that should get a better discount. Well, not so, it al depends on what type of volume you do, if you are a 100K in sales frame shop that may only be 15-20K in moulding for them. Depending on a supplier that may not be much of an account.

And, as Baer mentioned, it depends on your relationship with that supplier. If they were already one of your main suppliers then you may be able to negotiate better than your current #4 vendor.

You have to remember you are going to your suppliers as a customer. When a customer comes into your shop for framing and tells you that they want a better price and they will use you exclusively for the next year, what do you do?

Best thing you can do is have your prior years sales info for not only your moulding, your glass, mats, and foam. negotiate from there and if a deal is made, make sure to live up to your end or you won't be able to negotiate again, with any vendor.
 
Rob Markoff said:
Studio Moulding usually gives a 40% discount for footage ordered at the WCAF (as do other vendors)- so now is the time to look at bread and butter items and lay them in.

If you are LOYAL to vendors, then they usually reciprocate in kind with negotiated deals. But I am sure that Kirstie is not talking about a 20' order every now and then.

I can concur that there are 40% (or greater) discounts available from vendors but your loyalty and volume need to support their generosity. If you are buying $20-25K per year of moulding from one vendor, that is one thing, but if you aren't doing a $1,000 per month then I don't think it is appropriate to expect 40% off.
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Well said, Rob, and it is usually more than 20-25K per year. Discounts are earned over a lot of time. And even with a great deal of volume, there are some that still only offer 20%. (And some that may be dropped.)

These days the hardest thing to negotiate is the freight deal. Everyone is getting killed by freight, including the vendors.

Max had a great show discount last year, as did Design Guild. Not sure if they are running these again as our Max rep did not come out to show us the line early this year.

We inventoried all our in-stock moulding this week to see what we might want to stock up on at the show if there are good deals.

If you are taking on new vendors, come prepared with credit sheets. We are trying not to add new vendors this year but will look at some of the hard wood dealers and smaller firms--always looking for the unusual, but we don't expect deals there.
 
Here in Perth the only way you would get anything like a 40% discount on moulding would be by buying box lots of discontinued stuff. There are some discounts on offer at trade nights but usually only to the order of 20% or so. Most are now offering discounts of around 10% for orders of 30metres or more and have some pretty competitive pricing on box lots.

We are probably overserviced with suppliers so competition is pretty keen at that level and their margins are tight. So much so that most of them balk at accepting payment by American Express because of the higher service fees.
 
Syndrome: desperate part time wanna be wife who's dying to get marital protection but has little to commit in return. If you are so desperate for the deepest discount possible as you come across to be, you must be desperately struggling to stay alive in business, not merely save some money during 2008. Business main reason is making, not saving money, therefore I guess that you need much more than an exclusive vendor to hold your hand. You need to find ways at making money.
If I read from distance your situation correctly (no confirmation signature requested) then what do you expect your vendors think and do for you?
 
O.o

Wow...I mean I know I have heard that you have some troubles communicating Whynot...but your post above is so offensive, and on so many levels!

Your message of "hey, sounds as if discounts may not fix all your problems, maybe you need to look to better ways to make money" came through loud and clear.

Why the insulting claptrap around it? I cannot believe that it was a "language barrier" that caused you to type that.

I am calling "Shenanigans" here, and I think you need to give the original poster an apology.
 
Oh yeah, I should have said "you seam to be in deep trouble this year, but the good news is that a vendor may give you 50% discount across the board, or propose you and you may hit the loto and solve the problem. Keep looking for potential grooms and buy loto tickets", right?

Please rephrase my words in any convinient way possible, but keep the message unchanged. I'll be glad to addopt it as mine and even present my appologies for not using a coat of sugar on a bitter pill.

I am a vendor and I believe that I (first person singular pronoun) need to beg a VERY good retailer to become my exlusive outlet (and that would be absurd too) in that strip AND reward him for doing just that. Loyalty is hard to check and "enforce". If a retailer is not PROUD to be carrying that single vendor, and only does it in return for a very large discount (a sort of "parnership" in costs if possible), who needs an exclusive deal with that retailer? If that location was a good one and the framing business safe and prosperous, no retailer in minds woild ever offer exclusivity in return for 40% discount. Ask Kirstie if she'd consider selling only that supplier that gives her 40% off.
You, V, must have a problem with either seeing or accepting reality the way it is if you are so afraid of words. My words can be right or wrong; in either case they can't hurt anyone's business. Reality will do when ignored and sugar coated which used to be the habit of many prolific old grumblers today conspicuously absent from sight.
 
Not to come to Cornels defense Michael, but there is some language problem here and not necessarily Cornels.

Sometimes things are said, but are not quit clear. A short analogy can sometimes bring that clarity. Although the desperate would-be house frau is harsh, who among us hasn't met the collage co-ed working on her M R S degree? As too there are some males of the same order.

Cornel points out a much needed section of the mix in business that needs addressing; because it is part of the whole.

If one is doing fine otherwise, and has some purchase track record to support the case of discount then thats fine and they are looking to better their position.

If the poster's business plan is only feasible IF deep discounts are acquired, then the Cornel's spotlight is very valid.

If the search for deeper discounts is just a knee jerk 'always ask for a deeper discount'..... then I think most of the posters on this forum and every other small business person would recognize that person for who they are.

And if Cornel needs to apologize for being brutally upfront when talking about business.... then there needs to be some Big Girl Panties bought long before discounts are discussed.

As the rest of this year and into the next few plays out, discounts are going to be re-evaluated and reduced, how people relate to vendors and vise-a-versa will be up for redefinition, and how we conduct business (ALL of it) will become more brutally extracting. And I don't mean only on this forum, but all forums, magazines, classes, and over the counter. How you bring in customers, and the quality and quantity of sales will be a larger focus in the coming years than who gets 25% verses 20%.

It may be still tacky to ask your neighbor how much they really paid for their house...... but "How much down?" and "How was your finances structured?" are becoming very real and valid questions. Why? Because when a house gets sold in a foreclosure, the value of the entire neighborhood goes down, and the close neighbors get the biggest hit.

How does that relate to our business? Huge. But let me leave you with two things that we don't even think about anymore:

"Free" corner samples.
"Free" shipping because it's delivered by the company truck.

Even air isn't "free".

Just because the classes that are being taught in a week are very fresh in my mind..... not one is offered about "getting a better discount from your suppliers". But getting people in, making the sale, making better sales, dealing with debt load, leveraging your advertising, and every other business issue is covered along side cutting oval glass by hand.
 
NcFraming, I have to chime in one more thing here because you were asking an innocent question about how the business works. If you carry fewer vendors you will do more volume with those vendors and have proportionately smaller costs per foot on freight. And in time your volume will grow and you may earn larger discounts.

There may come a time when you will look at those volumes and feel it is time to ask for a better deal--never hurts to ask occasionally--its only a phone call to a district manager or rep. When theat day comes, have your figures in front of you to back up your request.

We have never wanted to be a one vendor shop, although believe me, we have received such proposals, because we need a breadth of styles that are not available with, say, one of the larger vendors, and because we don't want to look like every other shop in town.

I'll bet many of us on this forum are now struggling with the problems of having too many vendors, large freight bills for 12' of length, and boxes of unopened samples that we can't get to. So if you choose your vendors very carefully with a plan in mind for what type of styles you want to carry based upon what your market might want, and look at who can supply you with the broadest range, the best price, and the best freight, you can come up with a plan early in the game rather than letting yourself become deluged over the years with too many vendors and weak discounts.

I am not excluding myself from this advice!

And Baer's right, there is no free shipping. You pay for it in the product. You just mark up the moulding with the freight included, but you feel like you got the freight free and let's face it, it is very convenient when you need one stick of purple bamboo moulding with a grasscloth mat.
 
I'm going to ignore the fact that some people love insulting others. Its ok though...I guess they're either bored or lonely. And don't try to read into someones business by a question...I don't know of a single person who wouldn't like to save money. Thank you to all who responded...I do value all the help I've received from The Grumble members.
 
Not asking anyone to sugar coat anything, but we CAN choose to have straight talk without outright insulting people. Cornel is completely capable of discerning the difference. I am no longer buying the "misunderstood genius" or "language differences" excuse in his case as I have seen his discourse get crystal clear.

We teach people how to treat us. Internet forums are no different. When outright unprovoked insults begin flying, people participating in that behavior need to be called on it, or this place just becomes an unruly playground with a variety of bullies walking over people because we let them.

The point he was making was very good, and I appreciate his expertise. But the dose of belittlement served up with the answer was what I am objecting to. Baer, your point was excellent too, and I thank you. :)
 
I just didn't see his analogy to be a personal attack, I think it was just a general analogy.....

but based on results... it may have hit to close for comfort. But I would be hard pressed to come up with a better analogy that happens to fit a very small portion of this industry. As do many other generalize stereotypes that are thrown around here.... cheap photographers, cheaper artist, skin-flint woodworker husbands, bored houswife/mother with basement/garage . . . on and on.

But asking questions doesn't mean you have to like the answers. Some probably hate Kirstie now because she gets a huge discount and now they will sit in their quiet pity-pot and mope... or stomp their little shoes and not want to play anymore.

I personally think if very unfair that Bill Gates has a fatter bank account then I do.... so I'm going to try and learn Linex..... NOT. :D
 
This reminds me of a conversation between two consumers:

"You don't have to name the frame shop of course, but what is the most discount you've been able to negotiate on custom framing?"

I'm sure that kind of conversation happenns all the time. Yes, we all want to save money.
 
Verdaccio said:
.... I buy supplies from two vendors - soon to be one vendor because the other cannot seem to get me anything without an extensive backorder and I simply cannot afford to do business that way.... :)
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I agree with you about the vendors; I'm still keeping both, but the one that was primary is now becoming more secondary; yes, they do have an extensive backorder list, but they were able to help me quickly a few times, so I will remember their past help and still buy some from them; if it is not in stock though, I go elsewhere.
 
It all comes down to how you buy. Vendors are in a very difficult financial position (not all, just most). As the economy has changed, vendors need to reduce inventory. Most vendors place orders from overseas that extend 12 to 18 months out and can not stop what is coming. They need to clear items that the rate of sale will not clear based on current business volumes.

I am strictly in stock and therefore purchased 11,000 feet in Atlanta. The purchase consisted of high quality finishes of wood, plain leafed, ornate leafed and colors. Moulding widths from 1" to 6" mostly in the 3" range and the total purchase including freight was $6,000. The regular length price on this purchase was over $20,000.

You do not need to take box quantities to achieve this.

Now if you can handle one reasonable freight order per month you can switch over to in stock and in this economy you should be able to bring your average moulding cost down to under 50cents per foot.

Specialty products such as closed corner or 22k leaf frames will not see much in the way of discounts because those vendors tend to need huge increases in production to reduce production costs.
 
Count me as one that didn't see Cornel's analogy offensive

Perhaps a better answer to NC Chick (and I'm sure someone might find "chick" offensive) is that discounts are given to what you negotiate, not what you deserve.

But, at the show (as Rob suggests) there are "unearned" discounts aplenty

In my "Retailer" class we go over many ways to negotiate and buy items

What you earn and keep is up to you and your volume
 
Cheaper isn't always cheaper, most of the time its a pain the @ss wrapped up as a bargain.

One company always comes in trying to get me to sign on with a 40% discount. When they are giving that big of a discount for nothing, the product is overpriced to start with. From experience I know that the waste and blemishes on their product means I need to order 125 ft to complete a 100 ft job. The company that I buy from is more expensive per foot, but is cheaper per job because it is a better product.
 
Verdaccio said:
Not asking anyone to sugar coat anything, but we CAN choose to have straight talk without outright insulting people. Cornel is completely capable of discerning the difference. I am no longer buying the "misunderstood genius" or "language differences" excuse in his case as I have seen his discourse get crystal clear.
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Michael, you aren't off the mark. Cornel's early days here were disruptive and he was banned more than once. The language barrier doesn't count anymore, he knows exactly what he is saying. He actually has lots to contribute as a vendor but most of it is lost on many of us because he is very defensive in his replies. What I mean by that is he has a very hard time reading about us looking for ways to appeal to a broader market as in less expensive alternatives etc. He sees the framing industry eroding away and feels threatened by it. If we want cheaper alternatives for our customers or look for ways to get better prices we are cheap untalented hacks not standing up for quality and the utmost craftsmanship in our work. We are trying to make a living in this very tenuous marketplace and making adjustments to appeal to what the marketplace demands and he resents it because he is selling a very high end wonderfully crafted product and it makes him nervous as he sees his base erode. Things like discounts from vendors, free corner samples, polystyrene and generally cheaper alternatives will elicit a negative response from Cornel. There are more of us concerned about offering less expensive alternatives than ever before. Most of our suppliers are developing less expensive alternatives, even the big guys like LJ, Roma etc. I don't blame him for the concern but he is blaming the wrong people which is us!
 
Kathy,

I respectfully disagree with your perception about my purpose and reason of being on this forum.

Firstly, I am in no danger of going out of business because I make quality frames, quite the contrary. I was, am and will be addressing a small market that will always be there, with its very refined, specific, critical needs and purchasing power to buy quality frames. My business actually increased in time while mid and low end framers lost business to BB's and are closing shops in large numbers. From 1997 today half of then existing framers went out of business. You thought that high enders were the making of those numbers? Think again. I can't recall one name from my costumers list that went out of business in last 10 years!

In reverse, today I saw unframed so called "Collector’s prints" being sold in a Flying J general store and I expect to find framed prints and mirrors in next one I'll visit, if you grasp my hint.

For your records, those who sell plastic frames and chose to compete with BB's never been my clients, so, you falsely speculate that I cry over loosing something I never had (framers wanting cheaper alternatives for their clients) and feeling threatened by things that don't compete with my product but yours. Incidentally, LJ lately embraced hand finished, water gilded in genuine gold leaf custom made frames, not plastic Louis XIVs, and I hear that Roma is right behind LJ and getting ready for the same move with a larger splash.

Please mark my words.
Mid and low end framers (and, I repeat, those are not my clients) are in real danger of extinction because they kept nothing of special value about their business, that is to say nothing that can't be duplicated industrially and be offered for less than they can make it themselves for. Most every other type of business is feasting at what once was framers' turf. Framers gave others the lethal weapons that are now turned against them. Look at what "designing a frame" and "making a frame" came to mean in today's independent framers's lingo. Today framers are the third or fourth generation down on this path to self destruction; they arrived to a point where they can function without technically making frames, without inventory, without chopper, without the slightest understanding of what it takes to make, finish, alter or fix a frame, but can't survive without a fax, a phone, a large window, 2000 corner samples on the wall and a computer assisted mat cutting machine. All those changes encouraged standardization and increased productivity, but what's driven by volume and productivity is no art, is nothing special and irreplaceable, and sooner or later will end up by being made industrially for pennies apiece.

Being ready to throw the towel in the ring at the end of your lease, you are a living example of this destructive process although still unaware of what hit you so hard. You are unable to grow and sell cheap frames by the tons, and equally unable to produce something of demand that would be at the same time of high value, unique and distinctively yours, something that the large frame industry either can't or don't bother to copy. Funny that you thought that I was lamenting for my business and showed others how to read my case, when you failed monumentally at reading yours (leave alone Mark Bluestone's "How to be a Survivor" article in a recent PFM).
 
This is going nowhere fast. Do we all remember what our mothers told us, "If you don't have anything nice to say, shut the h3ll up!"

Let's just stop before this gets nasty.

Back to the original question. If you want a discount, ask for it. Be prepared to explain why you desrve it and be prepared for less of a discount than you think you deserve or even total rejection.
 
I commend NC Chick for addressing an issue in a businesslike manner that too often is ignored by many small independent retailers. Whether or not your business is struggling or financially successful it is important to address all costs associated with bringing your product to market.

In a market where sales are dwindling due to price resistance or a shrinking customer base it may be very difficult to increase margins to offset the profit erosion caused by stagnant or decreasing sales. Therefore it is imperative that every cost associated with your product be reviewed to see where savings can be found.

There are two ways to increase margins: Sell at a higher net price or reducing your net costs. Eliminating waste, negotiating better pricing and analyzing vendor performance all will serve to reduce your COGS. Pruning variable expenses and looking at your fixed costs to be sure they really are fixed is another way to cut expenses.

A very small increase in margins can filter down heavily to the bottom line over the course of a year. Often it can make the difference between success and failure of a business.
 
I wonder if this whole discussion should be moved to the business issues tab-

Now that we're discussing the effects of buying better vs charging appropriately-

In my class, Proven Pathways to Profit, we examine the effects of buying better vs charging appropriately on the bottom line.

One of the best benchmarks is the COM (cost of materials) as a percentage of sales. I don't use or recommend COG (cost of goods) because we have to convert the materials we purchase into a sale-able product. Therefore, a certain percentage of your direct labor costs needs to be factored into a COG cost and we are talking about the raw materials here.

Out of curiousity NC, would you share your COM figure? Anyone else? Do you track it on a regular basis?

I beleive Bob Carter has a system to track the COM per work order written to identify weak pricing per job (and not wait until the end of the month to see there is trouble and have to go back to each WO to identify mispriced areas.

My COM for everything we buy (including art and photoframes) runs between 22-26%.

If your (anyone reading) COM is 30% (or higher), you have a problem that is more easily addressed by increasing the selling price than buying better.

Yes, buying better can help the bottom line, but the most effective way to reduce the COM as a percentage of sales is to charge more. And, we're not talking about a significant increase in selling price to see the effect. $1 - $2 per work order may be all it takes.

And yes, freight is an area we sometimes overlook in calculating the selling price of the goods sold.
 
Hi Rob-I would agree on a CoM method if we were truly able to parcel out direct labor costs-those directly responsible for mfgr. I think we run a fairly sophisticated operation and I am certain we cannot definitively separate those values( how much electricity, how much insurance, how much anything)

In truth, very few track anything meaningful

Bottom line: Whatever you do to monitor, do it consistently and do it uniformly

It's only one tool we ought to use
 
Being a specialty retailer, I'm concerned that the prices from my vendor are low enough so that my competitors are not getting a better deal than I am for the same product* and high enough so that the vendor does not feel pressure to destroy their quality in order to provide it as cheaply as possible.







*because my competitors are too stupid to take the extra savings as profit.
 
Whynot said:
Kathy,

Being ready to throw the towel in the ring at the end of your lease, you are a living example of this destructive process although still unaware of what hit you so hard. You are unable to grow and sell cheap frames by the tons, and equally unable to produce something of demand that would be at the same time of high value, unique and distinctively yours, something that the large frame industry either can't or don't bother to copy. Funny that you thought that I was lamenting for my business and showed others how to read my case, when you failed monumentally at reading yours (leave alone Mark Bluestone's "How to be a Survivor" article in a recent PFM).
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Ha, Ha, Cornel, I tried to write a snarky posting in the same tone you write yours, as in making wild assumptions on other posters you know nothing about. I don't have the mean spirited nature in me to go for the jugular like you do but I figure you got my intent. I think you contribute plenty to this board. I am always baffled as to why you disparage us so much. You have a very specific product that by your own admission is only in demand by a very narrow group of frameshops. There isn't one of us here who would not want to be positioned in that upper echelon of clients who demand only the best at any price. Sadly, the percentage of us hear "Give me what's cheapest" everyday. One way to improve your margin is to find a way to buy for less or buy well as I think the original poster was asking. It may not have been worded the best but I got the intent behind it. I did not read any desperation in her posting.

I also knew you would take a shot at me since I am closing my business but that is okay. Your assessment of me could not be further from reality. I have not gone the cheap route with my customers. I have added some less expensive frames to my mix because I am not positioned to sell only high end. But, I don't have anything on my wall that I consider junk or low end by any means. I don't want to brag or anything but occasionally I even throw in a double mat or something in order to razzle dazzle my customers into thinking I am a skilled framer. I do however regret the error of my ways changing the name of my store to "Cheap Frames By the Tons". I was just sure that was the answer to all my problems. Well, live and learn.

In all seriousness though.............................I have not failed monumentally in reading my business. Quite the opposite. I've made no bones on this forum about my lousy start in biz. I've been very up front about my struggles and shortcomings. My decision to stop was a sound decision based on my situation, the current economy and the condition of the framing industry as I see it. The deciding factor came to me when I realized even if I had the money to move and position myself better I just don't think it is a sound thing to to at this time. The industry is too unstable and I don't believe I have the chops to be aggressive enough. I don't consider that failure I consider that looking honestly at my future and making a wise choice, for me. 6.5 years of running a biz without a net and having to learn as I go is hardly a failure. I wish things were different, but their not. I've made a choice I not only live with but I embrace that decision. I am not running away sniveling with all these cheap ### frames you speak of trailing behind me.

Back to the topic at hand.
 
Whynot said:
Kathy...Being ready to throw the towel in the ring at the end of your lease, you are a living example of this destructive process although still unaware of what hit you so hard. You are unable to grow and sell cheap frames by the tons, and equally unable to produce something of demand...
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Cornel, if you knew Kathy and her situation in business as I do, you would show her more respect, and she would deserve it.
 
DANG!

I'm pretty new to this place and I didn't realize that things could get so personal.

I'm here to learn and grow, not read pages of people throwing insults. I'd also like to say that perhaps Whynot should be a little more careful with what is said. After all, we are all potential customers and based on what I just read, I wouldn't buy #### from that company no matter how awesome it is.
 
Kathy, you're speaking for me. Thanks!

I don't see how we can get to where we did from that one simple question. It's one that I read and thought, "Yea I wonder what is typical?"

In spite of everything, I would like to ask to those that took the time and answer, without all the assumptions, ya think that applies to manufacturers and suppliers alike? Is there anybody getting anywhere near these kinds of discounts from local suppliers?
 
Hmm!! This thread really grew some legs while I wasn't looking.

While I agree Whynot (Cornell?) will never worry Dale Carnegie in the P.R. stakes he has made a very valid point about where a framing business should be positioning itself in the market. For most of us running smaller operations there is no point in chasing the "bottom feeder" customers. We can only make a comparatively small number of frames so let's make quality and expensive ones which give us a return on our time and the investment we have made in our equipment.The discounted "box" lines and other low-end products have a place in the mix but they should only be a small proportion of the range.

On the matter of vendor discounts, yes, it is sound business to ask and see if there is any way of extracting more but it is probably more important to keep an eye on those trading figures. It is too easy to let small increases in both material and overhead costs "slide" and gradually erode profitability. Small, regular adjustments to the price list are far more palatable to customers than a sudden hike.
 
Emibub, I certainly wouldn't ever consider 6 1/2 years in business a failure in any sense. That's a good long run in a retai business where you're catering to the public every step of the way. You've probably got more courage than the rest of us who are content to sit and complain about business rather than to get out and find something else to do for a living. Good luck with your future.
 
(Shameless plug - and on topic)

If you look around, you will find that there are vendors that have discount policies that are good for small shops. Munn Frameworks sells Munn chops with a discount based on dollar volume and free shipping with a reasonably low minimum. I haven't looked at their book lately, but with even the 1" Louis XVI retailing for about $30 a foot with almost no customer resistance, the $500 average a month in wholesale chop purchases per month to qualify for 25% off is not hard to reach. No one in the industry has a finer line of antique reproduction frames than Munn. That combined with the chop discount and reasonably priced Antique Metal finishes has made this company a gold mine for my small shop. The foot long samples also help close sales over lesser, cheaper competitors.
 
Paul - no website.

Munn Frameworks
2230 NW 22nd St
Suite 1
Pompano Beach, FL 33069
800-322-6464

Ask for Max (Not to be confused with APF-Munn's Max) or Jason.

The line includes chops of any moulding seen on www.abemunn.com
 
Jim, thanks for coming to my defense.(my hero) I really did not need to defend myself to cornel's remarks but when somebody puts something ugly like that out there about yourself even though most people know he is full of hooey some don't. It was so nice of Michael to demand an apology from him after he posted such a negative response to the original poster that I thought an explanation of sorts was in order.
 
Jay H said:
Kathy, you're speaking for me. Thanks!

I don't see how we can get to where we did from that one simple question. It's one that I read and thought, "Yea I wonder what is typical?"

In spite of everything, I would like to ask to those that took the time and answer, without all the assumptions, ya think that applies to manufacturers and suppliers alike? Is there anybody getting anywhere near these kinds of discounts from local suppliers?
Click to expand...

You mean distributors? No of course not. You have to be willing to order direct and order in a certain amount of length volume. Actually, I don't know much about chops.
 
I didn't think so. My main supplier, South Star, out of Nashville already has some pretty agressive prices. They do discount and I show them much loyalty. But the kinds of discounts I see tossed around here are so deep I coudln't imagine a local supplier offering anything the sort.

I don't consider chops in any disscussion because I think I have bought less than 5 in my life. But if I were to order chops on a regular basis, I would expect a deep discount even from a local supplier. Those prices are off the charts and joins? Well forget that jazz.

At trade shows I don't know if I've ever gotten less than 40%.
 
Every manufacturer we deal with (and distributor, for that matter) has a section in their price list outlining their discount schedules. Usually the discounts are broken down into, say, 5% for orders over 500 ft, 10% for orders over 1,000 ft and so on, the largest discount being for box quantities. The Larson discount at 1000 ft. is 20% plus another 5% for quick pay. That’s a chain discount so the total is a little less than 25%; that’s not a very good deal but we only buy legacy moulding from them and it’s difficult to get much over a 1000 ft. We sure as heck wouldn’t make a less than 1000 ft. order. We almost never order less than 2,500 ft. because of freight costs. For most of our orders freight adds about .10 a ft. to the cost of moulding. We’ve found that our major suppliers will sell us any amount of moulding for the box price based on past business. Our LaMarche discount was 40% until they folded. They considered us an OEM client as do several other manufactures still. I doubt we’d order from anyone who didn’t offer a 30% discount for length moulding. We get well over two thirds of our length moulding for 35% off list. And there are always deals. The effective discount for some Viking moulding hovers around 70%. We bought the last of the LaMarche moulding from Universal for 60% off.

If I were starting out today, I’d try to order at least 1000 ft. per order. I’d try to stock around 150 patterns and carry 50 ft. of each. My “value line” would be my main line (as it is today) and the pricy line would be special order (read chop)moulding on a section by itself. (80% of our current sales are from our stocked value line (around 1000 patterns) and 20% are high priced chops and closed corners, but 50% of our moulding problems come from those 20% or so chops. Our COM is under 18% and that includes glass, prints, freight in, etc. and we have very competitive prices.
We’ve never been a one man shop, or a two man shop for that matter. We try to always have 6 people plus a frame maker every day (three at each store). There are times during each day when all 6 are waiting on customers. I have a dread that we’ll have someone walk out because she hasn’t been waited on promptly. No customer is going to want to hang around for half an hour while we design a frame for a difficult customer. I can’t help but think that a shop has to be a certain size (my guess is 3 to4 people) to be viable. It would be very difficult for one or two people to generate enough revenue to make a decent return.

Even in the beginning, we always bought mat board at the 500 sheet price and frequently at the 1,000 sheet price. We buy enough now to always get the 1000sheet price plus freight from a local distributor, in fact from two. There are just too many advantages to stocking what you sell and getting volume going.

The key to getting suppliers to work with you is to buy reasonable quantities and pay promptly. I know we get some stuff at pretty near cost to help keep the supplier's volume up, but that deal wouldn't be available if the supplier thought there was a chance he wouldn't get payed and promptly; they have cash flow problems, too.
 
Now THAT was the man I was waiting to hear from. Thanks Warren. That's about as definitive as it gets. Stick a fork in it.
 
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