Vendor Ads/framing standards

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TGFU

CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Joined
Aug 1, 2003
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Illinois
Why is it that we continue to see our vendor ads showing a canvas in their frames that are not deep enough to accommodate stretcher bars, back board, and not to mention a fabric liner or dust cover? Or, have you ever seen ads in one of our own industry journals and wonder how they fit everything (fabric liner, fillet, floating with spacer, or stacked mouldings) in that shallow frame? There was one just recently, and I duplicated it using corner samples. There wasn't even enough room for a filler board, much less the artwork! I just had a customer bring in an ad from one of our well known national vendors showing just that, and now she wants to use that same frame for her canvas. Sure, it's a beautiful frame, but way too shallow for framing a canvas. And now I'm the 'bad guy' for having to tell the customer why she can't use that frame. Have you ever looked at the back of some of the vendor wall models? Some of them look like they were framed to sell in a furniture store, instead of a custom frame shop......stretchers sticking out the back of the frame. (Now that I think about it, you see this type of treatment in many 'high end' galleries too). I think it's time for all of us to encourage our vendors to start framing their canvases according to the PPFA guidelines. If they start framing according to standards, maybe they'll start making more frames with a rabbet depth of 1" or more.

I'm interested in hearing your thoughts on this issue.
 
We share your pain, Jim.

Our moulding vendors respond to what they know. They do not know anything about framing standards, but they know we want less expensive mouldings that look more expensive. One way to do that is to use less wood by making the moulding shallower. Works for them, if not for us.

Actually, we can (and do) use shallow-rabbet mouldings for canvas paintings, but we have to make provisions for them. A stacked moulding, back-box, RabbetSpace, or other method of extending the rabbet depth makes a huge difference in the fitting procedure, enabling us to install the proper glazing and a solid backing board.
 
Jim,

This practice goes back hundreds of years, literally... Look at the backs of frames in any muesum.

It is all about money... If you want a deeper rabbit you need more material depth in the raw wood it is milled from. That would mean that the costs to a mill will increase and we will then be charged more, even when we do not need that added depth.

Might I suggest one or 2 methods to increase that rabbit depth.

Rabbit Space is a plastic extrusion made by Frame Tec. it comes in several sizes.

Another option is to take strips of dimensional lumber and border the rabbit sides to add depth... Bevel the outside edge and cut the width narrower than the moulding to camouflage its appearance along with a dark matt colored paint.
 
No arguments here.

Gosh, Jerry. We both said essentially the same things a few seconds apart.

I like the way you think.:thumbsup:
 
I agree with what you guys are saying, and I do those things when necessary, but the extra labor and materials add up too. In addition, the customer doesn't always like the look that the rabbet extension materials sometimes gives when it hangs on the wall. If alot of depth is added, it can give a shadow affect on the wall. And depending on the necessary materials, the added depth isn't always attractive when looking at it from the side view. It definately would be easier and may end up costing the same to the customer if we had more choices with deeper rabbets. I find that many times it just needs to be 1/8 to 1/4" deeper. But, many of the frames that they are showing in the ads are 1/2 or more short.....which is my real issue of this thread.
 
"the added depth isn't always attractive when looking at it from the side view." Excuse me, but when do you see a frame from the "side view"? Unless the piece is hanging in a hallway and you come through a door, will you see the side of a frame. The moulding designers know this. And the wider the frame the more "shadow" cast by the frame will give the illusion that the frame is deeper when looking at the art from a front on view. Some customers can live with this design and some can't. Those that can't know they will be paying more $$$$$ for their frames.
 
Jim,

Consider the other side of this situation, that of the manufacturer.

If there was a need... with sufficient demand, it might be available... The actual need for deep rabbits in our industry is rather minimal.

On the other hand, salesmanship can go a long way in making a sale with the depth deficiencies. Let a customer know that all is not lost visually by a gap between the face of the frame and the wall. Let them refresh their own memories of going to a museum and seeing the huge gaps between the walls and frames as displayed.

Sometimes customers are just not realistic to all engineering issues of a picture frame. You try your best to inform them, and then, get on with your life.
 
I will mention the difference as a selling point.

If one frame is deep enough and the other is not, I will point out the difference and tell the customer "this one will give you a nice shadowline providing a visual break from the wall where as the other one is deeper and will encompass the art depth" I go on to say "It doesn't matter either way, they both will make the piece look beautiful". I have said it so many times it is second nature. The response is ALWAYS the same, they don't care, they just want whichever looks nicer.

We may see it as more of a negative because we are the ones that have to build it.

Bob
 
Not a big deal

I'd say that about 90% of the customers I've dealt with on this issue don't care if it sticks out the back a half inch or so, as long as it's nicely finished.

If it's more than 1/2", I try to talk them into paying for an "extender" frame on the back.
 
JbNormandog said:
"this one will give you a nice shadowline providing a visual break from the wall where as the other one is deeper and will encompass the art depth"
Click to expand...

Very good way to state it. The first part takes what might be seen as a negative and turns it into a potential positive. As you do, I always point out any significant protrusion because people are accustomed to seeing their frames sitting relatively flat to the wall. If it's an issue, I ask if the frame will be viewed from the side very often. If so, that might sway a choice between mouldings. As was pointed out, in a museum it's pretty much a non-issue, but this gets to people's expectations in a home setting.
:kaffeetrinker_2: Rick
 
"Back Frame"

At least that is what Larson Juhl calls it in an old LJ booklet on framing oil paintings that I have in my library. In the example shown, they even specify a profile number, which appears to be a sort of shadow box profile.

IIRC, the "front frame" and the "back frame" were assembled back to back, using long slender screws in pre-drilled holes straight through the face of the back frame. The opening in the back frame could be "glazed" with a rigid backer board of some sort, with a dust cover over that if desired.

This would not require paint, the "guts" would all be hidden, and it should go together with ordinary frame shop tools. Pricing would be simple, as well. Standard rates for two frames, plus an additional "assembly" charge to put the halves together.
 
The pricing in our POS program includes an option for "backbox", which we use when a backbox or stacked mouldings are required. That's just the labor part. We also charge for the materials, of course. Most customers are willking to pay the price difference when they understand the value of those provisions.

Jim, if all framers knew enough and cared enough to use a solid backer and not-too-tight fitting on canvas framing, the moulding makers would get a lot more calls for canvas-depth rabbets. As it is, I believe the majority of framers and artists still fiit canvases improperly (usually too tightly) and leave the backs open, rather than attempt to raise the price and do it right.

That increases risk of losing the order, which makes some framers very nervous.
 
Chile, Do you have the LJ profile number, for the back frame that you are referring to?

Thanks?
 
Liners too! Aren't liners meant specifically for canvas? Yet the rabbet on a liner is rarely more than a quarter inch deep.
 
<"Excuse me, but when do you see a frame from the "side view"?">

Mic, With todays large rooms and open floor plans, frames are viewed from the side all the time. And, even when money is not the issue, still the selection is slim.

Again, my issue is not whether or not the shaddow is acceptable to some customers and not to others. My beef is that vendors are advertising canvases in frames that are not deep enough to be able to be finished off according to standards. And we all know that they are not using back frames, rabbet extenders, etc.
 
What Standards

TGFU Jim, What are the standards? I would imagine one of the standards would be using a solid backing to protect the canvas and probably something about sealing the rabet. Is there a maximum distance something can protrude from the back?

Not being a CPF, I can claim ignorance.
 
Doug, Yes, I am referring to the PPFA standards: having a solid back board, spacing between the frame lip and the artwork, and secure hardware, such as Wall Buddies or D rings (no wire), which should be secured to the frame, not the stretcher bars.
 
Doug, OOPS, I didn't answer the rest of your question. I don't know of a standard that covers the maximum distance for protruding out the back of a frame. Anyone else know of one?
 
TGFU said:
Chile, Do you have the LJ profile number, for the back frame that you are referring to?

Thanks?
Click to expand...

The recipe given used #650CS Vienna as the front moulding and #102CS Marquis as the back moulding. The publication is about 15 years old, however, so I have no idea if those numbers are still meaningful.

Refreshing my memory from the actual diagram, it doesn't look like any special moulding, it looks like they just picked a profile that suited the front moulding and was as deep as they needed and then put them together back to back.
 
And if all frames had a 1 1/2" - 2" rabbit, I'd complain about all the deep frames. It's quite rare that a canvas fits in a rabbit but it does have a nice finished look.

Gosh, framing a gallery wrapped frame would be a nightmarish undertaking!

While I fully understand the benifit of a backing on a canvas, why can't it extend past the back of the frame?

Is anybody really building wood extenders on the back of frames for canvases? I don't believe I have ever seen such a thing. I'm glad it was mentioned here so that when I do see one, I don't take pictures of it and poke fun at it on the grumble. I had no idea...

Of coarse I'm just bairly a framer and don't really care.

Carry on.
 
JFeig said:
Jim,

Consider the other side of this situation, that of the manufacturer.

If there was a need... with sufficient demand, it might be available... The actual need for deep rabbits in our industry is rather minimal.

On the other hand, salesmanship can go a long way in making a sale with the depth deficiencies. Let a customer know that all is not lost visually by a gap between the face of the frame and the wall. Let them refresh their own memories of going to a museum and seeing the huge gaps between the walls and frames as displayed.

Sometimes customers are just not realistic to all engineering issues of a picture frame. You try your best to inform them, and then, get on with your life.
Click to expand...
Good observation, Jerome. The cost of the millwork is a big factor for manufacturers. I've asked for deeper rabbets since I've worked for our company, but it seems the designers favor form over function. Many of our profiles are deep scoops, which, while very attractive, preclude framing anything other than paper art with minimal matting/backing options. Many of our pre-framed wall decor pieces which are featured in some of our ads are, in fact, printed on canvas, but they are all dry-mounted, not stretched. Good news is that lately we've added quite a few mouldings with deeper rabbets in our more popular finishes, so they seem to be listening. The downside is that the additional millwork to accomodate deeper rabbets usually adds that much more to their cost.
 
Jim, I'd have to dig out my CCI Notes on framing canvases to be sure, but I believe the only thing mentioned about the depth is that the frame should be deep enough to fully enclose it. I don't think that means necessarily just the moulding itself, it would allow for, in fact almost require, a buildout on the back to accomodate the depth of the canvas.

I'll see if I can find them to be sure.

Of course if moulding companies started making all their frames deep enough, then we'd probably have a problem with cutting and joining them (why do they have to make them so darned deep all the time?) and their cost.

Others here have given good advice. Mention it to the customer, and if it's a problem for her then charge for building it out. If they don't want to pay the extra then maybe it didn't really bother her that much after all.
 
TGFU said:
Again, my issue is not whether or not the shaddow is acceptable to some customers and not to others. My beef is that vendors are advertising canvases in frames that are not deep enough to be able to be finished off according to standards. And we all know that they are not using back frames, rabbet extenders, etc.
Click to expand...

LOL! They certainly aren't. They're putting the pictures in the frames with Photoshop.
 
I have this LJ sample hanging in my shop. It has a black back frame. I don't use thier modesl often, but It's a good model to use to show the customer what a back frame looks like.

The customers also like the contents of the model. It doesn't sell more Senelar series but it does illustrate something of the frame finishing process, and thus adds value to most of the mouldings in the shop.
 

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PaulSF said:
Liners too! Aren't liners meant specifically for canvas? Yet the rabbet on a liner is rarely more than a quarter inch deep.
Click to expand...

Who cares how deep the liner rabbet is when you have a deeper frame to cover it? If you can find one. Nevertheless, the frame (and back frame) are the issue, not he liner rabbet. Or am I missing what you are saying?

I understand the economics of the issue. Everyone wants deeper frames for canvases and they cost a lot more money. Of course if one wanted to use those same frames for a print on paper, then a deeper frame might seem more bulky. I suppose the ideal would be two versions with different depths for each moulding. In my dreams...
 
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