v-nails or Biscuits (inserts)

[zmpq711]

Hi everyone, this is my first post.

I'm a newbie in the framing industry, V-nails has been what I use so far, until recently, I revisited the biscuits (inserts). For some reason I feel biscuits can last longer than v-nails since it's made of plastic and don't rust, so if the glue is dead, biscuits should better hold the frame together, what do you guys think?

Also, I'd like to know what equipment(s) you guys recommend if I decide to move towards using biscuits.

thanks!

 

[brian..k]

I have never in 17 years seen a Vnail fail from anything but falling off a wall or poor handling of the frame. I wouldn't switch if you paid me to.

 

[brian..k]

Oh and welcome to the Grumble. You might want to tell us a bit about yourself before everyone starts telling you to tell us about yourself.

 

[zmpq711]

Sure thing.

I'm a beginner framer @ A??on Brothers. I also do some side jobs based in my garage. I'm in the sunny southern California.

The reason I asked the question is that one customer walked in with a broken framed art. One side of the frame is snapped in half, but all four corners are still in place. I took a look at it and it's joind by plastic biscuits. It's not the usual L shape bisbuits, but rather the "8" shape (if look from the top). I'm new to this technique, but it does impress the heck out of me.

 

[Jim Miller]

That seems to be a description for what we call "Thumbnail" or "CornerLock" fasteners. In my mind, "biscuits" are discs of wood, not molded plastic, but both technologies require the use of a router and then bench assembly.

My CornerLock router performs as promised. However, I still prefer to use my underpinner because:

1. The steel fasteners are much stronger than the plastic fasteners, which can break under stress. I've never heard of V-nails rusting; I think that oxidation process would be difficult when the steel is encased in the wood.

2. Underpinning is a faster, cleaner, quieter, and more secure way to join the corners.

 

[Pat Murphey]

Those are not "biscuits", they are thumbnails or wedges. Biscuits are ovals of wood placed in slots, usually parallel to the bottom of the frame, and not, therefore visible in an unbroken joint (and rarely used by framers). Biscuits are made from a wood that expands when wet with glue making for a very strong joint. Thumbnails are popular for ease of use, but are not necessarily stronger than vnails or biscuits. In fact they are mostly useful in holding the joint tightly together while the glue dries. The plastic is not stronger than the wood and there is a view that in some applications that the routed out slots weaken the overall joint.

edit: You were faster, Jim.

 

[zmpq711]

Thank you Jim, Thank you Pat, for the fast response. That answers my question.

I'm guessing these thumbnails are applied when the frames are offered as "custom made/cut, but unassembled", which allows consumers to assemble their own frames at home, without additional tools (just need glue). I guess I'll stick with my underpinner and v-nails.

Thanks again!

Justin

 

[Jim Miller]

....I'm guessing these thumbnails are applied when the frames are offered as "custom made/cut, but unassembled", which allows consumers to assemble their own frames at home...

Yes, that's right. But in addition to consumers, a lot of small frame shops, home-based framers, photographers, artists, and hobbyists may do professional framing, but do not (yet) have joining equipment.

Several prominent suppliers offer chops routed for the inserts, which enables literally anyone to build a decent frame on the bench, without special tools. There's a small charge for routing and inserts, but it's nothing compared to the cost of joining equipment. However, there are other good reasons for a framer to have professional-quality joining equipment -- for example, versatility, ability to control joining quality, timing of production, and long-term profitability.

 

[Dave]

I'll sometimes get mouldings from Roma with the inserts when the moulding is too wide for my equipment. They join reasonably well with a strap clamp.

 

[DawnStendin]

FWIW I was a strong believer in wedges...until I came across a frame where the plastic wedges had actually dried up and rotted away. My new vnailer should be here anyday!

 

[Pat Murphey]

If you like wedges, get a Hoffman Dovetail Joiner. The amortized investment is worth it.

 

[Gurduloo]

I'll second what Dawn says. Though I haven't witnessed it with thumbnails, I have seen many plastic items deteriote over time and become very brittle. I would say a thumbnail would fail due to this much quicker than a rusting vnail. Of course, it's the glue that does the real work, so this is almost a moot point.

 

[Jim Miller]

... I have seen many plastic items deteriote over time and become very brittle. I would say a thumbnail would fail due to this much quicker than a rusting vnail. Of course, it's the glue that does the real work, so this is almost a moot point.

I have never seen a rusted V-nail come out of wood, but I have seen plenty of broken plastic inserts. When they come in for repair the glass is usually broken, and the frame corners have disintegrated.

Yes, glue "does the real work", but sometimes impact can break loose a glue joint. Under stress sufficient to break the glue bond, the plastic inserts sometimes fail, as well. A steel V-nail, on the other hand, usually will stay put and prevent catastrophic failure.

Plastic inserts are useful for many applications, but they are not equal to properly installed v-nails. Over time and a few hundred frames joined, they aren't cheaper, either.