UV filtering acrylic and glass

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Greg Fremstad

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Sep 4, 2002
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1,103
Loc
Eugene OR
I get amazed when I hear framers and artists brag that they're using UV flltering glazing thinking that it will stop fading.

Yes, it will stop fading from - UV !

It will NOT stop fading from the rest of the light spectrum!

Do a test for yourself (and your customers) by cutting say 2" wide strips of regular glass, UV glass, UV acrylic, and one strip of 8 ply mat board. Lay these on top of a regular color photo (they fade quickly) and put them in a bright sunny window for a few weeks. Make up 2 test boards - put the 2nd one under flourescent lights.

You will be shocked to see that the photo has faded about the same for each strip except under the mat board control strip.

Notice that the MOST of the advertising for these products are very specific stating that they will prrevent fading from the harmful UV light. No mention of the rest of the light spectrum. I see a lot of claims on framers web pages that actually state that it will prevent fading.

Shame!

There! It's off my chest now.
 
Go your own way! Don't sell it. This has been debated enough around here - do a search. I sell it and make more money!
:kaffeetrinker_2:
 
That's because it was put in direct sunlight. We ran into that issue before, about six or seven years ago, when a UV-glass display was placed in a south-east window and faded in less than two weeks.

You're creating an experiment in which you're utilising the one thing they tell you not to do. It's kind of like sticking a fork in the light socket even after the instructions for use tell you not to do it.

The UV-filtering glass and acrylic is meant to be displayed out of direct sunlight. The documentation with Tru-Vue even reads to keep pictures away from direct sunlight.

But to each his own. I'm happy with the product, as are our customers.
 
I think Greg's point is that it doesn't STOP fading, it only slows it down.

There are still framers telling lies to their customers and telling them it stops fading.

I wish I could find the research that I saw a while ago that indicated the IR spectrum, because it causes slow heating and a chemical reaction in some inks, may be a greater cause of fading than UV!

The UV filtered glass helps. How much it helps depends on the conditions the art is hung in and the make-up of the art itself.

It is the "best we can do." It may not even be stopping the worst potential damage.

I sell it. You should to. Don't lie to your customers.
 
Read S L O W L Y and C A R E F U L L Y

Amy and Pat,

Indeed, Cliff is correct - Greg is not posting to debate the merits of the product, but rather create a discussion about the claims made by framers in the use of UV filtering products. ;)

Greg is perhaps one of the sharpest tacks in the box.

John
 
Greg is absolutely right, of course.

The effectiveness of UV filtering is not mysterious or questionable. It does exactly what it is supposed to do, but like everything else, it has limitations and it can be misrepresented by those who fail to understand these simple facts, which are presented clearly and often:

1. UV filtering blocks 99% if radiation in the range of 300 to 380 namometers, the most damaging frquency range.

2. The visible range of light is 400 to 70 nanometers, and it is unaffected by UV filtering. That's the RedOrangeYellowGreenBlueIndigoViolet range, and it can be damaging, too.

3. Light damage is determined by the time of exposure and the intensity of the light.

4. Light damage is permanent and irreversible.
 
Jim Miller said:
... UV filtering blocks 99% if radiation in the range of 300 to 380 namometers, the most damaging frquency range. ...
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The term "most damaging" may or may not be correct.

This is a theory based on the assumption that since it is the highest frequency and thus "faster" with "more energy" that it must be the most damaging.

There is also a theory that IR does as much, if not more, to some inks and colors.

There is no question that UV light does damage and it's better to block it than not, but we have to be careful not to overstate the case.

I would also note that newer UV filtering glass blocks less than 99% and may be more desireable for some picture framing. There is definitely some visible colors blocked by 99% UV blockage. This may not always be desirable.
 
I remember when UV glass was first becoming readily available and the SUPPLIERS were making claims that it prevents fading.

So I did what Greg is suggesting and did my own tests. I found, as suggested, that only the matboard actually prevented fading.

So I started using matboard as glazing.

BTW, those suppliers eventually dialed back the claims, though probably not because of my tests.
 
John Ranes II said:
Amy and Pat,

Indeed, Cliff is correct - Greg is not posting to debate the merits of the product, but rather create a discussion about the claims made by framers in the use of UV filtering products. ;)

Greg is perhaps one of the sharpest tacks in the box.

John
Click to expand...

Just pointing to the LONG history of discussion of this topic - none of which leads me to the conclusion that I am cheating customers by selling it. Geez! Any framer that claims that it STOPS fading is probably not reading The Grumble (or wont cease the practice, anyway). :p
 
Honestly, I think we can't post enough threads about this topic! Clearly, there are still many framers who are mis-informed. Many Grumblers get it, but maybe a few lurkers who check in once in a great while will read this and understand.

I have seen, on many websites, the same thing as Greg. It's a lack of knowledge.
 
Most customers don't want to hear all the technical terminology...

I sell cc/mg and always tell them it will not prevent their art from fading completely. I don't have control over every aspect of the art. But this is the best glass there is and will do the best job it can.

Anyone else have some simple sentences for customers and willing to share it on here???? We like to educate our customers, but we don't want to overwhelm them with too technical data.

Please share your 'speeches'
 
Anyone who is dumb enough to claim that UV filtering glass stops or prevents fading is just setting themselves up for complaints or lawsuits from customers when the fading does occur. Why not just be realistic and tell the customer that this technology is the best we have for helping to keep art looking its best for as long as possible, while still advising hanging in areas that are not subject to prolonged or direct exposure to high levels of light of any kind.
:kaffeetrinker_2: Rick
 
I always discuss the three main attributes to look for in picture frame glazing:

1.) UV protectiveness.
2.) Visible light transmission
3.) Reflective qualities (Anti-reflective qualities)

I pull out the TruVue display... still prefer the tassel ones... and talk about how my "everyday glass" is Conservation Clear which offers good protection from UV light fading, has good light transmission but does have reflections. Of course I point out that all light causes fading and that nothing will protect artwork from exposure to full direct sunlight... yadda yadda yadda...

Then I discuss MG saying that it has the same UV protection as CC but offers superior visible light transmission and is anti reflective. I hold up the display, tap the glass and tell the client that I often call it "No Glass".

When I do explain in this manner I'd guesstimate that pieces that are relatively small size... say 16X20 and smaller, the client opts for MG 60-70% of the time. Larger sizes the cost differential does present problems, but normally I close on MG about 30% of the time.

The fourth factor to consider in glazing is breakability. I usually only suggest acrylic glazing for large sizes and/or artwork that has to be shipped or handled often or is located in public areas or family game rooms that may have a pool table or such.
 
UVF glass slows fading.

If the discussion continues, then we get into:

All light causes permanent fading
If you don't want this to fade at all, store it in a light-free box (which we sell, too)
Display in a place where it isn't subject to direct sunlight, or even in a light-filled room
Some things aren't meant to be framed. (hard for me to say.... choke choke)
We can have a high resolution copy made if it is a document of historical or sentimental importance. (Show example)
Continue until their eyes glaze over (UVF glaze, of course)

Simple.
 
I usually use the "sunscreen analogy."

It protects your skin, but you can still get burned.
 
Jim Miller said:
Sorry about the typos in my earlier post. The only one that matters is corrected here...
Click to expand...


Dang, Jim. I should have known it was a test to see who caught the mistake.

I failed.

:cry:

I do appreciate that you always state the science behind your answers.

Thank you.
 
Cliff Wilson said:
The term "most damaging" may or may not be correct....There is also a theory that IR does as much, if not more, to some inks and colors.
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Cliff, you make an arguable point about the potential harm of infrared radiation (from 700 to 1500 nanometers), especially for "some" media. Ordinary glass or acrylic effectively reduces the potential IR radiation damage, so the worst potential IR damage would affect art that is framed without glazing. Yes, if a giclee is to be framed without glazing, IR damage might be a bigger concern than UV damage.

In any case, the operative point is that all light exposure can be damaging to art media, including inks, one way or another.

I believe UV radiation deserves its "most damaging" description because it affects nearly all media, and it amplifies the harm from all frequencies of radiation, including visible and infrared.

I'll never understand why a framer would not recommend UV filtering glazing. It provides important benefit and, IMHO, the cost/benefit ratio favors using it without hesitation.
 
Dave said:
I do appreciate that you always state the science behind your answers.
Click to expand...

Well, thanks Dave.

But if you think I'm stating science, it may be important for you to know that I'm no scientist. I'm just a framer. But I try to find the people who know what they're talking about, ask a lot of questions to assure clear understanding, and then parrot what I hear from them.:icon9:
 
Conservation Clear is our default glass for good reason. We know it HELPS to slow fading of artwork. But I have been so concerned about just this topic that I have talked to all my designers about false claims. I am also adding short educational spots to my e-newsletter and I have already done one on "Dark Fading." We will not be seen as pushy sellers of useless products if we just tell the truth about the actual benefits of what we sell, including UV protective glazing.

In our home we use UV glass; we keep art and treasured photos out of the sun's path, and we keep our fingers crossed. I have one piece of art that is out of print, and I keep the shades drawn all day next to this bedroom piece because I know the inks are fairly fugitive, but even so I know I am taking a risk in displaying it.
 
Anyone read this month's PROFILE Magazine? Great article in there about fading.
 
mad-scientist-lightning.jpg

JIM MILLER
 
Jim Miller said:
I'll never understand why a framer would not recommend UV filtering glazing. It provides important benefit and, IMHO, the cost/benefit ratio favors using it without hesitation.
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Dear Jim, nothing wrong with recommending UV filtering in general. But one reason not to recommend a 99% block is the fact that it tends to have higher absorption of the visible light, distorting the colors, especially noticeable in the White. If you place a piece of MG on a white paper, you will easily see why people would opt not to place it in front of art that they want to appreciate for its original colors.

Regarding the NIR (near infra-red, 700-2500nm, or "non visible heat") discussion. Heat is indeed one of the damaging factors to an artwork. From the sun we get about 50% of the heat from the Visible/UV spectrum, and the other 50% from the NIR (near-infra-red). The visible we need in order to see the artwork, the latter we could do without. Inside the room, the equation depends largely on the type of glazing one has on the windows as well as the heat (energy) sources inside the room. Most windows feature a multitude of coatings that provide very strong filters for solar energy (UV, Visible and NIR) as well as IR long wave radiation. Also, inside the room, the heat travels as radiant heat in form of long red waves (only low-emissivity coatings help to block it, not appropriate at all for art glazing), or in form of conductive heat (in this case, having a small air gap between the glass and the picture helps somewhat). The best option is to turn your thermostat down...

Relevant to this discussion, however, I should note that many multi-layer Anti-Reflective coatings have an added benefit of blocking a portion of the infra-red spectrum. It's the "freebie" effect not often mentioned - when you increase the light transmission in one spectrum (visible light), the transmission is reduced around the "wings" - the UV and the NIR spectra. Just as in life - you win some, you lose some - you get more UV blocking, you lose some of the visible light transmission...

BF
 
Kirstie said:
In our home we use UV glass; we keep art and treasured photos out of the sun's path, and we keep our fingers crossed. I have one piece of art that is out of print, and I keep the shades drawn all day next to this bedroom piece because I know the inks are fairly fugitive, but even so I know I am taking a risk in displaying it.
Click to expand...

I am not above telling customers that in the Gardner Museum in Boston, some of their more precious documents on display have velvet curtains, which the viewer removes, looks at the item and then replaces. Worth thinking about....
 
Another isssue that is ignored is that thanks to the tree huggers in the world, fluorescents lights are being pushed and mandated for peoples homes. Florescents create huge amounts of UV almost as much as direct sun light. But UV light manufactors and tree huggers refuse to talk about this.

However hologen, which have very little UV, and LED lights which none, makers of these products do talk about the amount of UV.

It amazes me that people are more concerned about fading of a 100$ print than the 2K$ couch.

In Nebraska, for the past many years, it was required by building code that all new construction homes and replacment windows now as to be Low E UV filtering glass.

Don;t know how much it filters and or what band waves. But if you don;t use fluorescent light bulbs and have the Low E glass windoes. Or even the Film that you can put over windows. Why spend the money on UV glass?

Just sayin
 
I completely agree. UV filtering may have some value in relatively tame, museum-like lighting conditions. But it's no match for most offices, reception rooms, and brightly lighted homes.
 
Pat Murphey said:
Really nice!! On a framer's forum open to the public. :nuts:
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Well if your concerned about that, isn't most that is posted on here in the same catagory? Talk about pricing, suppliers issues how to charge for things etc, and some REAL amateuris questions are asked by "people in the trade" are more damaging to a proffesional framer that asking a "of why use UV glass. Or I had a real jerk of a customer the other day what should I do?? Or how to wipe my *****. How proffesional is that to people that are viewing a "open forum."

Under the criteria that certian things should be said on here since its a public forum what should be said?


And can't you reply to my question? With a logical argument of why?

Isn;t the question that the public would want to know?
 
Well we just got so darned paranoid about glass and the risk to our client's artwork that we quit offering framing ... we've cut over 100% to selling lightfast archival boxes ... they look quite 'interesting' hanging on the wall, in a boxy kind of way ... and our client's say they appreciate the surprise element ... hey honey, what's behind box #3?

We have a jersey special ... it comes with lids on both sides so you don't have to choose which side to display.

We're also experimenting with envelopes to give the poster special crowd a lower price point.

06_502_01_M.jpg
envelope.jpg
 
wcox said:
...can't you reply to my question? With a logical argument of why?
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Because, all other factors being the same, it helps to keep the things we frame looking as good as they can for as long as possible.
Besides, many people are interested in purchasing options that they perceive to be better in some way over other options. Why sell leather seats in cars, when fabric seats function just as well in most ways?
:bdh: Rick

Please, all you folks who don't want to sell UV filtering glazing, and want to offer NO options to your customers... knock yourself out. The rest of us will make our own business decisions.
 
EllenAtHowards said:
I am not above telling customers that in the Gardner Museum in Boston, some of their more precious documents on display have velvet curtains, which the viewer removes, looks at the item and then replaces. Worth thinking about....
Click to expand...

And they have other pieces open to the elements in those areas where there are no windows! I love this museum, but I always wonder who directs preservation. There is some really awful framing there--wood fillets touching art, and so on.
 
Light

The knowledge that light changes works is not a modern insight. Frames with curtains secured to their upper edges or with sliding wooden doors were used to protect paintings from light in previous centuries.



Hugh
 
wcox said:
And can't you reply to my question? With a logical argument of why?

Isn;t the question that the public would want to know?
Click to expand...

Ok.

So you've replaced all of the bulbs in the house with LED's? Check.
You've also got the low E glass that blocks UV, right? Check.

Ok, so now what are you going to do to protect that piece from the UV that is emitted from the TV? What about the UV from the computer monitor? If you have a fireplace in the house and burn artificial logs there is a chance of chemical combustion at a temperature that could produce UV if it burns hot enough. Oh, and that doesn't even consider the fact that if they have a nice quartz statue, the quartz produces UV as well.

While I don't believe it, there are some scientists out there that still believe that UV is produced in small quantities by humans as well. I think it's been disproven, but there are a bunch of chemical breakdowns occuring all around that art. Get some good glass on it!
 
preservator said:
The knowledge that light changes works is not a modern insight. Frames with curtains secured to their upper edges or with sliding wooden doors were used to protect paintings from light in previous centuries.

Hugh
Click to expand...

LOL - now there is an idea for a new product.
 
Actually, why don't we just start selling night vision goggles, so the customers can display all their artwork in the dark for maximum protection.
:popc: Rick
 
preservator said:
The knowledge that light changes works is not a modern insight. Frames with curtains secured to their upper edges or with sliding wooden doors were used to protect paintings from light in previous centuries.



Hugh
Click to expand...

Did you see this thread

http://www.thegrumble.com/showthread.php?55998-Two-Frame-(three-)-double-sided&daysprune=30

Essentially, A door on the front of a framed documetn to protect it from the light. And this is in a controled lighting situation where the light is on motion detectors and there are no windows.
 
CAframer said:
Well we just got so darned paranoid about glass and the risk to our client's artwork that we quit offering framing ... we've cut over 100% to selling lightfast archival boxes ... they look quite 'interesting' hanging on the wall, in a boxy kind of way ... and our client's say they appreciate the surprise element ... hey honey, what's behind box #3?

We have a jersey special ... it comes with lids on both sides so you don't have to choose which side to display.

We're also experimenting with envelopes to give the poster special crowd a lower price point.
Click to expand...

Best post on here by far!!! Made me laugh, and put me in a good mood.
 
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