universal double miter saw tearout

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dmason

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I have a dy101 universal double miter saw that i bought used. Just put 2 new ultra mitre 14" blades on it. I still have tear out on the outside edge. This saw is really nice and i cant believe it was designed to tear this way. It is worse on the waste side but not great overall. Anybody else experience this? I am trying to get universal/arquati to help but no returned calls yet....This saw does move horizontally as opposed to moving from top down or bottom up. It is the last edge that is ragged...both sides. grrr....
 
Welcome dmason!!!

Is there a piece that is behind the moulding that the blades continue to cut into or just air behind the moulding?

Without something behind the cut, you can see some tear out even with sharp blades. One other slight possibility, did you put the blades on backwards?
 
FrameMakers said:
Welcome dmason!!!

Is there a piece that is behind the moulding that the blades continue to cut into or just air behind the moulding?

Without something behind the cut, you can see some tear out even with sharp blades. One other slight possibility, did you put the blades on backwards?
Click to expand...

Thanks for the quick replies. Yes the blades are on correctly...I am a hobbyist woodworker so I have some knowledge of wood cutting. In the woodworking arena we would use a zero clearance fence or backplate. So I tried attaching a piece of 1/4 inch masonite to the piece behind the moulding that supports it. This piece is a chunk of 1"x 5" aluminum and I think it is the problem. Somehow in its life a thicker or out of balance blade must have been used because the grooves are wider than the current blades. With my zero clearance plate in place it behaves itself. This adds other challenges in measuring for example. I just can't believe this expensive of a saw requires this. Wait a minute....why don't I replace the block with a nice piece of oak or smooth maple and see what happens? I asked universal about a month ago (last time they returned my call) about replacing it and they said they never have done that. Didn't think about just making one myself out of wood!
 
Some pics of your saw, blades and cuts on the moulding would really help.
 
I use my "FRAMESQUARE" 25% of the time instead of my Ledsome Double Miter Saw if i run into a problem like yours... good luck. ☺
 
photo 1.JPGphoto 2.JPG

Here's a couple of images of my problem. This is poplar that has been painted only. This happens no matter what the wood type is. What you can see is the "waste" side is very rough. The problem is the tear out from the 1st cut is not fully cut out on the 2nd. If we cut long then go back and recut the second miter then it is fine, but what a ridiculous work flow the saw is designed to handle this. My experiment with the new cutting block did not work, same tear out. I will send some more pictures.
 
It may be because of my advanced age, but I can't make any sense out of those pictures. Here's the thing: tearout that bad has to be caused by either a very dull blade or, perhaps, excessive runout. Do you have a dial indicator? If you do check the runout as close as possible to the blade's tips. If you don't have a dial indicator, get one. A cheap one with a magnetic base is all you need. Runout approaching .08" might be problematic. I used to think that runout wouldn't cause tearout because of my experience with wobble dado blades, but they don't exit the material they're cutting. In woodworking, as with most aspects of life, you get nothing for free and extending cutting capacity by using a wider blades is a prIme example. Any small runout at the saw's arbor flange will be magnified by the radius of those 14" blades.

If you get excessive blade runout but little runout at the saw's arbors measure the runout at the flanges. If the flange runout is under .03" them there is something wrong with, if I understand your description, one of the blades.

But, then, feed rate can also cause runout, but you said you adjusted that up and down. Try adjusting the feed rate as slow as possible and see what happens. Did speeding up the feed rate make the tearout worse?

There's clearly something wrong. I've never used Ultramiter blades so I know nothing about their quality. A good test would be to buy a Freud Hy AT blade, I think it's called the "Ultimate Cutoff Blade" and if the tearout still occurs, there is a problem with the saw and you might need new arbor bearings. A dial indicator would indicate that problem too. A sharp Hy AT blade will cut unsupported bly wood veneer with no tearout.
 
Looks like the saw is set up to have zero waste. If you cut the leading edge then slide to the stop it is the trailing edge where the splintering occurs. A 1/4" shift on the next leading edge will then cut the chips away. That shift only takes a second so it should not throw a wrench in the machinery of your cutting process.
 
Does this happen on the 'upcut' of the blades.

If you make the cut and pull the moulding away from the blades (both sides) before they raise does it still happen? If you leave the moulding in place on one side only and have the saw cycle through an entire cut, does it happen to that stick of moulding that is still held in place?
 
Good thinking, Mark; if the tear out occurs on the up stroke, runout is almost certainly the problem. The runout could be caused by warped blade, too much runout at the arbor flange, or, simply, a speck of dust on the surface of a flange or a combination of any of the three. Simply rotating the offending blade on the arbor will eliminate small runout errors combining into a large one. 14" blades seem always to cause ,ore problems than smaller ones.
 
I haven't used your saw but it appears to be a great saw. At $9300 buckarrues for a new one it should be. You profile doesn't say where you are but Universal Arquati, http://www.universalframing.com/scripts/prodView.asp?idproduct=1119&idcategory=1221&sortField=sku, has California and New Jersey locations.

We don't have a manual for this saw on the Manuals Page (see the signature line) and if you have a manual, we could use a copy. PM me if you do.

It sounds like you should contact the Universal for support since no one with this saw has responded to the thread. (Edit. Opps; I see that you have tried to contact them - bug them until they return your calls)

DY101.jpg
 
The blades travel on a horizontal plane so there is no up/down stroke but rather through/back. The saw is basically like the Imnes.
 
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Here's some pictures of my saw with my modified block. I have since gone back to the aluminum one. Thank you for the responses I will do my best to cover them. These are brand new expensive blades. I also have a set of used but just sharpened ones and the result is the same. I have not checked the runout, but both blades do it. The picture of the moulding shows you the good and waste side of each cut. Normally you would not see the waste side of the first cut because it is removed by the right hand blade. What I was showing is that the tear out from left blade is severe enough that the right blade does not remove it all. The tear out from the waste side of the right blade is irrelevant because it is not used but I included it so you can see the dynamic. Here's a new twist. I reinstalled the aluminum block and added a piece of 1/4 masonite as a zero clearance fence. The problem is gone...mostly....it is at least very minimal. Just checked with the operator and he is making frames...a good thing... The slower the better as far as speed is concerned. I will check the runout tonight. The other struggle with this saw is the clamps. So, we also know the material movement is not good and have added some additional clamps on smaller pieces. Keep the ideas coming, i appreciate the help as Universal is unreachable.....
 
Just spoke with Joe from Universal and he understands the problem. He is going to meet with his production guy who actually uses the saws for Universal/Arquati and see what they can determine. Let's keep our fingers crossed. What if blade travel is the issue...should the blade travel further? I am wondering if my masonite fence is just moving the material closer to the arbor thereby increasing travel.
 
dmason,

I would not use aluminum as your spoil block. I would use a piece of hard wood of some kind. If your blades are for wood only, they have teeth that are alternate bevel and have sharp pointy teeth that will dull quickly cutting aluminum.

My guess is the blades dulled quickly sawing through the aluminum spoil block.
 
The oak zero clearance fence is excellent and I wouldn't change it. It needs to be about an inch taller in the middle so that it'd support tall moulding. If I understand correctly, the tear out is at the back of the moulding, not the bottom. I really can't tell from the first pictures. I can't think of anything the saw could do to cause the tear out I see in the first photos. The problem has to be with the blades if, in fact, both are causing tear out; I can't tell if that's the case. And the blades have to be very dull, duller than any blades I've had experience with if they're causing that kind of tear out in the oak moulding at the back. I could understand it if the tear out were at the bottom. But, then, you said the blades were new. Again, you can't improve on that oak fence you made except it needs to be tall,enough in the middle to support tall mouldings and shaped so that the middle can fit under the guard.
 
CB Art & Framing said:
Are you using the right size blades with correct tooth count?
Click to expand...

Yes, in fact I purchased the blades from Universal as they are a dealer for Ultramiter. Here's the latest after a return call from Joe. "I spoke to my production guy and he has the same problem with the saw when cutting wood mouldings. So, he uses a plexiglass fence like the masonite one you are using and this solves it."

Wow, is all I know to say. Lowes has the 12" Dewalt chop saws on sale and man am I tempted to change directions. I know a chop saw with the right blade would never have this problem. I love the safety features inherent in the DY101 design and feel that this is the best solution for a production environment but I am really disappointed in its performance for dollar cost. So far my masonite solution is working, we will just have to replace it on a regular basis. Just doesn't seem right to me......
 
Has your production guy tried pulling the material away from the blade before it cycles upwards?

Those tear out look like the edge of the carbide tooth is ripping the material. The back edge of the tooth isn't designed to contact the material and will cause that kind of tear out. Similar to if you install the blades backwards by mistake.
 
For what Mark is talking about, it wouldn't matter what way the blade is traveling. He is talking about the back of the blade hitting the moulding on its way home. I have had that issue on the rabbet of some mouldings.
 
The photos show the chipping/splintering of the wood grain on the waste side of the cut. This would indicate that those grains of wood are not cut but pushed out. The block behind the moulding should be preventing this unless the back block has been notched due to the zero waste design of the saw. Since I don't know what the inside of the cabinet looks like I'm not sure if this can be improved. Many of the saws we use have room for the block to extend below the table so there is no notch created in the portion that rises above the table.
 
It's either faulty blades or the blades aren't cutting all the way through. I don't think it's runout. Why won't you tell what the run out is at the edge of the blade. When you test, don't turn the blade; use the belt to rotate the blade. Are the torn wood fragments torn from the fall off or the good side. If they're from the fall off its almost certain that the blades aren't cutting all the way through the moulding. But, then, I think you reported that you moved the moulding farther into the cut with a backing board. That should have solved the not cutting all the way through problem.
 
I will take a picture of the block which supports the moulding, ultimately I believe this is the issue and is a design flaw. Picture will help but with zero waste the blades intersect and actually cross each others path. This point is then the widest gap of the support block, essentially 2 blades with. This missing support is where the tear out occurs and explains why it is the waste side. The good side has support but the waste does not. A redesign would allow for 1/4" of waste to occur and not overlap the blade path until they pass through the support. I believe my zero clearance fence is in fact helping this way, I bet if I made it thicker I could mimic this design and eliminate the problem completely...pix to follow.
 
004.jpg005.jpg

OK, so maybe this will help shed some light. I now am of the mind that the masonite moves the material forward resulting in about 1/8" of waste, helping the issue as the material is still unsupported on one side of each blade. This makes their comment of "he uses a piece of plexiglass" begin to make more sense. Probably is using a 3/8 or 1/2 piece to move it even further out. Why didn't they just not try for zero waste? That's quite a gap in the middle unsupported.
 
dmason,

Are your blades ground with a triple chip tooth form, or a 4+1 alternate bevel grind? I can see in your picture of the aluminum, it has a high-low tooth profile cut in it. If your blades are triple chip they are made for aluminum cutting.
The 4+1 alternate bevel tooth form would be the recommended blade for cutting wood.
 
triplechip said:
dmason,

Are your blades ground with a triple chip tooth form, or a 4+1 alternate bevel grind? I can see in your picture of the aluminum, it has a high-low tooth profile cut in it. If your blades are triple chip they are made for aluminum cutting.
The 4+1 alternate bevel tooth form would be the recommended blade for cutting wood.
Click to expand...

blade-profiles.jpg

It is the -6 profile, designed for wood. By the way if you put one of these on backwards you get a lot of smoke!! I had to try even though I knew it was wrong...wow not good!
 
I have seen this before and before anyone flames me, it is the fact that the blades are under the table and this is what causes the timber to rip out the back, the only way to stop it is to change saws it will not matter which blade you use, the same will happen.The blades need to be above the table so that they cut down (or at least straight)onto the moulding. Also an Aluminium blade(negative rake) will also work well for heavily comp- oed(?) ornate mouldings, as the timber only blades(positive rake) are too aggresive for the compo. Hope this is going to help as you probably don't want to buy a new saw:thumbsup: ...
 
Drop Bear said:
I have seen this before and before anyone flames me, it is the fact that the blades are under the table and this is what causes the timber to rip out the back, the only way to stop it is to change saws it will not matter which blade you use, the same will happen.The blades need to be above the table so that they cut down (or at least straight)onto the moulding. Also an Aluminium blade(negative rake) will also work well for heavily comp- oed(?) ornate mouldings, as the timber only blades(positive rake) are too aggresive for the compo. Hope this is going to help as you probably don't want to buy a new saw:thumbsup: ...
Click to expand...

They do cut straight into it, horizontal path. I really believe the issue is their attempt at zero waste. If it simply had 1/4" waste all would be good, it is the lack of support behind the cut. Of course, if the blades came from the top down and there was support underneath, then that would work. Unsupported wood fibers are going to tear....in my opinion.
 
I understand what you are saying, but the blades cannot cut in a downward fashion as they are lower than the timber, picture frame moulding is made to be near perfect so that when it is cut you get a very fine edge, but with this type of saw it is designed for the building trade where this type of accuracy is not needed regardless of which type of blade is used.
 
2013-06-04-1023-33.jpg
Here is a diagram of the 2 different types, hope this makes my babble a little clearer
 
Thanks to [FONT=&amp]JonathanGlassick of Universal Arquati we now have manuals for the DY101 and DY 103 miter saws up on the manuals page. [/FONT]
 
Re: universal double miter I have almost same saw and problem

dmason said:
I have a dy101 universal double miter saw that i bought used. Just put 2 new ultra mitre 14" blades on it. I still have tear out on the outside edge. This saw is really nice and i cant believe it was designed to tear this way. It is worse on the waste side but not great overall. Anybody else experience this? I am trying to get universal/arquati to help but no returned calls yet....This saw does move horizontally as opposed to moving from top down or bottom up. It is the last edge that is ragged...both sides. grrr....
Click to expand...

I have the Universal DY -AW180 just had the bearings changed. I had the same problem. Through talking to Universal several times I have found there are sensors all over. Left side the front sensor is for how far the blade comes forward , .
Even their best tech. says he's never even moved the back two and don't know what they do. There are two on each side .Mine are green in color. and you only move them a tiny bit. when you move your sensor back just a bit your blades will not overlap. I guess if your brave you can try the other ones at least we could find out what they do.
These guys cant get me a schmetic for the saw, But they made em? They told me that a company in Korea made them.
If you want to phone me regarding this you may Ferguson's Frame & Gallery Palm Desert CA 760 340 5474
Good Luck and by the way When these saws are working properly they are great. Don't give up on it yet. I will try to take photo's for you or phone and I can try to walk you through.

Rhonda
 

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