Underpinning Large Moulding

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MerpsMom

MerpsMom

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
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Jul 30, 1997
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Leawood, Kansas USA
How far up into the frame do you go when stacking v-nails into large, deep mouldings? I'm about to order one about 6" wide by 4" tall, coved down to about 1-1/2". In the past, I've only stacked 14 to 15 mm. Any suggestions? I do not want to vise and nail this as it's too pretty!
 
I'm looking forward to some good replies on the V nails in this question. But my backup when joining these big mouldings is to have 4 large woodworking clamps - I use the pipe clamps that can clamp as long as the pipes - ready to pull the frame together while the glue dries. Before I start I get the clamps ready and appropriate pads to protect the moulding shape to be joined. It seems so often that three corners go together fine but one is a bit off. So I put the clamps on and pull everything carefully together and leave it overnight. These clamps have paid for themselves many times.
 
From our experience with a frame this large we would also use clamps as Scarfinger suggests to clamp it after the frame is joined. Remember it is the glue that holds the frame together not the nails. Be sure you use enough glue and it should squeeze out when you clamp it. The nails are simply there to hold the frame until the glue sets. We use "Pony" pipe clamps and clamp them "dry" with the frame before we take it over to the underpinner.

If the frame was as wide as you say and over three feet on any one side we would probably glue it in the clamps and put the v-nails in after the frame has been clamped overnight. Before I could comment on how deep you could "stack" the v-nails I would need to know the hardness of the wood and the brand of underpinner you are using.

If your underpinner is a "single stage" type like a Cassese or a Euro, that clamps and unclamps for each stacked nail, you have a smaller chance of the nails stacking correctly. A two stage type like a AMP Putnam Mitre-Mite would stack better as it does not clamp and unclamp for each nail.

The other unknown is the saw are you using to cut the corners. If you are using a mitre box chop saw you are probably in trouble before you start. The chances of getting square clean corners with a frame this size is remote when using a single blade mitre-style chop saw. The corners should be cut on a 14" double mitre saw or a Framesquare style rolling table saw.

Note that I said "we". Be sure when you are working on a large frame you have someone
standing by to help. You may successfully get all four corners glued and v-nailed only to find when you move the frame off the table that one of the corners opens up. When this happens the only way to save the day is with bar or pipe clamps.

Alan Sturgess
Accent Art Distributors Ltd
"The Retailer's Wholesaler, not the Retailing Wholesaler"
Vancouver, Canada
 
The clamps sound like a good idea: wish I had some. This is a 30 x 30 frame. I could vise it, then v-nail it, but somehow that sounds goofy. You are oh-so-right on that fourth corner. I'll run it through the sander first, but I'll bet I still have trouble.

V-nails, anyone?
 
I find 2 - 15mm V nails stack better than 3 - 10mm V nails - but it depends on the wood and the days luck.

My V nailer is two stage and I have a piece of foamcore handy to jam in the foot pedal so I can leave the clamp of my V nailer tight and just leave the corner in the V nailer until the glue sets. This is for the corner that looks perfect in the V nailer but opens up when you move it - just leave it in the V nailer until the glue sets.

I'll pass on one other V nail trick here. I keep some small wood wedges to use as shims under the frame pieces to force them into alignment under the V nailer clamp. Just slide them under the right or left piece at the front or the back as required to give the piece a little twist as the clamp pressure is applied.

And remember of course that you'll only completely ruin the frame if its all the moulding you have and you promised it for today!

[This message has been edited by Scarfinger (edited October 14, 2000).]

[This message has been edited by Scarfinger (edited October 14, 2000).]
 
We have air (powered) brad nail guns (a long and a short) by the v-nailer.

Does wonders.
 
Have you thought of ordering it joined? Depending on the supplier, it may be worth the extra cost. I add a +50($50 extra, in case I need to order it joined)etc. on back of these big moldings. I call this my no risk pricing factor.
 
You beat me to the post, JPete. Ordering it joined may cost more, but, like a finished corner frame, you don't have the labor of assembly...and the days of wondering how in the world you'll manage to get it done. By the time the frame gets to you, you can have the art matted, mounted, and glazed so you just have to pop it in.
 
Thanx for all the suggestions. I order chop on all my mouldings unless it's a local where freight is no problem. This is an LJ so it could come on the normal truck delivery run with no add-on for freight. Problem is, I've quoted it, so I'll join it myself. I've done it before and it's okay to do, just cumbersome. But a wealth of ideas is ours for the asking on this board, so I'll consider all ideas in the future when quoting those pesky ones.
smile.gif


Oh, and the trick about shimming under the moulding to make it fit better is a good one. I keep old mat blades near the underpinner: they provide just enough most of the time to beat the thing into submission.

[This message has been edited by MerpsMom (edited October 15, 2000).]
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Alan Sturgess:
Remember it is the glue that holds the frame together not the nails. Be sure you use enough glue and it should squeeze out when you clamp it. The nails are simply there to hold the frame until the glue sets. We use "Pony" pipe clamps and clamp them "dry" with the frame before we take it over to the underpinner.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Alan, I do not wish to be picky but surely this is a contradiction. If it is really the glue that holds the frame together and not the nails then why would you bother with the nails at all? Why not glue it, clamp it then let it dry in the clamps and not use nails?

I believe that the vee nails are as important in the frame corner as steel is important in concrete, it reinforces the joint!
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JPete:
Have you thought of ordering it joined? Depending on the supplier, it may be worth the extra cost. I add a +50($50 extra, in case I need to order it joined)etc. on back of these big moldings. I call this my no risk pricing factor.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

I take it from this post that it is common prectise for framers to buy 'chopped and joined in USA.
Down here in the Land of OZ, I would not dare to do such a thing.
Firstly, the chops I order always need trimming to make them joinable so I have no idea what the joints would be like if the supplier joined them.
Secondly the freight companies that deliver them would soon put an end to the fact that they had been joined. Length mouldings that I receive (well packed) are often damaged and have to be replaced, so they would make short work of something as fragile as a joined frame.
If you framers up there don't have these problems I think I will be migrating to join you tomorrow!
 
Any LJ frame I expect to have trouble with I order joined. It's not many, probably averages out to about one a month, and usually involves either very large stacked frames or very small wide mouldings. The extra cost is compensated for by the time we don't have to spend fooling with it. Deep frames like shadow boxes get shot in the side with the brad gun - that's why the frame gods invented nail hole filler, right?
Osgood - c'mon up. I could use the help and you'll LOVE the Minnesota winter. Kit

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Time flies like an arrow; fruit flies like a banana
 
Gotta put my 2 cents in for the Merle corner clamp (or any heavy duty band clamp). I have a pair of them and use on a regular basis with a good quality glue. Osgood's right about not having to use mechanical fastners after gluing and clamping. These clamps are not as expensive as the pony clamps, and probably easier to use.
 
wpfay, did I get this backwards? I thought Osgood was saying that the nails are as important as the glue. I also believe that nails are vital as I've seen frames come in where the glue has parted, but the mitres didn't because of the nails: at least it was somewhat together. We attended a seminar last week where Vivian Kistler stated that we must, MUST use nails as well as glue. Now, not meaning to be a total follower, I have to agree: but am always open to others' reasonings. I just simply do not trust the glue alone, no matter what the gluemaker says, and no matter how tight I clamp it.
 
I had a friend that made custom desks (mega-expensive) and he thought it was sacrlige to use nails or screws. If you were a true craftsman glue and proper joints were all you would need. We, on the other hand are more interested in getting the job done more quickly. Our solution: the vnail doesn't hurt and speeds up the process.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wpfay:
Gotta put my 2 cents in for the Merle corner clamp (or any heavy duty band clamp). I have a pair of them and use on a regular basis with a good quality glue. Osgood's right about not having to use mechanical fastners after gluing and clamping. These clamps are not as expensive as the pony clamps, and probably easier to use. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Perhaps I did not make myself too clear. I think nails MUST be used in all joints for added reinforcement. Glue is great, but nails and glue is better!
 
A former boss of mine (one of many) has invented the Master Clamp (www.masterclamp.com) It's the best clamp I've used, and the big one has a 6-1/2" capacity! http://www.masterclamp.com

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Seth J. Bogdanove, CPF
21 years framing and still loving it

[This message has been edited by Bogframe (edited October 19, 2000).]
 
Seth, which size are you using in the pictures (that is you?)? How does one make the decision about the size needed. And, when you speak of size, do you mean (with the corner lying flat) the horizontal length of one side of the clamp? Sorry to be so stupid, but I don't get how to determine the size of clamp a framer needs for a frame. Is it based on overall UI's or depth of moulding?
confused.gif


[This message has been edited by Mel (edited October 19, 2000).]
 
Osgood, My apologies. I did misunderstand your statement. I come from a cabinet making/ furniture making background so my view of mechanical fasteners is they all act as a clamp of sorts, their main purpose is to hold the joint tight while the glue dries. I use v-nails, regular nails, screws, etc...in the regular course of the joining process. When I am joining an oversized frame using the band clamps, I find it unnecessary to put in any kind of mechanical fastener once the glue has dried.

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<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wpfay:
Osgood, My apologies. I did misunderstand your statement. I come from a cabinet making/ furniture making background so my view of mechanical fasteners is they all act as a clamp of sorts, their main purpose is to hold the joint tight while the glue dries. I use v-nails, regular nails, screws, etc...in the regular course of the joining process. When I am joining an oversized frame using the band clamps, I find it unnecessary to put in any kind of mechanical fastener once the glue has dried.

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Thats a coincidence...I also used to make furniture (among other things). Mostly custom made furniture designed along the lines of antique styles including some woodcarving.

I also use strap type clamps regularly, but would not be able to sleep at night unless I also used some mechanical fasteners as well as the glue. I have had frames in for repair that have had no mechanical fasteners (framed elsewhere) a number of times and these almost always have broken glass and damaged mats. I believe that if the glued joints had had some mechanical fastener, the whole thing would have stayed together when the glue failed and not caused as much damage to the other components.
 
Osgood, You say potato, and I say....potato
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Mel:
Seth, which size are you using in the pictures (that is you?)? How does one make the decision about the size needed. And, when you speak of size, do you mean (with the corner lying flat) the horizontal length of one side of the clamp? Sorry to be so stupid, but I don't get how to determine the size of clamp a framer needs for a frame. Is it based on overall UI's or depth of moulding?
confused.gif


[This message has been edited by Mel (edited October 19, 2000).]<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

The clamp in the picture is the big one that holds a 6-1/2" moulding.
No, it's not me in the picture, I have chest-length hair and a beard.
When in doubt, always go for the biggest size...the clamp will hold anything from 1/4" to 6-1/2 inch.
the 6-1/2" size refers to moulding width. Depth is not a problem, this clamp will even handle shadow box moulding. Length is also not a problem.


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Seth J. Bogdanove, CPF
21 years framing and still loving it
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by wpfay:
Osgood, You say potato, and I say....potato<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

wpfay,
No way, I don't say potato....I say 'spud' ;o))
 
Thank you, Osgood. Had a good laugh.

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