Underpinner (Under $1000)

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dennykyser

dennykyser

True Grumbler
Joined
Jul 14, 2008
Posts
98
Loc
Pennsylvania
I am a photographer who is now doing framing. I love it so far but using a vice, glue and brad nailer is not the most professional way to go. I also am running into some problems with the smaller frames.

I want to use a v nailer and was all set to order the Logan Pro Joiner when I found this forum. (great place by the way)

I already did a search, but not having luck with the price range I am after.

I have air piped into my framing shop for my brad nailer, so can use that if needed.

I live in rural pa so what ever I buy will have to be shipped that is another consideration.

Would love your thoughts and any advice on both a v nailer and supplier to consider.

Denny
 
Denny - If a Pilm Joint Mec 1 would suit your needs, I've got a brand new one I can sell you for $250 + shipping (should only be about $20 since the joiner is unassembled in a slim box)

This joiner lists for about $695, drives 7mm, 10mm, and 15mm vnails, and can join moulding up to 3" high by 3" wide

mec1.gif
 
You get what you pay for, it is much the same as photography. I would love to get a 600mm Nikon lens for what I am willing to spend. I have discovered that you can not purchase a Nikon 600mm lens for five hundred dollars. Now I am looking at one made in Bangladesh, the picture looks just like the Nikon, it must be just as good, don't you think?

Purchase the cheapest equipment you can if you want to start a framing business, I recommend that approach to all my competition.

John
 
JRB said:
You get what you pay for,
Purchase the cheapest equipment you can if you want to start a framing business, I recommend that approach to all my competition.
John
Click to expand...

Now that's funny. :D

Seriously, try to find an old Cassesse 810. I've got a spare one I've had for 20 years, and it still works great.
No, I don't want to sell it. ;)
 
There may not be a new quality underpinner in your price range, however there should be some quality, well cared for used machines in that price range.

Do a search on underpinners to get familiar with brands and their pros and cons. Then check here from time to time on the for sale forum at the bottom of the main page. Also check the trade magazines, ask your supplier for names of shops in your area selling off equipment and finally keep an eye on eBay.

I think you would be wise to bypass the logans and other such hobby level machines unless you are only doing 1 or 2 frames once in a while.
 
When I first started by home based shop I purchased the Pilm Joint Mec 1, I felt it was a great underpinner and worked like a charm. I have since upgraded to a Cassee 810 Jr, but keep it around as a back up if the Jr goes down. I would suggest buying what you can afford, if $1000 is your limit, buy something as close to that as possible. Like all tools you do get what you pay for. Just my 2 cents.
 
JRB said:
You get what you pay for, it is much the same as photography. I would love to get a 600mm Nikon lens for what I am willing to spend. I have discovered that you can not purchase a Nikon 600mm lens for five hundred dollars. Now I am looking at one made in Bangladesh, the picture looks just like the Nikon, it must be just as good, don't you think?

Purchase the cheapest equipment you can if you want to start a framing business, I recommend that approach to all my competition.

John
Click to expand...

Great point, but I did not start off with Canon 1D Mk III with all L glass like I have now. My first customers did not know I did not have a $5000 camera and a $3000 lens like I do now, but I soon worked my way up to it.

The reason I set the price at $1000 for now is my supplier will join them for $4.00 a frame, so before I spend too much on a joiner, and then take the time to join them, I will let them join my frames. If I can get a good joiner that will suit my needs for $1000 or close to it, I will try that route.
 
SteelCity said:
Denny - If a Pilm Joint Mec 1 would suit your needs, I've got a brand new one I can sell you for $250 + shipping (should only be about $20 since the joiner is unassembled in a slim box)

This joiner lists for about $695, drives 7mm, 10mm, and 15mm vnails, and can join moulding up to 3" high by 3" wide

mec1.gif
Click to expand...

I have several photo sessions today, I will try and do some research on this unit this evening.
 
You might also find a good used manual, or maybe even a pneumatic underpinner within your price range. You probably don't need a fancy underpinner, but more sophistication in the machine's design generally means more convenience, ease of use, more durability, less set up time.
 
Keep an eye on the Grumble "for sale forum" many of us have scored a deal there.

framer
 
Thanks guys, its hard to say where my framing is going. Again I am a photographer but there is only one frame shop in the area, and they are good, I refer many people to them, but they are quite expensive and many wont go because of the price. They go to walmart or even worse my portraits end up in a drawer or on a fridge. I started offering frames this year and looks like we will sell around 100-150 this year. So guess I am trying to set up to be able to do 150-300 frames a year. I do enjoy the joining process, but the glue and clamp is too time consuming. I have to weigh out the cost of a good joiner against the $4.00 per frame to have done at the supplier. But also the shipping is more when they are joined at the supplier.

So all your expertise is very useful.
 
dennykyser said:
...Again I am a photographer but there is only one frame shop in the area, and they are good, I refer many people to them, but they are quite expensive and many wont go because of the price....
Click to expand...

This is common reasoning among artists, photographers, and others who produce things to be framed. If you agree with your customers that framing is expensive, you will probably follow a learning curve familiar to many of us.

I started framing as a calligrapher almost 20 years ago. Like you, I had established business relationships with local framers. Also like you (and most consumers), I thought they were outrageously expensive.

Most of the framers who did my framing back in the 80s are long gone.
 
I just started my framing business about a year ago and bought a ITW Amp VN Manual. It's a manual machine that I'm very impressed with. I bought mine new, but I see that framingsupplies.com has a used one, with extension wings, for sale at a very attractive price.
 
Jim Miller said:
This is common reasoning among artists, photographers, and others who produce things to be framed. If you agree with your customers that framing is expensive, you will probably follow a learning curve familiar to many of us.

I started framing as a calligrapher almost 20 years ago. Like you, I had established business relationships with local framers. Also like you (and most consumers), I thought they were outrageously expensive.

Most of the framers who did my framing back in the 80s are long gone.
Click to expand...

Thanks, I know a profit needs to be made, and I also know many things go into pricing like insurance, overhead not just COGS,

I do however feel there is a market for more than just High End frames. I will never be able to compete with walmart, or the department stroes, nor do I want to. I just want to make sure my work is displayed and not with a magnet on the fridge.

I used to do a lot of wood working, and loved it before I went full time in photography, so the framing and mounting is enjoyable to me, but like you said a big learning curve. I do not offer it for anything besides my work, and don't push it, only show them them a finished product, front and back so they know what they can get from us.

This forum is great, thanks for the help and I will learn a lot from you guys.

Denny
 
mayos said:
I just started my framing business about a year ago and bought a ITW Amp VN Manual. It's a manual machine that I'm very impressed with. I bought mine new, but I see that framingsupplies.com has a used one, with extension wings, for sale at a very attractive price.
Click to expand...

Looks like that one was sold, but this is a new one and very close to my price range.

Is this a good piece of equipment?
http://framingsupplies.com/itwamp/VnManual.htm
 
How about this one?

Denny,
Here is another to consider:
http://www.framingsupplies-shop.com/index.php?target=products&product_id=1989

I think it is the same company selling it (framing supplies). As I stated earlier, this one has two clamps to hold the moulding in place before the nail is inserted - a vertical and a horizontal clamp.

I have found by reading on the Grumble that opinions about manual (or any) underpinners are diverse. If the ITW/AMP is in your price range then so is the Fletcher-Terry (Pilm) machine shown on the link above.

Again, I have not used either manual machine. My new Pilm is supposed to be delivered today. Can't wait to try it out. I have used a Pilm compressed air (pneumatic) underpinner before and I liked it.

If you can wait and can attend the show in Atlanta (Sept), I would suggest trying them out there and then making your decision. I have read that you might get a special price at the show as well (maybe a demo machine?). Good Luck.
 
surferbill said:
Now that's funny. :D

Seriously, try to find an old Cassesse 810. I've got a spare one I've had for 20 years, and it still works great.
No, I don't want to sell it. ;)
Click to expand...

Yes...but did you know that if the pneumatic drive shaft assembly for an 810 goes out...it will cot a mere $750 for a new one? Found this out the hard way. Buy right the first time. Check what parts cost before buying an older machine.
Lesson learned the hard way!
 
Art Newvo said:
Denny,
Here is another to consider:
http://www.framingsupplies-shop.com/index.php?target=products&product_id=1989

I think it is the same company selling it (framing supplies). As I stated earlier, this one has two clamps to hold the moulding in place before the nail is inserted - a vertical and a horizontal clamp.

I have found by reading on the Grumble that opinions about manual (or any) underpinners are diverse. If the ITW/AMP is in your price range then so is the Fletcher-Terry (Pilm) machine shown on the link above.


Again, I have not used either manual machine. My new Pilm is supposed to be delivered today. Can't wait to try it out. I have used a Pilm compressed air (pneumatic) underpinner before and I liked it.

If you can wait and can attend the show in Atlanta (Sept), I would suggest trying them out there and then making your decision. I have read that you might get a special price at the show as well (maybe a demo machine?). Good Luck.
Click to expand...

Please let me know how you like it, how long did it take you to get it?
 
Pilm underpinner

I got the underpinner yesterday and had only one frame to assemble. (I am setting up a small shop and my equip is not all here plus I am building a worktable to put my saw on etc, etc) The underpinner is solid, seems to be excellent quality and workmanship. The nails went in much easier than I expected - not much pressure required on the foot lever :) - the moulding was softwood and the nails 1/4"

I was very pleased with the finished frame. Now some (minor) negatives. These are not a real issue for me since I am a very low volume frame maker and the extra steps don't bother me but just so you know: 1) The nailer (hammer) is fixed so the frame has to slide over the nailer to put nails in different spots along the miter. On wider moulding (maybe 2 1/2" or more) you will probably have to reposition the vertical clamp so it is closer to being over the nail insertion point. 2) Once you set the far and near nail stops, you have to loosen a knob, slide the frame, then tighten the knob again before inserting the nail. On more expensive pneumatic models, the hammer moves, - so once the frame is clamped down, you slide the hammer to the correct position and fire a nail - quicker and easier but again for my low volume needs ..... an expensive bell and whistle.

Here is a link to the owner's manual that may be helpful:
http://www.fletcher-terry.com/document_pdfs/5500_Cornerpro_Manual_English.pdf

As far as shipping: I am living in Germany and I ordered mine from Pilm in Italy thru their distributor in Germany so can't comment on that. I would assume in the US that you would get it in under a week if they have it in stock. It is heavy - right around 100 pounds.

Bottom line - I like it a lot but still have not had enough experience with it. I am similar to you in the fact that I am only framing my own stuff - not looking to frame things for others.

Prost :beer: from Germany
 
dennykyser said:
my supplier will join them for $4.00 a frame........
Click to expand...


At $4 a frame, I would skip the underpinner and put your time and talents in your photography business (nice web site BTW).

Have you considered going to the local expensive framer and working out a deal for senior/family portraits? If you were in my town, I would supply you with corner samples that I buy box quantities of, a good price and we could both make a profit. Might be worth while. Just a thought.
 
Art Newvo said:
I got the underpinner yesterday and had only one frame to assemble. (I am setting up a small shop and my equip is not all here plus I am building a worktable to put my saw on etc, etc) The underpinner is solid, seems to be excellent quality and workmanship. The nails went in much easier than I expected - not much pressure required on the foot lever :) - the moulding was softwood and the nails 1/4"

I was very pleased with the finished frame. Now some (minor) negatives. These are not a real issue for me since I am a very low volume frame maker and the extra steps don't bother me but just so you know: 1) The nailer (hammer) is fixed so the frame has to slide over the nailer to put nails in different spots along the miter. On wider moulding (maybe 2 1/2" or more) you will probably have to reposition the vertical clamp so it is closer to being over the nail insertion point. 2) Once you set the far and near nail stops, you have to loosen a knob, slide the frame, then tighten the knob again before inserting the nail. On more expensive pneumatic models, the hammer moves, - so once the frame is clamped down, you slide the hammer to the correct position and fire a nail - quicker and easier but again for my low volume needs ..... an expensive bell and whistle.

Here is a link to the owner's manual that may be helpful:
http://www.fletcher-terry.com/document_pdfs/5500_Cornerpro_Manual_English.pdf

As far as shipping: I am living in Germany and I ordered mine from Pilm in Italy thru their distributor in Germany so can't comment on that. I would assume in the US that you would get it in under a week if they have it in stock. It is heavy - right around 100 pounds.

Bottom line - I like it a lot but still have not had enough experience with it. I am similar to you in the fact that I am only framing my own stuff - not looking to frame things for others.

Prost :beer: from Germany
Click to expand...

Thanks for the info, I too am small volume. And I am using glue, clamp and a brad nailer now so you know I have many steps to my process and even after being patient, don't have a professional looking frame.
 
Maryann said:
At $4 a frame, I would skip the underpinner and put your time and talents in your photography business (nice web site BTW).

Have you considered going to the local expensive framer and working out a deal for senior/family portraits? If you were in my town, I would supply you with corner samples that I buy box quantities of, a good price and we could both make a profit. Might be worth while. Just a thought.
Click to expand...


I have used her several times, even displayed her work and business cards, she does great work. But even at my cost very few will use her.

I sell mostly basic frames, but am happy to get them on a wall.
 
How do I post my own problems on here!!! lol

Hi there....I want to start my own picture framing business....am tired making money for other people!! I've bought a Minigraf....I think it's the 4....I had to buy the clamp and some V-nails.....boght the PowerTwist ones.....but I'm having problems in that the machine fired 2 at a time....then none at a time, followed by the hammer catching the bottom of the 10's block. I'm gutted and am wondering if I should send it off to Lion in England to get a (expensive?) service. Does anyone here own and operate this machine and does anyone have any ideas as to how to fix it up? I'm used to using the Cassese CS-299M XL......it's lovely to use, but I doubt I could justify the £2500 price tag at the beginning of my venture. I was looking at the manual version, with rebate clamps...Cassese CS-88. Can anyone help, or should I just cut my losses on the Minigraf and buy something new?
If you can and are willing, could you contact me direct at Shackbleep@aol.com?

Many thanks....Doug Wilson.
 
I don't know anything about the Pilm unit Steel City is referring to, but the Fletcher 5500 is also a Pilm unit, also made in Italy, imported and marketed by Fletcher.
 
dennykyser said:
I am a photographer who is now doing framing. I love it so far but using a vice, glue and brad nailer is not the most professional way to go. I also am running into some problems with the smaller frames.

I want to use a v nailer and was all set to order the Logan Pro Joiner when I found this forum. (great place by the way)

I already did a search, but not having luck with the price range I am after.

I have air piped into my framing shop for my brad nailer, so can use that if needed.

I live in rural pa so what ever I buy will have to be shipped that is another consideration.

Would love your thoughts and any advice on both a v nailer and supplier to consider.

Denny
Click to expand...

Check out this thread!!!!!
 
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