TruVue Museum vs UV Denglas
- Thread starter gemsmom
- Start date
lise
CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Pamela, may I ask why you preferred Denglass over Trueview's Museum AR?
naturephotographer
True Grumbler
We used tru-vue museum for years before uv denglas became available to us. UV denglas is easier to use since either side can be cut and either side can face the artwork. Denglas also seems to have a better quality track record; we almost never have to reject a piece because of scratches or those shiny spots this coated glass can get. The clincher is the price: $257.50 for uv denglas and I think about $317.00 for tru-vue museum.
tnframer408
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I am SO glad this thread got started. I thought I ws the onlyone who hated Museum glass, about as much as AR glass. It has a purple hue and, since I have manylimited editions in my house with Museum glass on an east wall,when the sunset hits these things, I see that purple hue.
Now for the tricky part: is this the glass that needs a special cleaner or am I thinking of another product???
I'll buy a box Monday if you guys love it that much and the price is right.
Now for the tricky part: is this the glass that needs a special cleaner or am I thinking of another product???
I'll buy a box Monday if you guys love it that much and the price is right.
Reynard
MGF, Master Grumble Framer
I am paying about 250 pounds sterling plus 17.5%tax for a box of ordinary denglass.
Now feeling completely ripped off!
Can`t wait to see the rep.
Now feeling completely ripped off!
Can`t wait to see the rep.
- Joined
- Nov 5, 1997
- Posts
- 3,822
- Business
- The Frame Workshop of Appleton, Inc
Michael,
For these reasons, we've really "shyed away" from any of the anti-reflective coated products. We stock clear, reflective control (non-glare), and Conservation Clear (TruVue). We actually stock the CC in 6 sizes but I'm thinking that this isn't enough!
I'm actually getting ready to try out the Crescent product.......perhaps include it as our "Premimum" glass (but I realize that it's UV filtering and not anti-reflective).
John
gemsmom
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2000
- Posts
- 3,576
I prefer the Denglas for pretty much the same reasons naturephotograhpher does. I do use the Denglas cleaner. It works very well on the Denglas and TruVue products. The glass is not colorless, but I think there is less color to it than the TruVue Museum glass. I used the Denglas on a white mat recently, and it made the white whiter! I think that is a plus for certain items, like wedding photos.
Framing Goddess
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I stopped at the Denglas booth in NYC and talked to a rep for a bit...
I am recalling with my faulty memory here, but this is what stuck:
-Denglas' coating is "baked" into the glass (just like TV Museum glass) EXCEPT at a much higher temperature. Which makes it a) less susceptible to scratches (the coating is "harder"), b) posess slightly higher but visually significant light transmission quality- which means that much less reflection-purple, green or otherwise, c) easier to clean, d) can be scored on either side, e) less of a propensity for the coating to "degrade" (TV claims that their Museum glass does not "turn" but I have a sample piece in the shop framed about 2 years ago that is fogging for all to see.)
I am working on a local supplier to bring this in stock. MLW, are you reading this?... hint, hint...
I hope to get my denglas literature kit in the mail soon and I will report back as soon as possible. Unless a denglas rep is lurking... hint, hint...
I am recalling with my faulty memory here, but this is what stuck:
-Denglas' coating is "baked" into the glass (just like TV Museum glass) EXCEPT at a much higher temperature. Which makes it a) less susceptible to scratches (the coating is "harder"), b) posess slightly higher but visually significant light transmission quality- which means that much less reflection-purple, green or otherwise, c) easier to clean, d) can be scored on either side, e) less of a propensity for the coating to "degrade" (TV claims that their Museum glass does not "turn" but I have a sample piece in the shop framed about 2 years ago that is fogging for all to see.)
I am working on a local supplier to bring this in stock. MLW, are you reading this?... hint, hint...
I hope to get my denglas literature kit in the mail soon and I will report back as soon as possible. Unless a denglas rep is lurking... hint, hint...
Reynard
MGF, Master Grumble Framer
I find Denglass scratches really easily.I have to put bubble wrap between every cut piece I have just to be on the safe side.I have thrown out a fair bit of that glass over the four or five years I have stocked it, which speaking as a mean tight fisted Scotsman really really hurts!
Reynard
MGF, Master Grumble Framer
I must add that it arrives perfectly usually.Its me that scratches it by hurling it around the place like a bag of meal.So its probably technically my own fault.I am much better with it now.
RevBev
True Grumbler
I don't have the poop sheet handy, but isn't the UV transmission percentage for the Denglas "museum" glass a bit higher than TruVue's?
gemsmom
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
- Joined
- Oct 10, 2000
- Posts
- 3,576
Something the Denglas salesman told me was one difference between TruVue and Denglas was the TruVue was "organic" (whatever that means exactly) and the Denglas was not. According to him, this meant the TV would "breakdown", I think the # of years he quoted was 7, and the UV protection would be gone from the TV product. Propoganda? Truth? I don't know, only time will tell. What I was getting to was, TV Museum glass offers 97% protection, Denglas 90%. However, if what I am told is true, in seven years you will still have 90% protection if you use Denglas, 0% if you use TruVue. I do sell UV glass almost exclusively, and intend to find out just what the facts are.
- Joined
- Nov 5, 1997
- Posts
- 3,822
- Business
- The Frame Workshop of Appleton, Inc
Pamela,
Even if the TV breakdown were true, which I doubt it is, you would still not end up at 0% protection, as regular plain glass offers about 64-67% UV protection, I believe!
John
(Will be curious as to what you are able to uncover!)
rosetl
CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Haven't tried Den Glass in some years and I understand the product is much different then "way back when" when it was the only AR glass around, so I can't help on that. It was always easy to spot the Den because of the purple cast.
On the degredation of the TV UV coating -- I feel like there should be something on Urban Legends on this! It seems the story keeps changing and changing....it does, it doesn't....... It would be great if Tru Vu would speak up as I sure thought this was old news and earlier products or other manufacturers on the market?
On the other hand there is UV Plexi---and that is stable, from all reports I've read.....
And, as to percentage -- higher is better than what it seems by the straight percentage points --as UV light is sort of like on a graduated scale (darn, can't recall the real name). I'm sure you have all read about the UV protection handling amounts in nanometer ranges -- well, the most damaging is in the highest ranges meaning that 50 to 60% protection doesn't do much, as I am sure we all can verify if we've been framing for awhile.
On the degredation of the TV UV coating -- I feel like there should be something on Urban Legends on this! It seems the story keeps changing and changing....it does, it doesn't....... It would be great if Tru Vu would speak up as I sure thought this was old news and earlier products or other manufacturers on the market?
On the other hand there is UV Plexi---and that is stable, from all reports I've read.....
And, as to percentage -- higher is better than what it seems by the straight percentage points --as UV light is sort of like on a graduated scale (darn, can't recall the real name). I'm sure you have all read about the UV protection handling amounts in nanometer ranges -- well, the most damaging is in the highest ranges meaning that 50 to 60% protection doesn't do much, as I am sure we all can verify if we've been framing for awhile.
tnframer408
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Isn't the term you're seeking "logarithmic progression?"
It's the law of diminishing returns, where as in stereophonic equipment there's a level where a $20,000 system sounds a little better than a $15,000 system, but a $10,000 system sounds a whole lot better than a $5,000.
clear as mud???
It's the law of diminishing returns, where as in stereophonic equipment there's a level where a $20,000 system sounds a little better than a $15,000 system, but a $10,000 system sounds a whole lot better than a $5,000.
clear as mud???
B. Newman
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Uh, yeah.
All I wanna know is, will it scratch by simply looking at it? My Tru Vue seems to.
What is that stuff that you had to score, then cut the middle with a knife? I saw some of it demo'ed years ago and I thought it would be more trouble than it was worth.
Betty
D
Dermot
Guest
Betty
Schott glass out of Germany make the laminated glass you refer to, they have US distribution, you are right this glass does pose a challenge to cut but with a bit of practice it becomes very easy, there should be a benefit to your client if they use laminated glass ie. they could be able to reduce the insurance they pay to cover the artwork, laminated glass is unlikely to damage the artwork/image if it breaks.
One of the US picture frame glass companies are developing a similar product, I will not post their name as they asked me to keep it confidential until they are ready to launch it to the picture frame market, I have no doubt that if they are ready with the product they will let Grumblers know they keep an eye on the Grumble.
Schott glass out of Germany make the laminated glass you refer to, they have US distribution, you are right this glass does pose a challenge to cut but with a bit of practice it becomes very easy, there should be a benefit to your client if they use laminated glass ie. they could be able to reduce the insurance they pay to cover the artwork, laminated glass is unlikely to damage the artwork/image if it breaks.
One of the US picture frame glass companies are developing a similar product, I will not post their name as they asked me to keep it confidential until they are ready to launch it to the picture frame market, I have no doubt that if they are ready with the product they will let Grumblers know they keep an eye on the Grumble.
Ruth Yheulon CPF
CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
This was a topic of discussion on HH's last year at this time. I contacted True Vue then and this was the response that was given regarding the breakdown of the coating on their conservation quality glass.
This is reprinted with permission from Patti Dumbaugh (originally posted 3/1/01):
Hard coatings for glass can be divided into two major categories:
Inorganic, (essentially bound-silica), and organic (polymeric). The hard
coating provided by Tru-Vue to its customers is primarily an inorganic
silica-based film containing a small percentage of additional organic
components.
Hello, Hitchhikers:
Over the past few months there have been a lot of calls into Tru Vue and
also discussion on the hitchhiker about how long various UV coatings last
and what difference organic vs. inorganic means in terms of longevity. I
received requests for more scientific information. The response below is
from the scientists at Gentek - I'm sure you've all heard of this company -
they are a leader in research & development of many innovative products.
It's as much as I can share without revealing all of our proprietary
technology, but I hope that for those of you who are really interested in
the chemistry of the coating, this will answer your questions.
'This film consists of inert silicas chemically bound directly to the silica
in the glass surface, via Si-O-Si bonds, the same bonds that hold the glass
itself together. The inert nature of this siliceous coating means it is
non-reactive, non-volatile, permanently hard, and nearly as resistant to
weathering, humidity, temperature extremes, chemicals and other
environmental factors as the raw glass surface itself. Thus, the coating is
engineered for permanence from the start.
Tru-Vue's coated glass far outperforms the popular organic-based (typically
acrylic) glass coatings in ASTM accelerated testing such as humidity
resistance and salt fog. And while these polymeric coatings sometimes
contain silica as an additive in an attempt to compensate for poor scratch
resistance, it does not change the underlying physical weaknesses of
polymeric-based coatings. Indeed, Tru-Vue's coating is significantly
superior to these organic coatings in chemical resistance, water
sensitivity, long-term adhesion, and hardness.
The organic component of Tru-Vue's coating consists of a small percentage of
ultra-violet (UV) light absorbers that allow the film to function as a
filter for damaging UV light. What is particularly unique about the patented
UV absorbing system built into Tru-Vue's coating versus other similar
coatings, is the permanence of the absorber. The UV absorber is chemically
bound to the rest of the coating during the production process, to yield an
absorber that does not degrade, migrate, or extrude to the surface (common
problems with some coatings). The only way to physically damage the UV
absorber in Tru-Vue's coating is to expose it continuously to extremely high
temperatures, in excess of 400 degrees F, which is not a likely circumstance
under any conceivable conditions of end use.
Many polymeric coatings, on the other hand, such as poly methyl
methacrylates, polyethylenes, and aliphatic polyesters, are susceptible to
degradation when exposed to UV light due to the presence of chromophoric
impurities that absorb in the UV region. This eventually leads to photo
degradation of the film. Thus, these polymeric coatings require the presence
of UV absorbers for the purpose of self-protection, as much as for their
ultimate UV filtering function.'
Patrica L. Dumbaugh
Director of Marketing
Tru Vue
pdumbaugh@tru-vue.com
This is reprinted with permission from Patti Dumbaugh (originally posted 3/1/01):
Hard coatings for glass can be divided into two major categories:
Inorganic, (essentially bound-silica), and organic (polymeric). The hard
coating provided by Tru-Vue to its customers is primarily an inorganic
silica-based film containing a small percentage of additional organic
components.
Hello, Hitchhikers:
Over the past few months there have been a lot of calls into Tru Vue and
also discussion on the hitchhiker about how long various UV coatings last
and what difference organic vs. inorganic means in terms of longevity. I
received requests for more scientific information. The response below is
from the scientists at Gentek - I'm sure you've all heard of this company -
they are a leader in research & development of many innovative products.
It's as much as I can share without revealing all of our proprietary
technology, but I hope that for those of you who are really interested in
the chemistry of the coating, this will answer your questions.
'This film consists of inert silicas chemically bound directly to the silica
in the glass surface, via Si-O-Si bonds, the same bonds that hold the glass
itself together. The inert nature of this siliceous coating means it is
non-reactive, non-volatile, permanently hard, and nearly as resistant to
weathering, humidity, temperature extremes, chemicals and other
environmental factors as the raw glass surface itself. Thus, the coating is
engineered for permanence from the start.
Tru-Vue's coated glass far outperforms the popular organic-based (typically
acrylic) glass coatings in ASTM accelerated testing such as humidity
resistance and salt fog. And while these polymeric coatings sometimes
contain silica as an additive in an attempt to compensate for poor scratch
resistance, it does not change the underlying physical weaknesses of
polymeric-based coatings. Indeed, Tru-Vue's coating is significantly
superior to these organic coatings in chemical resistance, water
sensitivity, long-term adhesion, and hardness.
The organic component of Tru-Vue's coating consists of a small percentage of
ultra-violet (UV) light absorbers that allow the film to function as a
filter for damaging UV light. What is particularly unique about the patented
UV absorbing system built into Tru-Vue's coating versus other similar
coatings, is the permanence of the absorber. The UV absorber is chemically
bound to the rest of the coating during the production process, to yield an
absorber that does not degrade, migrate, or extrude to the surface (common
problems with some coatings). The only way to physically damage the UV
absorber in Tru-Vue's coating is to expose it continuously to extremely high
temperatures, in excess of 400 degrees F, which is not a likely circumstance
under any conceivable conditions of end use.
Many polymeric coatings, on the other hand, such as poly methyl
methacrylates, polyethylenes, and aliphatic polyesters, are susceptible to
degradation when exposed to UV light due to the presence of chromophoric
impurities that absorb in the UV region. This eventually leads to photo
degradation of the film. Thus, these polymeric coatings require the presence
of UV absorbers for the purpose of self-protection, as much as for their
ultimate UV filtering function.'
Patrica L. Dumbaugh
Director of Marketing
Tru Vue
pdumbaugh@tru-vue.com
D
Dermot
Guest
I had an Email from Ernie Robertson of Tru Vue, they are the US company who have developed their own range of museum laminated glass, for those of you who might have an interest in these products you should contact Ernie as below who will fill you in on this product range from Tru Vue, I suspect that the reps from Tru Vue who sell to the framing industry may not have full details of this product.
Hello Dermot,
Been following the thread on the Museum Glass, etc and saw your post regarding the Museum Security Glass you and I corresponded about a few months ago. Yes we are producing and selling the laminated water white antireflective product, as well as water white antireflective and added in the last 90 days a anti reflective 3 mil acrylic.
Best regards,
Ernie Robertson
Museum Sales Manager
Tru Vue Inc.
280 W. Iowa Ave
Suite B
Southern Pines, NC 28387
910 692 4283 office
910 692 8855 fax
ernrob@earthlink.net email
Now guys don’t get upset if the price of laminated glass seems a little bit high remember laminated glass is two sheets of glass with a laminate in the centre also bear in mind that this glass can and does offer some very serious additional benefits on single sheet glass, for example safety, insurance reductions, theft reduction, reduced scratching to name a few.
Despite being only able to get with any degree of certainty standard glass and acrylic in Ireland I have endeavoured to try and keep up with the technological advances that have being made with glass suitable for framing and museum display and have learned to disregard some of the old stories that are around about the various glasses and their manufactures the reality is that the sort of glass which is around nowadays is well advanced on what was around years ago, the best way to make comparisons is at the very least to have up to date literature from the manufacturers and to disregard some of the old stories and myths that are around about the various glass and their manufacturers.
Hello Dermot,
Been following the thread on the Museum Glass, etc and saw your post regarding the Museum Security Glass you and I corresponded about a few months ago. Yes we are producing and selling the laminated water white antireflective product, as well as water white antireflective and added in the last 90 days a anti reflective 3 mil acrylic.
Best regards,
Ernie Robertson
Museum Sales Manager
Tru Vue Inc.
280 W. Iowa Ave
Suite B
Southern Pines, NC 28387
910 692 4283 office
910 692 8855 fax
ernrob@earthlink.net email
Now guys don’t get upset if the price of laminated glass seems a little bit high remember laminated glass is two sheets of glass with a laminate in the centre also bear in mind that this glass can and does offer some very serious additional benefits on single sheet glass, for example safety, insurance reductions, theft reduction, reduced scratching to name a few.
Despite being only able to get with any degree of certainty standard glass and acrylic in Ireland I have endeavoured to try and keep up with the technological advances that have being made with glass suitable for framing and museum display and have learned to disregard some of the old stories that are around about the various glasses and their manufactures the reality is that the sort of glass which is around nowadays is well advanced on what was around years ago, the best way to make comparisons is at the very least to have up to date literature from the manufacturers and to disregard some of the old stories and myths that are around about the various glass and their manufacturers.
rosetl
CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Thanks Michael -- that is the term I was looking for!
And, thanks to Ruth for digging up and giving us the TV data.
And, so cool to hear about the new laminated stuff coming out by TV....and a real kudo's to the Grumble for getting the info here!
And, thanks to Ruth for digging up and giving us the TV data.
And, so cool to hear about the new laminated stuff coming out by TV....and a real kudo's to the Grumble for getting the info here!
CYRO
Grumbler
What are the perceived advantages of laminated glass over scratch resistant acrylic?
D
Dermot
Guest
Good question.
I have no experience of scratch resistant Acrylic, but I have used generic Acrylic 2, 3, and 4mm Acrylic for framing, one problem I have encountered and have not being able to over come is when using spacers with Acrylic it tends to bow or ripple, I not sure what terminology you use for this in the US, this will not happen with glass of any kind, if it did you would know about it the glass would shatter, the bowing can be quite noticeable when it is a big piece via the weight of the Acrylic.
Acrylic has being good to my business, I’m one of the few framers in Ireland who has gone to the trouble to work out how to use Acrylic for framing, the result is that I have being getting work referred to me by other framers where safety is an issue and I’m building nice corporate and Government work because I will offer the service of using Acrylic, I get a big premium on work when Acrylic is used, in general my COG goes from about 25% down to about 16% when I use Acrylic……nice business and worth the problem, I’m also possible the only framers who gets paid for Government work in advance the perception is that I do not run credit accounts hence I get paid up front, this is because I was reluctant to do this sort of work for Government due to the long time they can take to pay, it can be up to six months.
There is legislation in place for safety in public places so many public areas are now insisting on Acrylic for framing in these areas.
The other old bone that comes to mind is………dare I use the word the “traditional" use of glass.
I have no experience of scratch resistant Acrylic, but I have used generic Acrylic 2, 3, and 4mm Acrylic for framing, one problem I have encountered and have not being able to over come is when using spacers with Acrylic it tends to bow or ripple, I not sure what terminology you use for this in the US, this will not happen with glass of any kind, if it did you would know about it the glass would shatter, the bowing can be quite noticeable when it is a big piece via the weight of the Acrylic.
Acrylic has being good to my business, I’m one of the few framers in Ireland who has gone to the trouble to work out how to use Acrylic for framing, the result is that I have being getting work referred to me by other framers where safety is an issue and I’m building nice corporate and Government work because I will offer the service of using Acrylic, I get a big premium on work when Acrylic is used, in general my COG goes from about 25% down to about 16% when I use Acrylic……nice business and worth the problem, I’m also possible the only framers who gets paid for Government work in advance the perception is that I do not run credit accounts hence I get paid up front, this is because I was reluctant to do this sort of work for Government due to the long time they can take to pay, it can be up to six months.
There is legislation in place for safety in public places so many public areas are now insisting on Acrylic for framing in these areas.
The other old bone that comes to mind is………dare I use the word the “traditional" use of glass.
rosetl
CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
I thought you might like to know that I have noticed a consumer unawareness on the acrylic and negative concern about it. Most seem to have the idea it is cheaper, though it is the opposite.....and even if more money, a "cheaper" looking product that will yellow or get fuzzy.
(We handle this by saying they are probably thinking of styrene -- not acrylic)
When I suggest acrylic (as I do on 99% of my oversized pieces) I frequently get asked if it will look any different.....and a little feeling of mistrust on whether or not it will look OK. Customers actually ask me the benefits of one over the other when the subject comes up.
Of course, I've replaced some damaged & scratched "plexi" over the years, but I've never had one piece of acrylite or plexiglass returned due to yellowing or fuzzing out.
(We handle this by saying they are probably thinking of styrene -- not acrylic)
When I suggest acrylic (as I do on 99% of my oversized pieces) I frequently get asked if it will look any different.....and a little feeling of mistrust on whether or not it will look OK. Customers actually ask me the benefits of one over the other when the subject comes up.
Of course, I've replaced some damaged & scratched "plexi" over the years, but I've never had one piece of acrylite or plexiglass returned due to yellowing or fuzzing out.