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Question Truvue museum reflection - green or purple

Zakkaz

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Hi, I'm a customer who has used various framers for often valuable (to me) artworks, and finally settled on a very good one, who has framed for museums and some big clients.

It has been a learning experience as unfortunately some framers have not carried out what I asked, or frames have come scuffed in transit, spacers missing in float mounts, wrong glass used etc. We all make mistakes, perhaps in unlucky, but if I'm spending a lot of money, and clearly specifying what I'd like, it's frustrating.

So I picked up a couple pieces the other month, where one was supposed to be framed with truvue conservation clear and other truvue museum. Unfortunately the museum glass piece had not had museum used as I could see my own reflection. I took it back to the workshop and they swiftly replaced both with museum.

Given past experiences I've had, it's made me a bit paranoid, especially ensuring framers use the correct glass, especially in a big workshop with lots of staff and the many glazing options available. Fading is my biggest concern for artwork protection.

So both pieces have a light purple hue/tinge, whereas other TV museum glass pieces I have picked up before and soon after have a slightly green tinge. I understand the green is normal, but is purple normal? I'm comparing pieces hanging in exactly the same spot.

So it's made me a little worried. Could they have used something else? Why the slight colour difference, purple and green?

Now I'm worried if they've used truvue anti reflective 79% glass. Is there a positive way of differentiation between TV ar and TV museum? Does one reflect a different colour to the other?

Thanks for reading
 

JFeig

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Hi Zakkaz,
I will be the first to try to answer your technical questions first I see that you are in the UK, I am in the USA (Michigan) and have been a picture framer for well over 30 years. I have tried to stay abreast of the newest technology since the beginning of my framing career.

Lets start. There are 2 basic versions of "float glass". One is the basic glass that has a greenish cast to it from the edge. This color is due to impurities in the basic ingredients (trace quantities of iron). The second version, goes by several names that vary by glass manufacturer. Technically it is "low iron" glass.

As far as "anti-glare" and "Ultra Violet" filtering properties for glass, this additional property is performed by placing a coating onto the glass in one of several manners. A word of caution with these coatings, they do scratch. For plastic glazing, acrylic is the generic name of the material with Perspex®, Plexiglas®, and Acrulite® among the most common trade names. The UV properties are blended into the plastic before the sheets are formed. Anti-reflective surface coatings are needed for plastic.

The "reflective color shift" (green vs purple) of the coatings may be different from one manufacturer to another or dependent on the thickness of the coating, therefore the difference in color. There are three major manufactures who supply "anti-reflective" and "anti-reflective plus UV filtering" glazing in Europe. TruVue® is from the USA, There are also companies in Germany and Latvia that supply Europe.

As far as "seeing your reflection" in the glass here is my comment. All optics is a compromise of physical properties. If you wanted 100% anti-reflective, you would not be able to see through the glass at all. The proper test is to look a 2 specimens of glass at the same time and angle and compare the 2 side by side.

As far as a picture framer not installing the glass as specified in your order. This might happen once in a while (I know, it has happened to me) but is this happen too often, something is wrong. A good picture framer should "bend over backwards" to fix the deficiency ASAP with a smile of apology.

Regarding the testing of UV glass in a non-laboratory environment, a UV light source can be used to see if the light passed through the glass.
 

wpfay

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On the practical side, testing the amount of UV transmission takes fairly sophisticated equipment and can't be done with the glass in the frame.
You can do a UV transmission test with a UV light source and an object that fluoresces, but that will only tell you that there is some UV protection or not, not the degree of protection. Once again, outside the frame.
What may be happening is the framer is using both Tru Vue (Museum Glass) and Groglass (Artglass AR99) products. I have both in my shop. Both claim the same 99% UV filtering and are anti-reflective, though they do differ in appearance to the trained eye. This might happen if they are transitioning from one product to the other.
 

Zakkaz

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Hi, thanks for your reply. I'm aware of quite a few of these points, since reading the forum, using around 10 framers and the different materials (I usually float into cotton rag board eg Peterborough, with mylar or Japanese hinging etc)

It's more I don't understand why truvue museum has 2 different colour shifts? Truvue is the manufacturer of truvue? I've not seen a purple/pink tinge, usually green. Both glasses are very rippled/orange peel.

That's why I wondered what the colour reflection and rippling is like for ultravue or TV anti reflection.
 

Zakkaz

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On the practical side, testing the amount of UV transmission takes fairly sophisticated equipment and can't be done with the glass in the frame.
You can do a UV transmission test with a UV light source and an object that fluoresces, but that will only tell you that there is some UV protection or not, not the degree of protection. Once again, outside the frame.
What may be happening is the framer is using both Tru Vue (Museum Glass) and Groglass (Artglass AR99) products. I have both in my shop. Both claim the same 99% UV filtering and are anti-reflective, though they do differ in appearance to the trained eye. This might happen if they are transitioning from one product to the other.
Artglass 99 museum has the similar green tinge but less rippling from my older pieces. So I don't think it's that.

I did read an older post here about there being some slight variation in mineral content or whatever, maybe leading to this.

But I haven't read anything concrete. One piece is worth a couple thousand pounds so I wanted to be sure, somehow.
 
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Ylva

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Truvue is the company for museum glass. Which is what I use, here in the USA. I don’t have easy access to other glazing options with 99% up protection

I have never seen a green hue on museum glass in the past 12 years I have been using it.
TV did upgrade the museum glass about a year ago. I did not see a noticeable difference.

When I sell MG, I always point out that yes, there is glass, there will be some reflection and it also depends where it is hanging. But it is still better than conservation clear, which does have the same protection, just not the crystal clear finish.

This is a conversation to have with your framer. If you are unhappy with the work and the service, repeatedly, you might have to search further.
We all make mistakes. Personally, I go out of my way to make my customer happy, even if it was not my mistake. Within reason of course.
 

wvframer

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I have never seen Tru Vue Museum Glass show color on the edge. I have been using it since it was reintroduced. I use TV exclusively, and MG is the clearest of their offerings.

MG will show reflection when viewing from an angle but should be nearly invisible when viewed straight on.

The TV Conservation Non-Glare has a slight orange cast at the edge. Premium Clear is slightly green, and Conservation Clear is very faintly green, almost grey. On rare occasions, I have seen CC show a slight orange edge.

I have a small shop and a handful of times have installed the incorrect glazing. Usually, I catch this in my final inspection when I compare what is in front of me to the work order. This happens when the chosen glazing is not what the framer uses for the majority of the work coming through the shop. But it should only happen once.

With the technology we have available now, it is easy to have a reminder in the customer record about their preferred glazing. And then there is the old-fashioned yellow highlighter to mark it on the work order.

I think in 25 years I only handed the order to a customer with the wrong glazing once, and we caught it before the customer left the store and were able to make it right.

In a busier shop, this could happen more often, but still, once called on it, if the problem persists, there is something wrong. I would be wanting to talk to the decision-maker.

I don't think that having a slightly different color cast is a problem, but if it bothers you, and you were my customer I would be making them match.
 

Zakkaz

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Maybe different suppliers as numerous posts on this forum within the last 12 years have mentioned a green tinge / reflection with TV museum, its one of the characteristics of the glass, and I've seen it on many frame jobs myself. Maybe you've used a different glass?

Nor unhappy with the job - I'm just curious why the recent job had a pinky / purple tinge rather than green. I want to make sure it's correct and consistent.

I'll check in with them when I collect my last lot next month.
 

Zakkaz

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Yeah I'm not talking about the edge reflection, I've never seen the edge of the glass once framed, if you mean uncut glass. I mean the color shift when you hold and tilt the artwork or walk past it at certain angles, I suppose the angle of incidence
 

wvframer

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I may see color differently from others. But it is all TV. But even the old stuff was clearer than the other glazings on offer from TV.

Good luck.
 
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wvframer

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The edge reflection is the easiest way for me to see the tint; not so much for you! Sorry, did not think of that. :)

But the color I see of the edge will be faintly visible across the plane
 

Zakkaz

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I have never seen Tru Vue Museum Glass show color on the edge. I have been using it since it was reintroduced. I use TV exclusively, and MG is the clearest of their offerings.

MG will show reflection when viewing from an angle but should be nearly invisible when viewed straight on.

The TV Conservation Non-Glare has a slight orange cast at the edge. Premium Clear is slightly green, and Conservation Clear is very faintly green, almost grey. On rare occasions, I have seen CC show a slight orange edge.

I have a small shop and a handful of times have installed the incorrect glazing. Usually, I catch this in my final inspection when I compare what is in front of me to the work order. This happens when the chosen glazing is not what the framer uses for the majority of the work coming through the shop. But it should only happen once.

With the technology we have available now, it is easy to have a reminder in the customer record about their preferred glazing. And then there is the old-fashioned yellow highlighter to mark it on the work order.

I think in 25 years I only handed the order to a customer with the wrong glazing once, and we caught it before the customer left the store and were able to make it right.

In a busier shop, this could happen more often, but still, once called on it, if the problem persists, there is something wrong. I would be wanting to talk to the decision-maker.

I don't think that having a slightly different color cast is a problem, but if it bothers you, and you were my customer I would be making them match.
It doesn't bother me, as long as they've used the correct glass. Of course their records will show the correct glass selected at the time, but errors can happen in the workshop.

My query is as mentioned in the first post - my previous TV museum has a green reflection. I know that's consistent with the glass. Has it been known for definite to be a purple/pink too like my last pick up
 

Framar

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I always see a green or purple tinge when viewing Museum Glass. It drives me crazy.

But another factor can come into play with what you are seeing. A lot depends on the color of the art and the paper it is on and the matting/mounting. The tinges show up a lot over white - not so much on dark colors.
 

Zakkaz

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Does truvue ultravue, TV anti reflective also reflect certain colours at certain angles?
 

Zakkaz

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I always see a green or purple tinge when viewing Museum Glass. It drives me crazy.

But another factor can come into play with what you are seeing. A lot depends on the color of the art and the paper it is on and the matting/mounting. The tinges show up a lot over white - not so much on dark colors.
OK so you can get EITHER green or purple tinge. That helps a little in alleviating my concern. I wonder WHY that is the case.

It doesn't bother me in the slightest, I accept it for the protection I get.

I just want the correct glass to have been used.
 
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wpfay

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The newer version of Museum Glass from Tru Vue is more like the Artglass AR99 in that the slight orange peel texture is all but gone. Much smoother and easier to clean.
I have seem both colors, green and purple, in the same lite of AR glass, depending on the light source and angle. Tru Vue and its distributors kept selling the older inventory before restocking with the newer technology. I was still getting the older technology for 3 years after the new was announced.
I don't use the Ultraview, or the standard AR glass from Tru Vue, but my understanding is that the AR glass is the same AR coating as Museum Glass.

If protection from UV is your primary concern, the Conservation Clear product from Tru Vue has the same UV protection as the Museum Glass. Just keep in mind that UV isn't the only source of energy that can damage art. IR and visible light also accelerates oxidation, and fading, depending on the kind of pigments used, can happen with no light at all.
 
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Mike Labbe

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Purple is what I have always noticed on MG, at a certain angle. We love the stuff!

Green may be an indication of the iron levels in the glass, which can vary based on which factory produced it and where in the world the factory and materials were sourced.
 

alacrity8

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I had heard that True Vue uses that same type of float glass in the Conservation and Non-Conservation glasses.
This glass has a mild greenish hue, that is most obvious if you can see the edge.
The Conservation grade glasses have a protective coating that makes the edge have a reddish/purplish hue.
I have seen a few older sheets of True Vue Conservation glass that had a greenish edge hue.
The best way to tell a Conservation coating is the slight rippling of the finish. On newer Museum glasses, that may be harder to see.

Looking at the glass straight on, I very rarely notice any color to the glass. I might possibly notice if two identical pieces were hung side by side with differing glass.
 

Ylva

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Yes, sorry, as framers we look more at the edge of the glass!

Experiment with different light sources, to see how it reflects. Some might have a slightly greener tone to it, some would be purple.

As I understand it, MG is built up with different layers. I’d think the purple is the Uv protection layer.
 

Zakkaz

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So I've been doing some more looking with previous TV museum pieces framed at different framers.

There's no reflection viewed head on, slightly green when viewed at an angle and this changes to a pink/purple as I tilt the glass away from me at an angle.

This appears to be consistent with what some are saying with TV museum?

I tried a different light source with the piece I originally thought had just a purple / pink tinge/reflection and in fact is slightly green going to a pink/purple at the edge, as I tilt away, which is consistent now with all my other TV museum pieces tested at the same light source.

So, I'm finally seeing some consistency; TV museum, used from different framers, all reflect a green colour shifting to a purple/pink tilted away at the edge. This alleviates my worry quite a lot.

I'm not sure why some here mentioned only seeing a purple/pink tinge in their MG? Were you guys specifically referring to TV MUSEUM? I'm guessing it may be iron variability in your stock, different suppliers etc.
 
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Ylva

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When you look at the glass when it is cut, so raw edges, you can see a distinct difference between non conservation glass, which is green, and conservation glass (MG and others from TV) which is distinctly purple.

When you look at the slight reflection of MG, from the front, you can see different colors, depending on the light source and angle you view it from.

When you look at it straight, it gives you a true view, without much color shift or distortion, plus it is amazingly clear.

we describe things the way we see it as framers, which might lead to some confusion.
 

Pat Murphey

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In addition to the little black box TruVue display, I had Museum Glass framed art all over my shop so that customers could see for themselves how windows lamps and spotlights appeared in the Museum Glass. Informed decisions prevent complaints.
 

Zakkaz

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As long as I have the correct glass installed, I am fine.

Should glass be replaced after a certain number of years?
 

Zakkaz

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Would truvue optium museum acrylic be considered an upgrade eventually from TV mg?
 
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RoboFramer

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I'm a UK framer.

The only two single-layer optically coated glass products that meet the ISO for conservation glass, as far as I'm aware, are Tru Vue Museum and Artglass AR99 by Groglass. Both have a green reflection - from a light bulb/tube that is. Museum glass is a darker green than artglass (from offcuts of both that I have)

The last coated glass I had with a blue/purple reflection was either 70 (or so) % UV filtering, which is not worth mentioning or 92%, which does not meet the ISO of 97%. Both used reflective filtering too, so that reduces the figures anyway; it needs to be absorptive.

Was there a sticker on the back of the frame stating what glass was used - and/or on your copy of any worksheet/invoice?
 

cjmst3k

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DenGlas was considerably greener than any option currently out there. If it was framed 30 years ago, then DG might be one, but they went out a while back, if I recall.
 
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Ylva

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On another note. I hope your framer pointed out that although it has the best glass available to us, fading is caused by many other factors beside UV.
As a framer, we have little control over the materials used to create the art.

As an example, sharpie markers fade. The 99% uv protection will help to slow it down, but it won’t prevent fading.

As someone well known in our industry always says: “everything fades”. We can only control the speed, somewhat.
 

cjmst3k

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Ylva, is that because there are other frequencies of light that fade, but it happens so slowly, except for direct sunlight?
 

Ylva

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It is not just uv light that causes fading. Some materials are more prone to fading than others.

Think of a newspaper article. No matter what preservation you throw at it, it will still fade and deteriorate.

UV protection is important, but not the only factor of why something fades.
 

Framar

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Another thing to remember: light and fading are not the only perils faced by artwork. Heat, humidity, insects, mold - all of these enemies have to be avoided or battled to keep your art safe.

Here is a fascinating read about the efforts to preserve The Declaration of Independence: https://www.wired.com/2009/07/dayintech-0704/
 
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JFeig

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For you enjoyment I have linked the following. These projects are real preservation taken out to the nth degree. The standard seal specification was for a 150 year life without opening the enclosures. Oxygen ingress was designed to be less that 5,000 ppm (0.5%) leakage over the 150 years. Per Hugh Phibbs, that standard is in the area area of theoretical and not cost effective. Conservators want to keep working and examine materials more often that once every 150 years.

https://www.nist.gov/topics/manufacturing/charters-freedom-project
https://www.nist.gov/news-events/news/2012/02/charter-service-encasing-magna-carta

The first project was completed in 2007. It comprised of 6 enclosures at a total cost of $16,000,000 plus the donation of blocks of titanium and aluminum that were not part of the budget. The Magna Carta was the second project for the LOC about 6 years later.
 

Jim Miller

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As for direct sunlight, that is the fastest way to make sure something fades. But interior lights can too.
Yes, this is spot-on.

Unfortunately, most consumers and a lot of framers misunderstand how radiation damage works. Regardless of its source, all light is radiation and so is invisible ultraviolet (should we call it light if we can't see it?). Some radiation wavelengths are more harmful than others. a couple of years ago I made a 5-minute video to explain how that works, but it's too big to post here. Maybe I can find a link. If so, I'll post it.
 

Mike Labbe

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Jim,
Thank you so much for generously sharing your time and expertise!
Mike
 

Bob Carter

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of all the posts, mine will be the least technical. Most everything in our house has Museum glass and like Z, we see a greenish hue in certain angles, Like Emerald City in Wizard of OZ. It goes away with angle and is more noticeable on B/W photos than anything. We love the stuff and the hue is a great reminder that we have MG.
We used to get our stuff framed by a sub-standard outfit but can't remember the wrong glass ever being used. Even the average Joe like me can tell the difference instantly
That rare glimpse of greenish hue is a reminder of the good stuff. We jokingly called 'vampire glass' because you couldn't see your reflection
I love the stuff
 
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IFGL

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Does truvue ultravue, TV anti reflective also reflect certain colours at certain angles?
Ultravue doesn't have the ripple effect you are talking about, that ripple effect is from the UV coating on the back of the glass, I have only ever seen the ripple effect on UV 99% protection, that's been on both the museum version and the Conservation / preservation types, if your glass also has the anti reflective properties it will be the museum glass that has been used.

Edit, there is no ripple effect on the artglass version of the glass.
 

Rosemary Susan Hillhouse

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Hi Zakkaz,
I will be the first to try to answer your technical questions first I see that you are in the UK, I am in the USA (Michigan) and have been a picture framer for well over 30 years. I have tried to stay abreast of the newest technology since the beginning of my framing career.

Lets start. There are 2 basic versions of "float glass". One is the basic glass that has a greenish cast to it from the edge. This color is due to impurities in the basic ingredients (trace quantities of iron). The second version, goes by several names that vary by glass manufacturer. Technically it is "low iron" glass.

As far as "anti-glare" and "Ultra Violet" filtering properties for glass, this additional property is performed by placing a coating onto the glass in one of several manners. A word of caution with these coatings, they do scratch. For plastic glazing, acrylic is the generic name of the material with Perspex®, Plexiglas®, and Acrulite® among the most common trade names. The UV properties are blended into the plastic before the sheets are formed. Anti-reflective surface coatings are needed for plastic.

The "reflective color shift" (green vs purple) of the coatings may be different from one manufacturer to another or dependent on the thickness of the coating, therefore the difference in color. There are three major manufactures who supply "anti-reflective" and "anti-reflective plus UV filtering" glazing in Europe. TruVue® is from the USA, There are also companies in Germany and Latvia that supply Europe.

As far as "seeing your reflection" in the glass here is my comment. All optics is a compromise of physical properties. If you wanted 100% anti-reflective, you would not be able to see through the glass at all. The proper test is to look a 2 specimens of glass at the same time and angle and compare the 2 side by side.

As far as a picture framer not installing the glass as specified in your order. This might happen once in a while (I know, it has happened to me) but is this happen too often, something is wrong. A good picture framer should "bend over backwards" to fix the deficiency ASAP with a smile of apology.

Regarding the testing of UV glass in a non-laboratory environment, a UV light source can be used to see if the light passed through the glass.
Hello Zakkaz,

This is my first time on a forum of this nature so please excuse me if I make some sort of error.
I am having trouble cleaning TVUV70 glass.
I do everything that I can to minimally touch the glass and I use (as little as possible) Tru vue cleaner and a special microfibre cloth,( as per a multitude of videos)
My problem is that sometimes it gets this ingrained smudge that no amount of careful rubbing will budge. It is often only noticeable at certain angles and my speciality is box frames where there is a space between the glass and the artwork. It isn't really noticeable when using a matboard and glass against the matboard.
I try so hard not to over rub it but sometimes when there is a small spot I have no alternative. It doesn't always happen.
Do you have any tips or helpful comments.
It is sending me crazy trying to solve this problem.
many thanks Sue Hillhouse
 

JFeig

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Re the easy question first. Wear cotton inspection gloves to avoid finger prints and handle the glass from the edges. This might take a little practice.

I have never used TV's 70% UV glass. Glass off of the glass manufacturing line is about 40% UV filtering to begin with and never thought that a 70% filtering product was worth the upcharge.

As for the "ingrained smudge", other that manufacturing defects, I have not had any problems with cleaning. This might be an actual defect in the UV coating.
I do clean the microfiber cleaning cloths in my laundry in a separate batch without anything else with standard laundry detergent and NO SOFTENERS. You can do the same if you only have one or 2 cloths by hand. My table is covered with Kraft paper (the tan colored wrapping paper) that comes in 9" diameter rolls. I can change this paper for every job if I deem necessary so that the surface is spotless. This the the same paper that most of the North American framers use as a dust cover for the back of the frame jobs we do.
 

wvframer

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I have successfullyl used spot cleaning with Naptha for persistent spots like you describe. I think they are caused by oils from our hands or that have accumulated in microfiber cloths.

I handle it very carefully, use fresh cotton gloves and if I do get fingerprints I reach for a new or recently washed cloth. I wash them separately with a little detergent and no softeners but still replace them frequently.

This has been less of a problem since Tru Vue improved the coating process a few years ago, but there is still a good bit of the older stuff in the supply chain.
 

Framar

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OK, here's a question for those of you who mention wearing cotton gloves when handling glass.

How do you manage that? When I try to grab a piece of glass when I am wearing cotton gloves the glass slides right out of my hands. (Picture Tom Cruise in socks sliding into view on the slick floor in Risky Business.)

I have tried those gloves that TruVue supplies - haven't had any in years but it seemed to me that they had no ability to grip and they left marks on the glass as well and were usually about three sizes too huge for my delicate paws anyway.
 
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Ylva

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I only use uv glass with 99% uv protection, so can’t claim to know about cleaning this particular glass.

I wear gloves when handling glass, cotton, or the other kind that TV provides here in the US.

Do you use a circular motion while cleaning?

Welcome to the G! No worries about doing anything wrong. You haven’t. Not much wrong to be done here. When something is posted in wrong section, we move it.
 

framah

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8,814
I never use gloves. I pretty much don't leave fingerprints unless I have just eaten an egg McMuffin.

As for cleaning, that you are using as little as possible is the opposite of how to do it. You need to sort of flood the glass. Using only a little bit is what makes it hard to clean all of the schmutz off the glass. Any hand oils need more rather than less cleaner.

So, try using MORE cleaner.

Also, no need to buy a Tru Vue specific cleaner. Glass Plus works fine.
 

Pat Murphey

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Joined
Nov 16, 2002
Messages
13,625
...I have tried those gloves that TruView supplies - haven't had any in years but it seemed to me that they had no ability to grip and they left marks on the glass as well and were usually about three sizes too huge for my delicate paws anyway.
Are you sure you're talking about the ones currently given away by TruVue? I found them to grip very well, protect well from cuts and I was able to use them over and over without leaving any marks or prints on the glass. The ones I used to use from LJ had to be changed regularly and the cotton ones were completely useless. I can sympathize about the size, TruVue's gloves are among the rare gloves that fit my big mitts.
 

Framar

WOW Framer
Joined
Jul 24, 2001
Messages
25,358
I have not tried TruVue's gloves recently. They were always way too huge for me, which made trying to wear them and handle glass a very hazardous situation.

I guess I'll just have to keep washing my hands a lot.
 

cjmst3k

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Apr 25, 2006
Messages
4,375
My framer uses those TV glass gloves. I don't like them. They seem to dry out and have a plasticy shell then. I love cotton gloves. I don't have big hands, and its never been an issue with the glass sliding. My framer does all the production now, but I was always cotton gloves all the way. Maybe just better grip strength? Or those gloves with rubber dots on them would help?
 
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