trimming the print.

Skippy the Bush Kangaroo

CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Joined
May 10, 2005
Posts
298
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Australian Bush
We know that altering the artwork is unacceptable, but what about the white edge. can this be trimmed. A recent limited edition print had a white edge of 3 inches yet the mat size was only 2 1/2 inches. Is it acceptable to trim the white edges? Limited Editions, open editions, and what about an original?
 
In theory you should never trim - in practice you occasionaly have to. I would never trim without the written permission of the customer - even then I would advise the customer that trimming could alter the future value of the piece. I would ask myself why it was printed with so much space - was it the artists intention to allow lots of space - some small prints / originals look great with masses of space around them.
 
Nope. Can't do it. Love to; can't. Designed too narrow a mat? Recut mat and reorder frame (hoping the long sides of the old frame can be trimmed to be the short sides of the new frame, so it will only cost two new rails) Customer doesn't have the right to OK, unless he is the artist. Not the mother of the artist. The artist. Sorry. Not here at Howard's.
 
This is a definate no no. If I need to crop artwork on paper, I alter the size of the mount.
 
When I was a SCUBA instructor, and carried a million dollars worth of liability insurance, I was advised that it is not possible for a student (re: customer) to sign away his or her right to sue. In other words, release forms have little value in court.

(That was 30 years ago when a million dollars was a lot of money.)
 
Limited editions and originals, no. Open editions to be dry mounted, yes (after trying to persuade the customer to go with a wider mat).
 
MEH summed it up best for me.

When it comes down to it, the art belongs to the customer and if they want to hire a truck to drive over it they can.

Now I won't alter anything original or limited but if it is open end edition, watch out here comes the blade.

I almost always try to go for a wider mat, besides design style it costs more for more mat more frame. Hey we're also a business.
 
A customer brought me a delightful little watercolor her son had done for her. It had a huge ground of white. I told her we don't trim these and gave her the reasons. She insisted that it was hers and said she definitely didn't want it that big. After much persuasive conversation, I failed to convince her to leave it.

You guessed it: her son was very upset that it was trimmed. To her credit, while she began our subsequent conversation trying to blame me, she finally took responsibility and said she'd never insist against my recommendations again.

Was I wrong to capitulate? It's a tough call, but I'd now probably not do it. Then again...
 
Whoa! OzDave, you sold a mat narrower than 4"? :eek:

Haven't you been following the threads this last year :D
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It has happened a few times that a customer insisted on a trimmed margin.

I handed a pair of scissors to him/her. Only once did someone (and not me) go ahead and trim.

edie the itaintworththerisk goddess
 
No way! I never trim and never will. Worked for a gallery once in Texas in the early to mid 80's. They sold a ton of s/n Dalhart Windberg prints, some quite valuable. They would write the orders and more times than not it would require that the white be cut, and I just wouldn't do it. It didn't feel right and I did not want to have that on my plate, ever. I finally talked to the people who wrote the orders for the customers and informed them that that was a really big no-no and not to do it...wonder whatever happened to those that had their pieces framed and then tried to resell them later thinking they had a real investment there, only to find the value was cut in half, at least.
 
If they really want it to be trimmed, no matter if it is a print or watercolor, I would recommend writing that info on your work order, stating what it is that they want to do, and then have them sigh it...and then also save that workorder...just in case. Sometimes if they see that you are really serious and put it in writing and they sign it, they will think twice about it and do it the right way, then they are heald responsible.
 
wonder whatever happened to those that had their pieces framed and then tried to resell them later thinking they had a real investment there, only to find the value was cut in half, at least.

If you buy a print for investment purposes and cut it, you get exactly what you deserve on the resale. It's hard to believe anybody is that stupid, but then the newspaper arrives.
 
There is no need for me to state my opinion. Especially since so many very knowledgable and experienced EXPERTS have done so allready.But I when has that ever stpped me before?LOL

The answer to a FRAMER distorting any work is a definet NO! The reasons have been listed here and in several threads previously.

Most importantly is that one of the best ways to check the authenticity of a work is to check it's measurements ,which are often listed on the work. So if they differ from what is recorded you have proven that the work is not in it's original state.Add to that, that as a trained professional you should know this and inform the client that they are deprciateing their work,and there by lossing MONEY.Telling them to Not do so can make you liable for the loss in value especially if you are the one who alters the work.

And as Ron's annalogy so correctly stated a mere disclaimer doesn't sign away their right to hold a trainned PROFESSIONAL liable for loss that they caused or instructed .

Now if the owner of a work ( not the purchaser ) but the one who holds the copy rights ( either registerd or infered) wishes to alter their own work that is up to them.However if some one does something to a work they own in their own dwellings it is very unlikely to be discovered until some one trys to buy it or inherits it and then I don't think I'd want my name on any written record of advise ( Disclaimer).

Besides as Baer so aptly pointed out why would you want to make the job smaller and less costly? Every class I ever atteneded showed ways to increase the profit on a given work not make it cheaper ( both in cost and apperaances).

But then I am not even a FRAMER anymore but the others who have agreed with me are among the MOST Knowledgable in the field .So your decision is easy as I see it,and with D A M N good reasons.
BUDDY
 
Should have just explained to the customer that they need a wider mat or "I'll have to cut your artwork. It's signed and numbered. You don't want me to cut it, do you? It'll devalue it!"
Then you sell a wider mat and make more money. Why are you designing 2.5" mats anyway? boo, hiss.
 
"Most importantly is that one of the best ways to check the authenticity of a work is to check it's measurements ,which are often listed on the work. So if they differ from what is recorded you have proven that the work is not in it's original state.Add to that, that as a trained professional you should know this and inform the client that they are deprciateing their work,and there by lossing MONEY.Telling them to Not do so can make you liable for the loss in value especially if you are the one who alters the work."

I am not and will never be an art expert. I am a framing expert. This is why I make every resonable effort to keep the work in it's origional condition in most cases. That way I don't have to worry about the value of the art.

But I must as if you suggest we should inform the client that simply framing and hanging the art depreciates the art? It does you know.

Carry on.
 
Michael's policy is to NOT trim ANY art, including kids art or posters. I have a friend who works at our local Michael's and that is their policy. However, I think that she does break policy with posters. If she were to get caught doing it, she would lose her job.
 
I guess you have point Jay and maybe that is why Hugh posted ,"Don't cut. There is no way you can be protected
against eventual litigation."and now Michael's must have discovered it also and are warnning their employees to prevent the same legal tangles.

I suppose framing and hanging is right in there among the things that will just as likely cause "LITIGATION" and professional framers should warn clients about those hazards right along with trimming and other such alterations.

What was I thinking when I made such an overstatement?I'll have to remember that I am no longer in the BIZ.
BUDDY
 
People can buy art but they don't own it, we as humans own it, art is a cultural treasure and needs to be treated as such. Now I know that sounds ridiculous when considering some of the art we see come over our counters, but trust me, that piece you are cutting or gluing down will be the one worth immeasurable wealth down the road. Sigh
 
Originally posted by preservator:
Don't cut. There is no way you can be protected
against eventual litigation.


Hugh
Actually, I tell customers that tell me it's OK to trim thier print to sign a waiver that says we are not liable because the customer agreed to it. That being said...I tell the customer that if they want it trimmed, they have to do it themselves.

We do this on anything that might be valuable.
 
Don't do it! I agree with handing them the scissors. I've not had anyone take me up on that though. I learned this the hard way. Trimmed the ratty edge of a Maxfield Parrish calendar that already had the calendar part cut off. Customer asked me to, then she later found out that trimming was a no-no and I had to replace it. Said I should have insisted it not be trimmed, and she was right. I did not have her sign a waiver. It was a very expensive lesson.
 
But then I am not even a FRAMER anymore
Sorry, Buddy, but I think we all disagree with you on this one. You will always, always be a framer, in the biz. at the moment or not.

Besides, you're a Hall of Framer at the G- so, hush. ;)

Re: trimming- noooooo. Baaaaad.. unless it's a Shrek or My Little Pony poster, or unless I own it.

kaffeetrinker_2.gif
 
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