Tough Times for everyone??

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PEAVY

CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Joined
Jul 27, 2002
Posts
313
Loc
Wichita Falls, TEXAS
OK. I think I am starting to sink into serious depression here.
Every customer for the last month who needs framing done, almost comes undone if they have to pay $50 for custom framing.

Today a customer came in with a 3'x2' charcoal drawing, badly mounted and wanted it framed with barnwood. ( barnwood is very popular around here.) I gave her several selections to choose from. She chose my least expensive molding. When I told her that the frame is $50 for a 3 x 2, she about had a heart attack and I had not even discusssed matting, glazing, labor and tax.

She finally caved in and let me put glazing on it and she insisted that I not charge her labor.

I didnt tell her that I will have to remount it, put a new backing on it and econospace...extra cost. I just charged her a flat $100 and siad I do what I can.
I am going to barely break even.

I also said that she is by no means obligated to use my services and to not feel pressured.
She just looked at me said that she "usually goes to her friends frame shop in town, but thought she would use me this time because I am cute."

This major resistance is what I am getting from just about every customer. What gives????????
Is anyone else feeling this pucker?
 
PEAVY said:
She just looked at me said that she "usually goes to her friends frame shop in town, but thought she would use me this time because I am cute."
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LOL. Well if she's cute, then give her the discount. If she's not then charge her full price. It's a two way street, isn't it?
 
These ARE tough times. Part of it we can blame on the media. Part of it is due to gas prices.

Part of it is due to what I call the HGTV Effect. You know. "Well, we will just spray glue this fabric to a piece of plywood and attach some furring strips to it, and spray paint the whole thing purple." Looks good on a small screen TV, but we who do this for a living know it couldn't pass the Three Feet Test. But it looks easy, so why on earth do we charge $100 for it?

And, for $100 in our shop she would get the barnwood and she would get the glass, but she wouldn't get the spacer and she might not get the remount. And the REALLY sad thing is: it would look just fine to her. Sigh.
 
Uh Peavy....................we need a picture to make a educated statement!!! :D

Yah feeling the pinch here...........sooooo ssssslllllooooowwwww hopefully my stitchery and cross stitch ladies will be in soon........almost fair time! :p
 
Every customer for the last month who needs framing done, almost comes undone if they have to pay $50 for custom framing.
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Don't lower the price, raise the VALUE of what your customers purchase! Tell them the price, then try to justify it by presenting your case and show how you create value through your service (ie, quality materials, top not craftsmenship, warrenty, etc)

Also, don't be such a push over!! Don't let people with the audacity to say something like "..but I'm not paying the labor!" modify your pricing. Tell them that if they don't want to pay the price you tell them, then you're sorry you can't help them
 
One question: Why are you giving them the breakdown (frame, mounting, labor, glazing, wire, etc)??

A restaurant doesn't tell them meat was $6.83, the rice was $2.01, the veggies $3.02, etc!

Try not using such itemizations and you should do better.
 
Paul N said:
One question: Why are you giving them the breakdown (frame, mounting, labor, glazing, wire, etc)??

A restaurant doesn't tell them meat was $6.83, the rice was $2.01, the veggies $3.02, etc!

Try not using such itemizations and you should do better.
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Please tell me how you do it!
 
Sounds like she got a good deal from you.

I often will have a hard time dealing with pricing issues. I am now telling my customers that "our prices are fair" in the course of the sale.

I found the "Little Red Book of Sales Answers". I highly recommend reading it. It is easy, too the point, and full of suggestions.

Cankdy
 
PEAVY said:
Please tell me how you do it!
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Before presenting the price, I review with them (their choices) what they are getting and then quote the total price. Sometimes if I think it is a tad more than they want to spend Ill quote it + tax. Most time I quote the total price including tax.

If they balk at the price, then I might tell the the difference between one chosen option and something less. (like UV glass versus reg ) In most cases if they are going to buy, they will pay the little difference.

Sometimes you have to take the design down somewhat. But when you are at the bottom and there is nowhere left to go, they just have to go. You can't exist by barely breaking even, that is not a reputation that you want to get around and it will.
 
PEAVY said:
Please tell me how you do it!
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I give the total price for the frame designed using the elements specified. This price comes from my POS (FrameReady). If the amount quoted is higher than what the customer wants to pay I then trim of some of the design elements or materials which have the most significant impact on price and the least impact on design or conservation, whichever is more important to the customer.

If you use a POS you have very little price argument compared to scratching things out on paper.

I never quote any individual element on a frame design unless it is very pricey and the moulding chosen is quite expensive. Sometimes the frame itself is as much as 2/3 the cost of a job and I quote the price of the frame itself in this instance to say that we could choose another less expensive moulding and cut the cost significantly.

Not changing the design and materials used in a job but lowering your price only undermines your price credibility.
 
Peavy... do you use Singleton mouldings?? Based in Texas.

They have some real nice barn wood mouldings that I use all the time on the local art here.

For a while there I was ordering 1,000 ft in the spring and have 3/4 of it gone by the fall.

I agree with the others. Do not give away your labor. That is your money. Tell them the total, make a suggestion of a lower priced frame and finally stick to the price and if they walk then they walk.

I think we all get them at times. What's more amazing are the ones who come in afterwards and just love the $61/ft moulding and end up spending over $400 on just the frame. Had that same scenario yesterday. One left without biting and the other dropped alot of money.

By the way... I'm swamped up here. I'm in here pretty much 7 days/week and often till 8 PM.

The printing side is helping also.:beer:
 
I feel ya'

Peavy,

You're not the only one who is getting depressed about the economic situation. I don't get as many people dickering about price (though some still do and they'll be cheap no matter what the times are like) but I have FAR FEWER customers coming in at all.

Even though I'm in the SF Bay Area, I'm in an area where a lot of people bought houses because they could just barely afford it(otherwise they would have never gotten one anywhere else in the county). Now foreclosures are all over the place and it's had a huge effect on my shop. All the other shops in the area have closed and now I'm the last one left and ultimately may not survive myself if things don't pick up soon. I would think that I'd get some of their business but so far it hasn't been enough to offset the decline in consumer spending overall.

And as hard as it is, especially now, don't discount your prices or labor. I know it's hard to do that when times are slow but people won't value what you do if you don't (not that you don't but they'll get the impression that you're a pushover and easy if you don't hold your ground and stand up for yourself and your prices). It's sets a bad precedent and from now on, she'll assume that she can get that price any time she comes back.

(Sorry, didn't mean to be it to be a downer post)
 
Tough times?

I'm not sure about the economy being in a full recession, and I realize that things are somewhat tough (Geographics play a big part of this equation)....but I think that working in retail is "somewhat always tough". I do think we live in stranger times than previously - that's for sure.

Definitely there are consumers with disposable income: Standing at the bar within a great Aisian restaurant last night, I overhear a discussion from folks adjacent to us about their daughter flying off to Tokyo for a vacation. (That takes some $).

Sarah and I picked out some lovely granite this afternoon at a retailer in Green Bay. Most of you know that these projects are $3-6K, and yet we were just one of four customers shopping seriously at the time. I did not hear one person ask for a discount? ;)

While we were gone a customer had visited our shop and questioned purchasing three giclees and having them framed - wanted to know if he had all three done, would their be a discount? Our staff was trained well enough to let him know that our pricing was fixed and that a volume discount wouldn't normally kick in until we were looking at 10+ of the identical size and selection. Why do they do this to us? I think Ellen may be somewhat on the right track here...

EllenAtHowards said:
....Part of it is due to what I call the HGTV Effect. You know. "Well, we will just spray glue this fabric to a piece of plywood and attach some furring strips to it, and spray paint the.....
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Our industry has always been plagued by a "you can have it done cheaper" element, and in these "tough" times, this might rear it's ugly head more often - many times in thanks to some of the television programing and Ygen mentality.

BTW - Only two designers on HGTV regularly use professional framers that I'm aware, Vern Yip and Candance Olson. :)

I really do believe that we need to use our creative juices to keep a business moving in the right direction anytime, and especially more so today. When I see new framers launching new businesses when they are light on experience, capitalization, a business plan, I get nervous for them.

kdub said:
...Now foreclosures are all over the place and it's had a huge effect on my shop. All the other shops in the area have closed and now I'm the last one left and ultimately may not survive myself if things don't pick up soon.
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kdub,

You've got me curious about your comments....

Examining your website, it looks like you have an attractive business. It looks like you do a good job in framing. It looks like you've got 18 years experience and stability should help.

What is the "Things" part of your business name? Have you difersified into other products? Has there been a change in the "image" of your mall location?

How large is your marketing budget as a percentage of your annual sales? Not trying to get personal, but it is a concern when an established business that looks as good as yours admits a major decline.

I know that in my backyard, we've got two new big boxes moving in within the next 9 months with framing departments. That's in addition to what is already here!


John
 
Peavy, my February and March were awful. I was so deep in the hole, I think I might have a speaking role in the new Journey to the Center of the Earth film. It was bleak, really bleak. Since then, things have been much better - a decent April, a strong March, a gangbusters June, and July is off to a respectable start (even with a holiday, which meant 5 days of zero revenue). Because of that, I'm finally out of the hole. Will it last? I don't know. But the same thing might be about to happen for you and others. I think you just have to get yourself out there to drum up business (I've been going to Chamber of Commerce mixers), and strengthen some relationships with complementary retailers (like photo stores). And be confident about what you do and what you charge. You have to pay rent, you have to eat. The customers that value your services are the ones you want to keep. The rest of them will just suck the life out of you, then find someone else to harass.
 
Our year was OK until June, which was terrible. July looks a lot better, but it will need to be really good to make up for June.
 
In May we got more of these jobs than normal. People trying to save money by bringing in ready mades for us to mat, glass only, mount only, etc. Not so much in the last month or so.

These things seem to run in cycles, spurts, waves.....no rhyme nor reason.

Hang in there Peavy. It will get better if there aren't massive bank failures as some are predicting.
 
I'm completely convinced that most price resistance is self induced. If your asking price is skewed from the perception of the shop there will be problems. It's easy to sell $100 framing if your joint looks like a million. If it looks like the five and dime then prepare for war.

I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions but the rule stands according to my experiances.

Carry on.
 
my $.02----

if you do NOT charge for the labor on this piece, why charge it for any other piece you have/will do???????????

if you do NOT charge for labor, why charge for anything else?????

if you do NOT charge for labor, why are you "in business"??????

in my mind---NO labor---means you get exactly what you pay for---the new frame and all the parts of the package---YOU(customer) get to provide the labor of de-mounting/remounting/assembly!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

would have to be a very COMPELLING reason for me to do the work gratis(such as it's my in-laws etc)
 
We're "up" in every catagory - gross sales, gross income, and net income.

When the economy gets bad, our restoration business increases. I guess since folks aren't traveling, they're spending what money they do have, repairing the things they live with every day.

And, what blows my mind is, when I quote the price, they just say, "OK. When can you have it finished?"

When I say 10-12 weeks. They say, "OK. Call me when it's ready."

Ooops - just looked at the clock! I gotta get to work!
 
B. Newman said:
We're "up" in every catagory - gross sales, gross income, and net income...
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Go get 'em Betty!

I think that month to month comparisons are a little poor for comparisons in a single store retail environment. Looking a the First and Second Quarters of 2008 in comparison to 2007 gives us a better picture.

In our shop the 1st Quarter was up 18% over 2007 in gross sales, while the 2nd Quarter was up 17% in gross sales.

Many factors can contribute towards people doing well and those not so well in "tough times".

Jay H said:
I'm completely convinced that most price resistance is self induced......It's easy to sell $100 framing if your joint looks like a million. If it looks like the five and dime then prepare for war....
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Jay is spot on with his observation that shop image is a major contributing factor. A few others....
  • Owner Management attitude (see number 2)
  • Financial flexibility (Cash Flow, line of credit, accounting procedures)
  • Local geographical Impact
  • Weak or poor Location
  • Existing Pricing structure producing lower profitability in "valleys".
  • Staffing Issues (Payroll too high)
  • No market plan or budget
  • No Diversification to business - alternative sales
  • No REAL uniqueness to business
  • Poor hours

John
 
I have a theory that supports that Betty. I believe that when things tighten up, people take better care of what they have. Why detail your car when you're going to buy another next year? Why paint your house or replace the windows when you're moving soon?

When people start believing they are going to have the same house or car for a few years, they take better care of it. I see dump neighborhoods around here looking better than I ever remember.
 
A couple weeks ago a young stockbroker came into our store. He wanted to frame up 4 old 'Fortune' magazines for his 'new' office. After some designing we came up with a wonderful 'of era' design using burl, handwrapped fabric mats and a matching fillet. He wanted the magazine kept intact and not just frame the cover. So it will require more materials and more labor. I came up with a price that for the 4, totaled 1500. Not bad value I figured. Apparently he didn't figure so, or so I thought. He left taking his magazines with him. I couldn't and wouldn't lower the price. It is a lot of hand work and a lot of labor involved. I told him I would keep the paperwork on file in case he changed his mind.
Less then a week later, I received a call from his boss, he said that the young man was so impressed with our service and conviction to quality and price that he, the boss, wanted to pay for the framing as a gift to the young stockbroker. What a surprise. This went from no sale to good PR and a nice sale. Just based on quality of service not price.
In the end things work out, I hope it continues to work out for not only our place but for all of you as well.
Keep those chins up.
(that is just one of many stories ;) )
 
I'm up too. I'm a young shop so my growth will probably seem a bit agressive. Still the growth, I think, is intentional. I'm not sitting around doing the same things all the time and hoping for a change. I'm adding lines, booting lines, doing this and doing that.

Still I'm up 64% ytd.

50.9 first quarter.
21.4 second quarter
and 544.8% for this month to date.

I just put a large deposit in this morning so I don't expect that number to hold long :)
 
Jay H said:
I'm completely convinced that most price resistance is self induced. If your asking price is skewed from the perception of the shop there will be problems. It's easy to sell $100 framing if your joint looks like a million. If it looks like the five and dime then prepare for war.

I'm sure there are plenty of exceptions but the rule stands according to my experiances.

Carry on.
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Well said, When I use to try to beat my competitors prices and had lower priced pieces of art in the shop, my customers expected lower prices.
When I decided to be a high end shop and "owned it", The customers quite fighting it so much.

We started by putting up Big Roma and Larson displays, more elaborate framing and carrying quality art. We stayed within our region as far as art, but still it all has a really good look. It is all about persecption!

Having a computer was the biggest change.... They don't question the price if it comes from a computer, they just decide if it is worth it to them. That's where the selling comes in!

Hang in there Peavy and believe in your product!! You are the one who gives it worth!

And don't discount too much, and if you have to give a discount, make the customer feel they are special to get!!

I give discounts sometimes to make them feel like they are special, but I never give away my work.
 
I talk to framers from all over the country every week and there are really some big differences in how well people are doing by area. It seems that the small towns are struggling the most. The entire mid-central part of the country has been hit so hard in the past 2 years. But, I'm guessing that once they start to rebuild and restore the fire and flood ravaged areas it could help some of those shops who are struggling.

My sister's home was hit by a tornado this year and she made a comment to me that I thought was pretty insightful. She said "oh well, it's good for the economy.....it will keep the construction companies and companies who supply building materials going, so at least someone wins in this mess." I thought it was an interesting and very positive way to look at it, given that she and her family was going through their own personal disaster.

I really wish the media would try to find something positive to report once in awhile. The doom and gloom is getting old. If they don't watch out their idea that only bad news sells is going to come back and kick them in their very negative behinds. People have already begun to tune out on the news. Mostly because they can't stand to listen to the constant negativity of it. One woman told me last week that the only time she turns on the news anymore is to listen to the weather reports so she knows how to dress her children.
 
The nice thing about some of these piddly jobs like cutting mats for readymades, etc., is that it shows that you are willing and able to work within the customer's budget and help the customer save money. For a service that is generally perceived as "expensive," that's a win. Customer comes in expecting snooty service and exorbitant prices, and is pleasantly surprised that you are happy to work with her to meet her needs at a reasonable price. These are great opportunities to bring in a little extra money, and to correct consumer perceptions.

Sure there will be consumers out there who still think $25 to have a mat cut while they wait is too much money, but odds are they aren't going to be making their purchase from anyone else, either.
 
Tough Times & Depression

This year has been rough for us as well. I've been moping around waiting for things to turn around. I was stressing out and not sleeping... No more! I'm the owner for crying out loud and I'm in charge. I had to give myself a swift kick in the rear. So, four weeks ago, I made an appointment with my CPA to get his perspective. If you're struggling, I would highly recommend this. A good CPA can crunch your numbers and offer you insight that can help you start to think in terms of solutions rather than problems. Turns out that our business is actually rock solid other than 1 line item... our lease. So, we've come up with a plan to address it and are putting that plan into action.

On the personal side I've taken up Muay Thai. I've had 5 networking appointments with other business owners in the area with 5 more for next week. Most importantly, I have a date night with my husband... I'll have to report on that in warped next week!

So, to make a long story short, I would encourage everyone to take action and create solutions rather than waiting to be rescued.
 
So said:
Pg.227 from Even Cowgirls Get the Blues, by Tom Robbins

"Be your own master!
"Be Your own Jesus!"
"Be your own flying saucer! Rescue Yourself.
"Be your own Valentine! Free the heart"
Sissy was very quiet......There was however, one more question on her mind and eventually she asked it. "you use the word freedom fairly regularly," she began. "Exactly what does freedom mean to you?'
The Chink's reply was swift. Why, the Freedom to play freely in the universe of course."


Thanks you all! For the empowering words. I am working on a few things now thanks to your comments!
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A customer of mine who used to own a frame shop nearby several years ago, probably 15-20 years ago, said that one day she had a customer question the 'high' price of the framing order, she wanted it for cheaper. She asked the customer to follow her a short distance. She opened the door to the workroom where several employees were at work. She said to the customer, 'Which one of these employees should I tell they won't receive any health insurance coverage this month if I lower my prices.' I was told this a few years ago but it was something to that effect.
 
I'm not happy to hear that everyone else is having a hard time too, but at least I know we're mostly in the same boat.

It's been really slow here the last couple months, and although I've tried more advertising, that doesn't seem to be helping. (That phone book ad is killing me too!) I just keep thinking that the economy always turns around, and I'm not starving at the moment. Fot the most part the shop is holding it's own, but there's nothing left over for me.
I'm working on putting some of the good ideas I see on here into action, but it always takes time for things to turn around. I just keeping remembering a t-shirt my dad used to have: "Don't let the turkeys get you down!"
 
somewhere in early february, all our commercial clients dropped off the face of the earth. talking to their designers, they were all just sitting on their hands, because not a lot of people are getting new offices etc, that they want to decorate.

and talking to our moulding reps/delivery guys from several companies, it seems that everyone, not just us, got a little bit slower.

but if some of you guys are doing good, it might just be slow here in the midwest....

but at least the commercial work is starting to come back.
 
Pangolin, this is only meant as food for thought and not said with any harsh intent. You wrote:

"I'm not happy to hear that everyone else is having a hard time too, but at least I know we're mostly in the same boat. "

In this short thread there were a good number of success stories: Betty, John, Jay, etc.

So, "everyone else" is not in the same boat. This is tough medicine that needs to be swallowed. Businesses have peaks and valleys and it is our job to navigate each situation.

The first lesson to draw from this thread, IMO, is to take a hard look at the business and determine what can be done better, differently, more profitably, etc. That is far better than believing something that is not true, i.e., that "everyone" is in a down cycle. That thinking almost guarantees inaction.

One great value of the Grumble is it helps us out of the mental quagmire we sometimes get ourselves in, as in believing that everyone is at the same stage.

Take the ideas from those who are in an "up" cycle and run with them.

Good luck.
 
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PEAVY said:
She finally caved in and let me put glazing on it and she insisted that I not charge her labor.
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Peavy, What are you thinking!!?? You do need to take a paycheck home at the end of the week. She shouldn't be dictating your prices. Since you're not able to charge labor, the next time you go to the garage to have brakes put on your car, just insist that the mechanic NOT charge you the going rate because you don't want to pay any labor. Do you think that you would get away with it? Our business isn't any different.....and I think it's incredibly nervy for her to expect you to work for nothing.

PEAVY said:
I didnt tell her that I will have to remount it, put a new backing on it and econospace...extra cost. I just charged her a flat $100 and siad I do what I can. I am going to barely break even.
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Why didn't you tell her? I'll be the first to admit that I'm doing some creative pricing to get customers in these times, but you gotta do better than break even if you want to keep the doors open.
 
Lizzy said:
somewhere in early february, all our commercial clients dropped off the face of the earth. talking to their designers, they were all just sitting on their hands, because not a lot of people are getting new offices etc, that they want to decorate.

Lizzy, Exactly the same here. While my product is acrylic display cases. My commercial customers fell off quite a bit and they're the ones who spend the money. Actually my year was good up until June when it nose dived. June of last year was great.
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Maryann said:
Peavy, What are you thinking!!?? You do need to take a paycheck home at the end of the week. She shouldn't be dictating your prices. Since you're not able to charge labor, the next time you go to the garage to have brakes put on your car, just insist that the mechanic NOT charge you the going rate because you don't want to pay any labor. Do you think that you would get away with it? Our business isn't any different.....and I think it's incredibly nervy for her to expect you to work for nothing.



Why didn't you tell her? I'll be the first to admit that I'm doing some creative pricing to get customers in these times, but you gotta do better than break even if you want to keep the doors open.
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Here is the Deal... I sold my previous business and disolved the framing bus. a number of years ago, then Had a baby, and now after three years I am launching a new frame shop.
In the mean time another frame shop has stepped in and taken over. The word on the street is that this particular frame shop needs the competition as they have been known to kill the customer with their pricing, they take Weeks to finish a job, and they do not have a very reputable bedside manner. Sooo, I think that this woman was a spy, that is my gut feeling.

But though she insisted that I not charge her labor, I still did. But here is the kicker...
She said " well...do as little as possible, keep it under $100." My response is... " I will do what I can for $100." Then I took her money.

Now, I am debating... Do a killer job on her piece so that when she does take the final product to her friends down the street, they will think "Hey, she does a really great job and she undercut us.!" Or give her what she paid for and let her talk bad about my services around town. Mind you, this is a very small town.

I can give this frame shop a real run for their money, and I have done so before.

The responses to this post have been very affirming and educational as I jump back in to the business with my boots and hat on.

I do not intend on ever giving my labor away, not even to my mother!( who has balked too)
 
I'm sorry to here that there are some shops having a difficult time right now. I am one of the ones that are doing good. After last year I thought this year would be worse. However my business has almost tripled over the last 4 months. I was really worried that maybe this wasn't going to work for a retirement gig for a while there.
We operate strictly on word of mouth, I don't even have a store sign! No advertising other then the flyer that my landlord lets us put in the bags. We usually give him 200 every 4 months or so. I think the main reason our business is picking up is due to the fact that my shop sells itself. We are a true Mom & Pop, I am sure most of you would scream upon entering my shop. My 4 yo daughter spends all day here with mom, there are My little pet Shop animals every where, not to mention other toys. Cartoons are on almost all day. I had a lady sit down after placing an order and watch Dora the other day? Kenna (daughter) greets everyone at the door and offers them a cold drink (soda or water). I have had customers come back in just to say hello to her and end up placing another order (shes gonna be a great saleswoman). But my shop has become a hang out of sorts, on race day people will come in to watch the race, major happenings, they stop in on thier way home to find out whats going on. This has led to a comfort level that makes customer want to come back.
The big plus is I cater to the Military (75% of my customers). They get my full attention. I give them what they want. Its gotten to the point where some units will call and place an order and just say "take care of it we trust you, this is how much we can spend".
Forget about the other stores and sell yourself, make it personal to them.
 
I've been having similar thoughts. I love teaching framing, but I really miss being in retail. I also think this is a great time to get into framing, or at least to be ready to get into it.

There's less competition now, and IMO, the chain stores have become somewhat vulnerable thanks to a new level of consumerism. The public is recognizing that if it's always on sale, it's not really on sale. They want real value, and I think that's where opportunity exists.

Once the real estate market turns around, there's going to be huge a boom in demand for furniture and accessories. Being positioned to take advantage of this is the key. Being able to tread water, if that's what it takes to be viable, is important for now.

I've noticed that people entering the business today want to know how to sell, market, advertise and manage. Just a few years ago people would enter the business believeing all they needed to do was buy equipment and learn technical skills. In some cases that's all that was need. Not today.

Now, the opportunities are for people who not only recognize that framing is a business, but that it's a sales business.
 
Lizzy said:
somewhere in early february, all our commercial clients dropped off the face of the earth. talking to their designers, they were all just sitting on their hands, because not a lot of people are getting new offices etc, that they want to decorate.
nd talking to our moulding reps/delivery guys from several companies, it seems that everyone, not just us, got a little bit slower.
but if some of you guys are doing good, it might just be slow here in the midwest....
but at least the commercial work is starting to come back.
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I typically do about 40 percent commercial, and 60 percent retail.
2006 was my best year in 26 years of business.

2007 was off 20 percent, mainly because of a weak commercial year. I just didn't get many large commercial jobs.

2008 is back up to 2006 numbers, because my commercial business is booming.
I just picked up a 200 picture job, which is due the first week of August.

It always seems to be a bit of roller coaster in this business.
Just when you think you have it figured out, something happens, and you say "wow, I didn't see that coming". :D
 
In a neighboring town, there are (or were) two galleries within a block of each other. She agressively undercut her neighbor's prices. She was busy, he was not so busy. He diversified into specialty services. Four years later, she has folded and he is still in business. The competition was such an obsession for her that she wasnt realizing that she was not making a profit.
 
nikfrz said:
In a neighboring town, there are (or were) two galleries within a block of each other. She agressively undercut her neighbor's prices. She was busy, he was not so busy. He diversified into specialty services. Four years later, she has folded and he is still in business. The competition was such an obsession for her that she wasnt realizing that she was not making a profit.
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Great life lesson, great business lesson.

People who teach business classes should include this story in their lesson plan!
 
Doug Gemmell said:
Great life lesson, great business lesson.

People who teach business classes should include this story in their lesson plan!
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No offense Doug, but what lesson did you take from that post?

I believe we'd have to make a number of major leaps to draw any conclusions from the bare few facts that were presented. Any good instructor would certainly want to know a whole lot more before presenting it as a lesson, much less a "great lesson of life and business."

One shop is still in business and the other is not--that's all we really know. Those are the only facts we were given.

The rest was subjective, with the wording even hinting at a bias on the part of the poster, Nikfrz. He might possibly be the owner of the second business for all we know.

There's a lot of missing information and unanswered questions: We don't know what the second business did in the way of "diversifying." And we surely don't know why the first is no longer in business. Perhaps the first owner got rich and retired; or was overworked and croaked. Or, as you suggested, the plan failed. We just dont know.

Discounting, or not discounting; diversifying, or not diversifying does not determine success IMO. Instead, I believe it's the suitablility of the plan, and its exectution that determines success. There are discount shops that are succesfull and there shops offering "diversifed specialty services," however that's defined, that are not successful.

If you still see a lesson here, feel welcome to try to convince me.
 
I'm certainly no expert on business or teaching Paul. I defer to your expertise and this response is not to "try to convince you".

One simple lesson I see in this is don't worry about beating the other guy on price. Seems this person got so caught up in what the competitor was doing that she lost sight on being successful. She was busy, but as nikfrz stated, she wasn't making a profit.

It is irrelevant what the other shop did to diversify. I don't care if they diversified into hand crafted swizzle sticks or rolex watches as long as they find something that they can make a decent profit from. Intelligent diversification is a good idea in this business climate.

To summarize, these are some of the points one could take from this story.

be profitable
stay focused on your own business
diversify intelligently
be profitable

But I agree with everything else you said.

Sorry if I oversimplified but I like simple.
 
Ok.
I have slept on it. This is what I am going to do.....
The best job I know how to do and then explain to the customer that typically this would been a xxx$ amount, but because I am trying to get started back up here, you got a one time deal. If you like the work that I have done and you choose to continue to use my services, I would be delighted to work with you, but I have to charge you what I charge everyone else. Thank you kindly for your business!


Yes! Yes! keep it profitable and absolutely "just mind your own business!" right Doug?!
Thanks for all the great input and insight!
 
surferbill said:
I typically do about 40 percent commercial, and 60 percent retail.
2006 was my best year in 26 years of business.

2007 was off 20 percent, mainly because of a weak commercial year. I just didn't get many large commercial jobs.

2008 is back up to 2006 numbers, because my commercial business is booming.
I just picked up a 200 picture job, which is due the first week of August.

It always seems to be a bit of roller coaster in this business.
Just when you think you have it figured out, something happens, and you say "wow, I didn't see that coming". :D
Click to expand...

Bill, this is great! What is your marketing approach to bring in the commercial framing?
 
Professionalism...

PEAVY said:
....This is what I am going to do.....
The best job I know how to do and then explain to the customer that typically this would been a xxx$ amount, but because I am trying to get started.................................................Thank you kindly for your business!
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Peavy,

Well thought out....perfectly stated; you'll do just fine!

John
 
PEAVY said:
OK.
She finally caved in and let me put glazing on it and she insisted that I not charge her labor.

This major resistance is what I am getting from just about every customer. What gives????????
Is anyone else feeling this pucker?
Click to expand...

What the heck????? Don't charge for labor???? That's what we sell, our labor. I would have laid it out for her very clearly, so she would be able to understand that is how we earn our living.

You must be putting on an awfully hungry look for someone to say that to you. That completely blows me away. Does this mean I can go to an ice cream shop and insist they don't charge me for ice cream. How about a car dealer, do I now get a free car because I insist?

NEVER give the impression you will do anything, even work for free, just to get an order. That is just nuts. I would rather spend the time reading or something, anything, than work for free.

You are also having your customers set your prices for you, what are you doing?????

Your projecting the wrong image. Keep it up and you won't have a business for very much longer.

I'm sorry if I have repeated some previous posts. I read the first one and lost my cool, without reading the thread.

John
 
OK, I'm a little calmer now, I almost had a heart attack over this one.

Go to the library and check out three "fun" books on selling, the kind with cartoon illustrations and such. Stay away from the text book approach.

Do not get one or two, this works with three, not four. Read all three books, that's it, just read them. Do not try to memorize them, there will not be a test.

There are specific principals involved in salesmanship. They are simple and easy to comprehend. By just reading through all three books, you will soon find yourself getting a whole lot more sales closed. This has nothing to do with manipulating your customers, or talking them into something they do not want.

Please do this simple thing, and get to keep your business.

A last thought.....Len Aaron, founder of Aaron Brothers told me this years ago: "Any idiot can give it away."

John
 
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