Torah Scroll

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Framar

Framar

WOW Framer
Joined
Jul 24, 2001
Posts
26,421
Loc
Buffalo, New York, USA/Fort Erie, Ontario, Canada
I am working with a portion of a very old Torah Scroll (only 50") and bits and pieces of other rescued Judaic items that will be displayed in a very large 3/16" 20x24x14 OP3 box for a table top. A plain LJ black frame will surround this just to finish it off.

The customer would like me to be able to unroll the scroll a bit to reveal the writing but the parchment is very thick and has been rolled for many decades. I had a great idea to make acrylic "cradles" for the rolled part and then bend the edges over to hold the edge of the scroll open but the scroll is way too strong for the acrylic. So far everything just pops apart - and that is not what we mean when we say we want the art to pop.

I am setting this up in the customer's house on Saturday so I need some ideas on how to "relax" the parchment.

HELP!!!!!
 
Framar said:
I am setting this up in the customer's house on Saturday so I need some ideas on how to "relax" the parchment.

HELP!!!!!
Click to expand...

A nice merlot and a Barry White cd would be good to start with. ...it always "relaxes" the ladies...

;)
 
First, do no harm.
Sorry Mar, no kwick fix.
 
OK - I know there is no kwick fix - but maybe if I shaped a larger piece of acrylic (side view picture the letter "J" with the top bent over to hold the edge open and the bottom of the "J" a little more rounded over) (totally tubular!) - the scroll could just slide in and out but would be held to the desired shape.

The scroll is so lumpy and misshapen now I don't think there would be a problem with it sticking to the acrylic.

Hmmmmm.......
 
What if you buy another Torah and use some writing displayed from the purchased Torah? I've done this when the Torah was too tightly rolled or damaged, and the parents wanted to show the versus read during the bar/bat mitzvah. Contact the temple and they will tell you which store in town to buy one in.
 
Are there handles of some kind on the end of the scroll? If so, it could be rolled apart a bit, then the rolls could be held in place with Melinex straps or Attach-EZ straps.

To relax it a bit, could it be left rolled open for a couple days on a spare work table?
 
Since it is only a portion of a scroll and not the whole document there are no handles - I believe these two segments, sewn together with sinew of some sort, were sewn to other pieces, in other words, these segments are from the center of the Torah. I wish it had handles (or handles could be attached like that one Fred did in PFM? or DECOR? a while back) but it is not an intact Torah. I showed that article to my customer but she didn't want handles.

I like your idea Terry, but my customer is more interested in the antiquity of her items and doesn't want to introduce anything "new" into the box - I suggested perhaps a small handwritten note or an engraved plate to delineate where all of the items had been found but she decided against it

I have had it partially unrolled and weighted for several days and it is like a spring. Take off the weights and !!!Boing!!!

Oy vey! I am learning a lot on this project - like the bending of acrylic using a heat gun and slumping it over cardboard tubes. Fun!!!
 
You could try steaming it, a high humidity environment will let parchment relax. Discussing this with the local Rabi might give you a few more clues. He will probably say, never steam a Torah Scroll, I do not know, I do know I would run it by him. Another way would be to wrap it in dampened white blotter paper, then wrap it in Saran wrap to keep it from drying out. This, or the steam, will enable you to unroll a little of it without cracking it. It would be good to try and find a piece of old parchment to test a few things on. I'm thinking as I go here. Try calling a conservator, get some more input there, if you can. If you go to dampening or high humidity solutions, You will have to position it, then let it dry completely before sealing it up in a box frame. while in a damp condition, parchment will want to roll up even tighter, your going to have to let it dry under dry blotter paper and even weight. This usually takes about a week. Talk to a Rabi!

John
 
Wow, John, all this time if it had been at my house instead of my shop - the humidity in my house runs about 60-70% most of the year. I take stuff to the shop to dry out!

I know the curator of a local Judaica museum - I will try to contact him tomorrow - I have a feeling this whole project is going to be a "work in progress" and several trips will have to be made to my customer's abode before everything is on display exactly the way we both envision it.

I will take lots of photos!!!

Thanks everyone for helping me get my brain in gear.
 
There's no Talmudic law against steaming a Torah, otherwise you wouldn't have so many of my fellow Jews living in Florida.
 
I'm a old Goya, how should I know of such things? I am just going on my experience mounting old parchment diplomas. I have always tried to respect all religions, in the belief that there is only one God, and whatever path you take, it will take you there. Also, I don't think it is a good thing giving advise related to religious objects when you don't know all that much about that particular religion. I did advise to speak to a Rabi, several times, my not wanting to get in any more trouble with God and all. I've got enough explaining to do as it is now, don't want to add to it as old as I am. Getting close to that day.

John
 
Repeat after me:

This is beyond my level of expertise. You need to consult a conservator. After it has received the proper treatment, I will frame the results.

WE ARE FRAMERS; WE ARE NOT GENIES WHO CAN GRANT THE (unreasonable) WISHES OF CLIENTS.
 
Might I suggest a curved sheet of acrylic (bowl shape) as a support form and 2 round rods of acrylic to hold the scroll open. Additional pieces of acrylic can be attached to the over sized bowl edges to form brackets in which the rods can be secured. If the humidity treatment is not enough to relax the goat skin a conservator can be enlisted to install the scroll into the mount support.


For those who do not know, this sounds like a portion of a scroll that was rescued from Czechoslovakia after WWII and is considered a memorial of the holocaust.
 
I will make some phone calls today, see if I can reach that Judaica conservator or failing that, a Rabbi, and in the mean time experiment with shaping acrylic into a suitable holder. There will only be 8-10" of the sroll that will be unrolled so I am thinking a sturdier piece of acrylic (instead of the original 2, two inch wide pieces), will work.

Thanks, everyone!
 
Just a quick thought....can you use two acrylic rods to support the scroll (with the rods being longer than the scroll is wide) and having the rods attached to your backing with a "cup hook like" devices. My sleepy mind is telling me that covering more surface area of the scroll you are trying to keep flat the better.
 
JRB said:
I'm a old Goya, how should I know of such things? I am just going on my experience mounting old parchment diplomas. I have always tried to respect all religions, in the belief that there is only one God, and whatever path you take, it will take you there. Also, I don't think it is a good thing giving advise related to religious objects when you don't know all that much about that particular religion. I did advise to speak to a Rabi, several times, my not wanting to get in any more trouble with God and all. I've got enough explaining to do as it is now, don't want to add to it as old as I am. Getting close to that day.

John
Click to expand...

An old Goya is a painting, like Unclothed Maja. You're an old Goy.

And actually, since this is a fragment from a Torah scroll, and not the entire scroll, I wonder whether the proper treatment for it is burial (which is what Jewish law requires when "retiring" a Torah scroll). A rabbi would definitely be able to advise on that. As to how to unfurl it so it stays unfurled, that's a job for a conservator.
 
Framar said:
So, Paul, you are saying that steaming a Torah is not a meshuggeneh idea???
Click to expand...

You're asking that question to the guy who added a silent prayer to my bar mitzvah ceremony:

"Please don't let me drop this Torah, please don't let me drop this Torah"
 
Framar said:
So, Paul, you are saying that steaming a Torah is not a meshuggeneh idea???
Click to expand...
Just because there is no specific law against something doesn't mean it's not a meshuggeneh idea! (You can quote me on that!:icon11:)
I happen to know that PaulSF is a very learned scholar and wise sage, so please follow his sage advice:
PaulSF said:
...actually, since this is a fragment from a Torah scroll, and not the entire scroll, I wonder whether the proper treatment for it is burial (which is what Jewish law requires when "retiring" a Torah scroll). A rabbi would definitely be able to advise on that. As to how to unfurl it so it stays unfurled, that's a job for a conservator.
Click to expand...

:cool: Rick
 
I feel so humiliated, I got "Goy" wrong, especially after those years living with a very pretty JDL fund raiser. I'll just use age as an excuse.

John
 
Well the whole project is on hold because the acrylic box has a crack in it - UPS will be in to ascertain the damage tomorrow. *sigh* New box coming from California next week. I am going to set up the whole tableau at the customer's house anyways because she is expecting a guest who wants to see everything - everyone will just have to make believe they are seeing a box.

Turns out that rebending and re-forming the holders I had already made did the trick - about 5" of the scroll's lettering is now visible and so I am remaking these holders (now that I know what size and shape to make them) in a slightly thicker stock that is non-glare to lessen the visual effect.

Everything is going to look really wonderful once all items are in place against black fabric.
 
JRB said:
I feel so humiliated, I got "Goy" wrong, especially after those years living with a very pretty JDL fund raiser. I'll just use age as an excuse.

John
Click to expand...

For a Gentile to feel so bad about getting "goy" wrong, that's very Jewish!
 
I don't know what " Verklempt " means, I am positive I can't pronounce it either.

John
 
Tim Hayes. said:
What Ellen said - end of story !!!!!

If ya ain't a conservator don't try and play one in your frame shop !!!!
Click to expand...

This is one of those," in a perfect world," notions. Many framers who have a lower volume shop and have more free time on their hands, will take the time to try those things. All you can do is hope they will research the subject before they start any restoration or repair project. I know I sure did when I was younger. I became proficient at relining paintings, in painting, repairing compo frames, treating canvas and paper for mold, removing photos stuck to glass, mounting parchment, and a few more things that I can't recall right now.

I also took the time to even learn a few framing skills, authentic French mats, the old fashion way, watercolors, ruling pen lines, etc.

I mostly avoid those things now, mainly because of the time involved, and the deep pocket factor.

It was fun learning about and actually doing these things, I can't condemn a young framer for trying everything that may catch their fancy. I think it is just part of what we do, and is part of our learning process.

I would prefer that they send risky things off to a conservator and do their experimentations on items they find in thrift store and garage sales, until they become proficient before taking on customers property.

I should add that they NEVER do anything that cannot be undone, such as using white glue to patch an oil painting. Use bees wax as an adhesive. Befriend a conservator by sending them work, then pick their brains.

John
 
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