To Mount or not to mount

Create a Post
5th corner

5th corner

CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
Joined
Aug 23, 2005
Posts
303
Loc
Australia
This is always a hard decision as images always look better mounted.

Obviously original drawing/paintings etc should not be mounted.

What about limited edition photos or original tourist art that is not worth a lot?

And if ok to mount what should be mounted on? Sticky foam board; dibond; acrylic; etc?

Are there any rules and can mounting be classified as archival? I have been told the optically clear face mounting film is acid free but find any adhesive hard to beleive is not acidic and even if not acidic is probably irreversable??

Maybe there is a conservator in the ranks that can comment on what is the correct practice and why.
 
I think they are meaning mounting, as in dry-mounting or the like.

There have been LOTS of threads here about mounting, and when to do it. Read the archives, unless you have something spacific to ask about, otherwise you will get too many different answers. And that will just confuses you.
 
Susan May said:
I think they are meaning mounting, as in dry-mounting or the like.

There have been LOTS of threads here about mounting, and when to do it. Read the archives, unless you have something spacific to ask about, otherwise you will get too many different answers. And that will just confuses you.
Click to expand...

Ok In last week we have got a football limited edition print from a southern state 60 of 300, value of which I don't know but clearly of some value, and today we got an oil painting on paper signed front and back I think 60 Euro.

Both are to be straight framed and both would look better dry mounted.

I will look at archives when I have time but just thought there might be some accepted rules or obvious to dos or not to dos that were accepted as common for this sort of art and this sort of framing.

And yes glass will either be spaced or between frames so that is not in question.

For example the limited poster or a photograph often signed I have heard in the past depending on who you talk to that mounting devalues it and others would say its value improves. Both can't be correct unless there is a correct substraight and one that is not? i.e. sticky foamboard vs wet mounting to MDF. You just wouldn't mount to Medium Density Fiberboard. Foamboard is probably better but probably not correct either as will become acidic in time right.........hence that leaves Dibond(metal covered plastic) or plain acrylic.............which maybe stable and non acidic if using face mount adhesive but what of the value of the item is it improved or devalued?...........Does the photographer or the publisher determine this or is there another way of knowing?

There must be some standard and correct method?
 
Here is our policy on permanently mounting art of any sort.

1. If I spoil it, how will I replace it? This prevents mounting anything foreign, out-of-print, or one-of-a-kind

2. Could it end up collectible? This is a little trickier. This probably allows drymounting the Disney's Ice Age poster, but which poster bought at the mall this year will end up being an original Star Wars poster, or Beatles concert souvenier originally free or darn cheap but later much sought after?

3. Is there no other hope for it? The cat clawed it into pieces, but they still love it anyway, I would consider some sort of wet mount, kind of like sticking down a puzzle.

So mainly, we don't do permanent mounting. Occasionally the customer will insist, even after education by the frame staff, and depending on my mood and reading of the customer, I may bend my rules. But not often.
 
What are you REALLY concerned about??? ........

From your join date, it appears that you have been on this forum since 2005. You should have some idea by now of which methods are widely acceptable and which are the very worst to use if nothing else. You should also have some feeling for what you believe is the right thing to do in certain cases, ie., mounting news articles for grand openings of new businesses, stock photos of the family dog, vs. collectible items such as old baseball cards, stone lithographs, most original art, and such.

Bottom line in my mind is, dig around in the archives and run some specific searches for threads and posts that pertain to your specific questions on mounting. Pay particular attention to threads and posts by those members whose opinions you trust, and use some basic common sense before you mount.

Remember, most drymounting is, to one degree or another, irreversible no matter what the advertising hype says to the contrary. It may work fine for a fiberboard backed noncollectible movie poster but may not work for a delicate rice paper mounted glyph name that your customer had done at an art show or special event. And you may have to deal with adhesive residue or discoloring or staining or other side effects of the drymounting or wet mounting process if the customer becomes more picky after the fact. I spent almost 12 years on this framing forum and about 20 years as a continuing student of professional picture framing, I had so much more to learn before I considered myself an "expert" in the field but I did come away with one or two valuable hints and tips the value of which others may or may not share an opinion. As another poster to this thread has said so many times in the past, "take what you need and leave the rest" and that is some very good advice.
 
If you can replace exactly........... drymount it....... if you cant........ dont.
 
First, yes... there are standards. Go to a convention and take a few classes. Hugh Phibbs teaches a wonderful class on museum mounting, and Jim Miller teaches a class on shadow box mounting. Just to mention two very different type of protective mounting classes.

Second, I was a framer for 18 years, and in the craft industry for over 28 years... (they overlapped) I don't think I EVER found a good use for MDF board in framing. The stuff is just nasty, and heavy. If I was going to mount a customer's artwork on a backing, it would either be Art Care foam core, Rag mat, or coroplast (covered in either washed fabric, or rag mat.) Think like a Doctor, do no harm.

Not all things need to be mounted flat, and in some cases the warp is natural to the art. Some watercolor paintings have a bit of a wobble to the paper, and if you tried to flaten it, you might damage the painting.

Like Ellen, I always would look at the art, and ask myself, can this be replaced... out of MY pocket... easily. If the answer was no, then the mounting technique became more important. Japanese hinging, wheat paste dots, mylar pockets, corners made from 2 ply rag, windows, or any other preservation technique that fit the art. However, if the art was a poster that was going to hang in the kids room, and I could order another because it was an open edition, then I would drymount the poster on Acid free foam core... IF that is what the cutomer wanted.

Third... sticky board. Throw it out. It's not worth damaging anyones artwork to use it. Talk about acid and non-removable. Nasty stuff.

Both of the pieces you mentioned are things that I would not mount by drymounting. I would probably mat and hinge both of them. (But as I can't see the painting, I am not sure of the technique to use. But I would never dry mount an oil painting.)
 
Does mounting devalue the piece

Tom Reigle said:
From your join date, it appears that you have been on this forum since 2005. You should have some idea by now of which methods are widely acceptable and which are the very worst to use if nothing else. You should also have some feeling for what you believe is the right thing to do in certain cases, ie., mounting news articles for grand openings of new businesses, stock photos of the family dog, vs. collectible items such as old baseball cards, stone lithographs, most original art, and such.
Click to expand...

Ok Lets forget about the painting for now. It is an odd ball anyway being oil on paper.

Yes I do have very specific ideas on what to do and not to do and am probably one of the fussiest framers around and feel a responsability to do the best thing by the customer and the art. Our commission is to help the public protect the largest private collection of art and culture in the world. That is a big responsablity and an honer and not to be taken lightly.

Sometimes it is not easy to decide what to do as customers have specific ideas and budget is usually allways a concern. We try and educate but somethimes they want to do something other than how it should be done.

The reason for my question is there are just some jobs that you always struggle with knowing 100% that you are doing the correct thing. Take for example the limited football poster. It really would look better mounted as it is thick paper and will always have waves in it. They are never flat packed and come in tubes and have been handled by the customers. Obviously there are many types of substraits to use some better than others and some you shouldn't use. Chances of messing this piece up in the press or rollers is very small.

Customer wants to straight frame it with no mat. Obviously price and size is a factor for where they want to hang it. And obviously not best solution but that is what they want to do. So in this instance there is some serious thought required as to mount or not to mount.

It is acceptable practice to mount to metal or plastic and some photographers Peter Lik is one that comes to mind partakes of such (not sure if he uses these substraits but he does mount). I guess he chooses to mount his limited work because it would not look good unmounted. I don't know maybe there are other reasons but the ones I have seen have been mounted.

Thinking hard about what I am trying to ask is more about end value of the piece than the mounting even though that is part of the equasion and I don't think you can separate them. Maybe the thread should have been called does mounting devalue the piece.

I guess I complicated it because I was interested in what other thought about the mounting process. I wish there were some standards that all framers adheared to. Block mounting asside there are a few out there that still mounting works of value to MDF and don't think too much about it. This is not good for the industry.

In this instance I have gone to the trouble to ask the supplier of the print thier advice on what their recommended mounting/framing method is and they did not have a ready answer. They promised to get back to me. It will be interesting to see what their answer is.

At the end of the day if I can not get a satifactory answer from print supplier I will probably hinge over Artcare foam and space glass. Print will have waves and will tell customer to see how they go with it. If they can't live with it then may consider mounting to metal or plastic of which I am not sure. Maybe they are both equal. And also having a further conversation with customer about their understanding of the possability of the value being less.
 
As FramerDave eluded in post #2, "mounting" refers to all kinds of attachment inside the frame. Some mounting techniques are more durable, more reversible, more permanent, more risky, more costly, more labor-intensive than others. The best strategy, IMHO, is to become proficient with all kinds of mounting, acquire the equipment for as many techniques as you can, and work with full knowledge of what you are doing. Generally, use the least-risky methods and avoid permanent changes to items of value. Never experiment on customers' property.

Every framer decides his/her own policy on mounting. Some framers dry mount everything unless there is a reason not to, just because that technique is generally effective and well within their comfort zone. Personally, I prefer to use the least-invasive, most reversible mounting technique that will hold the art securely. These days, most items in my shop are mounted using no adhesives in direct contact. Edge supports and platform mounting are my favorite techniques for paper items in good condition.

If you must use a permanent mounting method on a porous-surfaced item, wet-mounting under vacuum is still the most durable and cheapest method. Dry mounting is probably easier and almost as durable, if done properly. Pressure-sensitive adhesives are less durable, and spray adhesives are the least durable and most costly. It is a curious fact that generally, the best mounting methods use the cheapest materials, and the worst methods use the most expensive materials.

The choice of substrate is also important. 100% cotton paperboard, 4-ply, 8-ply, or more ply is suitable for most mounting methods, cost-effective, durable, non-invasive, and easy to work with. If you have a vacuum press, you can use starch paste to laminate as many 4-ply layers as necessary for the size and rigidity required. Virgin alpha cellulose matboard is next-best; still suitable for all levels of preservation, and costs less. Warping is a problem if too much moisture penetrates one side. You can use fluted polypropylene to reinforce a single 4-ply mounting board, which provides good rigidity, warp-resistance, and low cost.

Foam board is cheaper, more commonly used, more resistant to warping, and suitable for most retail framing. However, conservators still hesitate to recommend it, due to concerns of the expanded polystyrene core's chemistry.

PVC sheeting, such as Sintra brand, is smooth, warp-resistant, easy to work with, and suitable for decorative-only framing. Trouble is, it is cemically invasive, especially in the event of elevated temperatures or humidity. It reacts badly to heat, so dry mounting is out of the question. And it is non-porous, so most water-based adhesives will not stick to it.

Aluminum composite material (ACM), such as DiBond and ePanel, is an excellent substrate for dry mounting. Its downside is that most framers do not have a Fletcher FSC or KeenCut machine to cut ACM with clean, rounded edges.

Wood and wood-composite boards, such as MDF, hardboard, plywood, and particle board have no applications in my shop.
 
When an artist such as Peter Lik mount their work that mount becomes one with the art. There is a difference of who desides to permanently mounts that work.
Also the print supplier is not the framer. I would caution their advise as to permanently mounting.
We are the framer, not the customer. It is up to us to be professional or not, we deside.
Educate the customer so that they can make an informed decision to be proud of.
 
I guess in short, we have standards, but not all framers are educated enough to follow them. Any CPF can tell you the standards, but each framer chooses when to follow the rules, and when to glue the sucker down, and call it framed.

Just like any other industry, there is plenty of information out there to learn, some people get themselves to classes, and learn all they can, and some people don't. Of the people who go to the classes, some will go home and follow the new information, and some won't. Are there standards? Sure. Do all framers follow them? No. This is why we have plenty of work redoing other framer's work. This is why we need to educate our customers. This is why we need to keep going to the conventions, and sharing information here on the internet. We need to stay up to date on the newest information, and help other keep updated as well.

If you think that you know what the standards are, perhaps it is time to write a new book on mounting techniques, and get it out to other framers so that everyone can be on the same page. If you don't know what the standards are, then it is time for you to sign up for a few classes at the next convetion.
 
The value of things

Susan May said:
....... some people get themselves to classes, and learn all they can.....
Click to expand...

Oh how I wish all framers where on the same page. I have worked for many crazy ones. Sometimes I wish we were in some other trade. They need to be certified and follow strict rules and seem to be automatically respected. We are viewed with some level of caution. I guess that is cause there are some out there that don't do the right thing as mentioned.

Yep love classes and always try and get to them when I can and usually allways apply what I learn. I would go to Vages every year if I could afford it but unfortunatly I live down under. We have a convetion every other year and a few industry nights at one of our major suppliers that I attend.

As someone mentioned earlier we are and always should be learning and hopefully we never get to the place where we think we know it all. It has been my mantra since I started that we educate thyself and educate thy customer.

Oh and thanks Jim for an awsome answer. Sounds like ACM might be the way to go?

Still rather curious as what happens to the value if an item gets mounted. Does it remain the same or does it change?
 
"Still rather curious as what happens to the value if an item gets mounted. Does it remain the same or does it change?"

Ask that question of a dozen framers with varied years in the trade and you probably will receive 8 or 9 different answers. We had some standards drawn up a few years ago, many of you may remember the "F.A.C.T.S." standards, but the people who were in charge of standardizing the guidelines didn't seem to be able to agree on what is the standard either. I applauded the efforts put into the formulation of these basic guidelines but I don't hear many references to them nowadays.

In the 20 some odd years I was framing, I saw these and other subjects batted about from one year to the next and each time they raised their hissing head and demanded satisfaction, there was a varied consensus on the proper and accepted methods to do whatever the subject matter had focus. Even those who advocated one method back in "the day" would offer a different procedure or add to the information with new ideas and new materials and steps in accomplishing the task. Meaning to say, the way we do things today may not be the way we do them tomorrow. We have proven that theory throughout the history of art and its display in museums and in our homes as well.

I am working on repairing and restoring antique key wound clocks and, if you want to get into something that will tax your patience and demand that each and every step be just so and exact in each instance, try tearing down the innards of a grandfather clock, cleaning it, re-assembling it, and then get it to play the correct music at the correct time, strike the correct count for whatever hour you are viewing, and keep to within a minute's accuracy per week! And, to top things off, there are absolutely NO guidelines that have been standardized throughout the past couple of centuries since the mechanical timekeeping device has come into vogue because many of the old timepieces were one off hand made movements that were built in a small shop in some tiny European village that doesn't even exist in this day in age! The clockmaker may have built 60 to 100 or more clocks in his career, but each one was unique in itself and no two were exactly alike until the end of the 18th century when standardization of parts started to be understood and used in construction of things in general. I have already had to make gears (called clock wheels in horological terms) from plate brass on a tiny watchmaker's lathe to replace one which has been stripped out or broken beyond repair. Not only are there no patterns or guidelines to follow but you need to have some idea of the relationship of that clock wheel to all the others in a movement as they combine to give the viewer the correct or near correct time each second of every minute of every hour, 24/7 for the past couple of hundred years!

So, if you want to talk about standards, first determine whether they are needed to enhance the quality of the item being mounted, framed, and displayed or are these "standards" a fall back for covering your butt if someone decides to come back and sue you for damaging their precious daughter's first crayon drawing done in kindergarten when she was 4 years old. Some of these antique clocks that I have already torn down completely and revamped and gotten to run again and operate quite accurately, I might add, are worth many thousands of dollars and are not replaceable ............. period. But, I am not the least bit apprehensive about doing whatever needs to be done to get those clocks up and running again no matter if it requires an ultra-sonic cleaning or it requires me to make a completely new part or pin a slipping gear or wheel onto its drive shaft or whatever else it is that has to be done. As long as one does no harm to the object being worked on, and there is no change in the function of that object as a result, I feel that we would be better off sometimes to keep our mouths zipped and do the job as our common sense and our experience dictates. I spent as much time screening the attitude and needs of a customer when they brought in some collectible or other object of suspected value than I did in actually mounting the object to the final display.

In looking back on my years in custom framing, I feel that we have a tendency toward overkill in most of the day to day procedures we use and materials we choose to get the job done. Most times, the customer hasn't a clue what we are talking about when we try to "educate" them in the proper ways to do these procedures. They go glassy eyed and assume a blank stare until the subject of cost is mentioned and then they come alive and alert and listen to each word uttered out of our mouths. Life is full of risks and, if you don't take a few once in awhile, you will grow old wondering where all those years of worrying and trying to do the proper thing took you when you find out that you are no longer needed and most of the visual things that we consider important have fallen by the wayside in favor of electronic storage and display that we don't even imagine at this point in our lives. If you think this is nonsense, think back about 20 years ago and try to imagine carrying a full blown telephone/game player/digital camera/book reader/music player/photo album/communication device complete with visual live transmission of the people to whom you are communicating on the screen in front of you while serving as a depository for a few hundred favorite songs, a couple of hundred photos, throw in a dozen full blown novels for those times when you have to wait for something, and all the peoples' names and pertinent information all in a small box that fits into your pocket or purse!

It wasn't that long ago sports fans and 20 years from now we all may be talking of these steps and procedures for mounting stuff in nostalgic terms and wondering if anyone still does that kind of thing??!!!
 
5th corner said:
Still rather curious as what happens to the value if an item gets mounted. Does it remain the same or does it change?
Click to expand...

What is the value you speak of in this piece. A huge number of framers feel $50 is value and 10,000 is limited edition.

I see a ton of so called limited edition pieces which retail for $50 so the gallery can take $25 and the artist gets $10 after the cost of printing and display in mats or foam core and shrink wrapping. A very large percentage of these are printed one at a time even though they claim to be limited edition which would require they all be printed at once to uphold accepted standards. Nearly every piece is different from the last and many are done on inkjet or laser printers.

There is no real value to these as they are tourist trinkets and in many states it is illegal to print and promote them as limited edition prints. Many states require an artist that issues a limited edition print adhere to acceptable standards where every piece is printed in one run to assure they are identical. These states also require that the artist keep records as to who the initial owner or buyer being a gallery is of each item number. The certificate is also required to state exactly what was done with the image so if it had 500 S/N L/E plus 50 AP plus and open edition of the piece the certificate would state that information. These requirements protect the buyers of the artwork which is being represented as something of value.

A certain gallery sells L/E prints on cruise ships because they would be sued into oblivion if they used the same practices on dry land. All of the owners and employees of the same gallery would be in jail if these tactics were used inside of the U.S. One of the best selling artists of this galley is claimed to be original signed serigraphs. It is true that all serigraphs are originals but the signed part they leave out is that the signatures are done by a plotter and not by hand. This gallery also offers appraised values and those appraised values are based on the drunkest moron that ever purchased the same piece. Get drunk enough to spend $30,000 on one of these "Originals" and now the appraised value for every subsequent sale is $30,000. I frame a lot of them and most of my customers only got $500-$5,000 drunk prior to purchase.

Now you need to give some information about the piece you are discussing. If it is a legitimate limited edition piece then mounting it as opposed to hinging will devalue the piece. Any art of value needs to be able to be returned to it's original artist provided condition to retain it's full value. Ansel Adams mounted his photos and that was his original intent of the pieces he mounted so that is the original condition. Peter Lik mounts many of his pieces so that is original condition.

There are many framers too concerned about mounting a provided inkjet photo to their own detriment. Many framers have decided to mount nothing because they have been taught everything has value including a $10 poster. If it has actual value don't glue it down period. If they paid $100 and tell you to glue it down so it doesn't look like carp then follow their instructions.
 
"Still rather curious as what happens to the value if an item gets mounted. Does it remain the same or does it change?"

Back in the silly season for limited editions, condition was everything. Some editions were fetching stoopid money back then. Mostly inflated by people buying up as many copies as they could and hiding them until the price peaked. This created a false shortage and hiked the price up even more. But it was only mint copies that fetched the big bucks. One little crease or a dinged corner and it was a few 100£££s off some prints. Trimmed borders - even worse. But by far the worst practice was to dry-mount them. Doesn't matter how well it's done. Dry-mounted copies were generally unsaleable on the secondary market.
 
Market demand and availability determine all values mounted or not. Case in point would be a Kinkade that sold for $1,500 at issue and eventually went to $3,000 once it was "sold out" and on the secondary market. The fact that there are still 87,932 copies of it for sale on E-bay for $20 means it is only worth $20 no matter how much the dealer charged for it. A mounted copy would most likely be worth more since it would not need to be mounted to stick it to the wall with bubble gum.

Just like one of the most rare baseball cards that is worth $1 Million dollars because it is lightly damaged and only a few more exist so the one that has the most damage is worth $700,000. Now if there were 100,000 copies of it and only one were perfect that one might be worth a hundred and the worst might be worth nothing.
 
It could be said that a print that is in bad condition - creased and generally rumpled, has already lost a lot of value. Restoration may be possible at a price, but this may exceed the value of the print. And it will still be a restored print after that. In cases like that it could be argued that dry-mounting will at least make it presentable. Making the best of a bad job.
There is no justification in sticking down a pristine copy though. Merely as a precaution in case it does go wavy. A good print on good paper properly hinged will not go wavy in 'normal' conditions.
 
Rang them again today.

They promised me an answer hopefully tomorrow.

Will be interesting to see what their advice is seeing how they are suppling the print. Will let you know.

Oh the value purchased new is about $100.
 
Create a Post
Back
Top