To buy or not to buy(chops)

Create a Post
Bob Carter

Bob Carter

SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Forum Donor
Joined
Jun 16, 2000
Posts
17,019
Le asked about our decision to buy chops. We are not the typical chop buyer, but I'll share anyway. We are a multi-store group and used to buy length into a warehouseand commissary the joined frames to the stores. We maximized a lot of our buying and got some serious discounts through effective buying. We never achieved the critical mass necessary with the costs incurred to really make it effective. At Christmas time a few years ago, we were working our people to death and making plenty of mistakes. A sales delayed at Christmas is a sale lost forever. We contacted our suppliers and everyone (local)agreed to do chop and join at negotiated prices reflective of our buying levels. We rarely buy length anymore, unless we do several of the same frame.We had created such a forest of shorts that never were used prior and now that problem is in our rear view mirror. We had done the costings(you know time to check in , time to unwrap, time to inspect, time to search through the bins, etc and found it didn't make a lot of sense for us. I know my framers love it and they spend more time on the fun things they do. We now have a zero tolerance on mistakes because they aren't our frames. The suppliers do it very well(most of the time) and we spin through workorders like Sherman through Georgia. My suggestion: If you have the time to cut and join and you like it continue. If you don't, consider the other options. If you can negotiate better prices(and everything in this is negotiable) consider that. Remember if the numbers work, make them work for you. If there is play on this, I'll share how we made the numbers work for us, but understand we are a little different and not everything is applicable to most of the shops
 
We started buying chops this year. Always did length in the past. It is nice for someone else to be responsible for for the quality and size of the frame. There are many settings and tricks to cutting the frames correctly. Especially the large profiles. Since our focus is art and the art we sell. (We have a chop and a CTD saw) Usually the lengths left behind do not match the mill run from the next shipment and there is not enough to make a ready made without some ding or flaw. We can now focus on the art we sell without worrying about all those little left over frames.

------------------
Timberwoman
AL
I cut the mat, I pet the =^..^= cat.
 
I am currently considering a full change over to chop, there is some ?'s though.
Is the problem with unusable scraps due to poor storage?
Quick turnaround (i.e. 2 hours), how much money, and how many return sales do these jobs generate?
 
Bob, thanks. Lance, We are in an area with 4 full line distributers with next day service. I don't buy anything in great quantity. I turn my money more frequently that way. I have been trying to balance the cost of chop, price and width, against the price and width of lenght. Sometimes its a no brainer. Other times I order length and regret it. I do like the control of being able to change the size at the last minute, but I answer twice for my mistakes.
 
I agree with everyones coments. I very seldom bought chops but was forced into it when my saw was down for awhile . The problem i found was that most of the chops weren`t worth a s---t. It wasn`t the money it was the time i spent trying to make the chop i payed extra for work . I don`t know about anyone elses guality but i`m about a million miles from an oem framer. Just today i had to tweak a LJ chop to make it look and fit right. I know you can send them back and forth call tags etc., but 40 to 50 percent of the time not being right seems rather stupid. nothing beats cutting it yourself for quality. Studio moulding once went back and forth with me four times before they got it right . The problem warped , warped, scraches, warped, finally.

------------------
 
Chop vs. lenghts? I ONLY stock mouldings my length.... I NEVER, EVER order mouldings chopped. Most places that offer "chop" service only look at their saw blades for safety, NOT at the quality of the mouldings. They just "assume" what you will get is is OK. When i get a box of moulding in, and a lot of it IS defective (which has been VERY rare), I keep the good lengths, they pick up the bad lengths, and credit me the balance on my next order. ajh

[This message has been edited by ajhohen (edited September 29, 2000).]
 
Sometimes the chop cut is not good. Sometimes the end is damaged in handling and shipping. Wood is a living, dynamic thing and some woods move after being cut. I have identified a few woods that can't be joined well a few days after being cut. Perhaps the temperature and humidity in the suppliers warehouse is different than my shop and then there's that trip through the fog on the ferry to get here. I order all chop 1 inch oversize and recut before joining. This gives me the advantage of usually being able to join a frame without problem but I lose some of the advantages of chop. I'm a fair distance in miles and time from suppliers and I really like selling a moulding that's in stock that I can cut and join with no further investment in time and shipping cost.

I posted some more numbers in the previous thread on pricing stratagies that may be of interest here.

[This message has been edited by Scarfinger (edited September 29, 2000).]
 
Next day service, WOW, we're lucky to get next week service, do you know how privilaged you are!!!
With the few chops that we currently buy in they are always ordered oversize by an inch or so. I hadn't even considered how much this cost in unnecessary waste, I've just kicked myself and chop can wait for a while longer.
 
The bottom line is, what works for you. I set my shop up to cut both metal and wood. I selected a retail store big enough to support cutting and storing. I negotiated several plans that let me get good discounts on length in small purchases and get the freight paid. I could have gone the chop route and got discounts there, saving the expense of the equipment but I would have still ended up with the same store. Store selection in my areas is limited. The bottom line for me is the freedom to modify size at the last minute, give faster service when needed, being able to adjust my cut as needed for warping wood, controlling the quality and match of the wood is important to me also. Those that order the chops 1" over size and recut to size defeats the purpose of getting chop to begin with.

I once thought (years ago) that cut your bread & butter items and order length on the big stuff. Every frame needs to be look at to see what is best.

example moulding A 2 3/4 width
<pre>
Chop Chop Length Length
Reg Disc Reg Disc
25% 30%

12.60 9.45 7.88 5.51

Frame size 16 X 25 = 8.66 feet
trash 1.33 feet as scrap
-----
10.00 feet used
20 foot bundle required length purchase

5.51
x 20
-----
110.2

Chop 9.45
9.3 feet UI chart from frame company
----
85.05

So I get the next full 10 foot stick for 25.15 or 2.50 per foot.
</pre>

The other variable is can I do enough volume from both sources to get good discounts. For me the answer is NO. Because I selected length I am committed to it to keep a set volume up. I can order a chop here and there but I need to focus my buying in length to keep my seller happy. So having to buy chop at regular prices my costs go to,
$ 12.60 x 9.3 = $117.18. This make my choice length anyway you look at it.

I'm sure this debate will never end. I know that chop has it's place for many framers. Having a business plan that only uses chop can be a good idea. I question those that set up for length, then do mostly chop.

Wow! I wrote a big reply today!! Is business slow? Nope. Took the day off.

[This message has been edited by framer (edited October 03, 2000).]
 
If I need 6 or 8 feet and know I'll get 10 feet or more I will sometimes, if I am confident in the moulding, buy 20 or 30 feet and then commit myself to selling this moulding for a couple of more frame jobs in the next few weeks. This creates a rotating variety in my bread and butter length mouldings. But I know I must sell it as the others in the shop will forget about it. Works in a small shop.
 
My rule of thumb is any moulding over 2.00 a ft is chopped. Anything I buy in length and is recieve warped, knotted or defective I try to work with only once. The next time chop is ordered and let the distributor worry about the waste. I cut inexpensive mouldings that I buy at a good price, for my bread and butter mouldings.I also cut Nieison generic metal with a triple chip blade that can be used on wood or metal. I've used a pricing gimmick that seems to work well for metals. I use the #5 and #202 profile and price it by adding the length and width (united inches). Then multipying them by $1.25. Cost to include frame, glass,fit and mount on a moulding I'm getting ror $.53. It's quick and easy and the costomers love the deal they appear to be getting.Tell me if you think I'm wrong.
 
I know many places that do that on metal. Prices range from 1.00 - 1.50 per UI. Your in the middle. It's fast.
 
I only use chops. My shop is only 12' x 14' (it's a division of a display company), and I have no room for a saw. Fortunately, most of my clients are TV and movie set decorators with no-limit budgets, so charging more to cover the cost of chops is seldom a problem.

------------------
Seth J. Bogdanove, CPF
21 years framing and still loving it
 
Create a Post
Back
Top