Time to Get Serious - NEED V-nailer :)

Steven6095

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Feb 14, 2004
Posts
1,352
Loc
Nicholasville, KY
Okay..I threw this out there a few months ago and got nothing so I am trying again


In each of your respective opinions:

Which is the best sub $1000 underpinner?
 
Hey!

Did you get that Stanley vise (or equivalent) yet?

If not, I'm not talking about underpinners/v-nailers.

Here's why: </font>
  • The frickin' things break down. Some more than others, but they all do sometime.</font>
  • Some profiles do not underpin well or at all.</font>
  • Fillets. It might be Jay H, or it could even be Less (no offense to either of you) that v-nails fillets, but everyone else I know uses a vice.</font>
  • Repairs. Sometimes you can squeeze some glue into a loose corner and put it in a vice to dry without having to break the thing down and start over.</font>
  • Longevity. A quality vice will outlive you, your children and your grandchildren. Unlike nearly everything else we use, they are virtually indestructible.</font>
 
Foot powered.... and just humor Ron, he's out of sorts today, or out of sorta what Jerry said...

Otherwise, what Ron says makes sense if your alcohol powered like Jerry and me. :D

Of course there is the 4" bench vise at HD $39.95 plus a table mounted 1/4 horse motor wired to a light switch for pre drilling, used about $25. Jacobs chuck screwed onto the shaft... $32.95.
Nice tack hammer and regular hammer (used) about $20, and a nice little stool to set your roast on $30.... and THAT leaves a heck of a lot left in your budget for alcohol for the weekend. :D
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Vise - Can get one locally from my dist. Just like the stanleys. Not a problem. Last post - I was just wondering if those were the best kind. I had an older stanley but like i said it has just been used to death.

I thought that a v-nailer would be a good next logical purchase.
Serious: I know what I am doing, it is just that the corner lock / thumbnail does not give results I like all the time and ordering joined is not a profitable thing.

I am not a true rookie with this - althought my last couple post may indicate other... Just finally have the time to pursue it a little bit more

Also have a little money to put into something. My philosophy is to get a peice of equipment when I can - slowly build a good collection of equipment. My profit over the last few years has gone into my pet projects, my Fletcher 2100, my Fletcher 3000 and my shrink wrap machine.
 
Actually Steven, the old Stanley isn't ***ked out, they come that way, all loosey goosey so they'll still work on those bad cuts from the other supplier... :D

NOTE TO KATHY: ***ked out, is Grumble for w.o.r.k.e.d. out. See, I am trying to behave myself.
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Baer, I normally admire the graciousness with which you accept criticism, but you've been all over Emibub ever since she called you out on a foolish post. I hope you get over it soon and go back to ridiculing FACTS.

I agreed with her, BTW.
 
Steven6095:

Asking what's the best v-nailer under $1000 is like asking what's the best new car under $5,000. There isn't one.

As I see it, if you are ready to buy a v-nailer, and have less than $1000 to spend, you have three choices:

1. Look for a great deal used $2,000 machine in good shape.

2. Buy a manual v-nailer and plan to kiss those dollars goodbye when you decide to go for a professional-grade pneumatic machine in a year or two. In that case look closely at the Fletcher 5500, foot-pedal operated. It is worth the $800-$900 you'll pay for it.

3. Save for a few more months and buy a good pneumatic machine, which you can use for a long time. And when it's time to trade up from that one, you can get at least some of your money out of it. Check out the Fletcher 5700, the fullest-featured pneumatic for about $2500.
 
Jim, respectfully:
Why are the manual ones not in a favorable light with you? I respect your opinion, but why am I kissing those dollars good bye?
I dont have a high volume. What else is the target market for these machines? Respectable companies are making manual machines. They cant be that bad can they?

Advantage of a pneumatic other than speed and ease of use?
 
Steven,

They really can be that bad. Though it was in the late 80s, we had a manual one by a reputable company and were able to use it on soft wood, small, simple profiles to some success. The pneumatic nail gun and a vice worked much better. The vmails gummed up a lot in the works and it was just difficult to get a good corner. My experience with the manual machine delayed my purchase of a pneumatic one by a few years because I became very, very hesititant to invest thousands more in the technology. Even then I waited to see one in action at the Larson DC and purchased the same model they used - from them so I'd have someone convenient to send it back to. However, the pneumatic Cassesse has been one of our best purchases. It's been working nearly flawlessly for 14 years now. Just some broken hammers and had to replace some of the air works.

There are 4 very basic pieces of equipment that we own that make it possible for each employee to produce a very nice amount of framed pictures. Ranked in terms of employee positions saved they are:
The Wizard Mat Cutter
The Cassese pneumatic joiner
The 40 x 60 Seal Vaccuum Press
The Pistorious double mitre saw

If I was starting out again and found myself in need of being more productive I would purchase each one of those again in that order.
 
Hey Steven!
For me its Cassese CS79, its kinda durable and seems to take forever to break down..Its foot powered so it makes no noise and leaves no mess..you can even work around the machine because its fully orientable. I bought one three years ago and it hasnt stopped working since..fits your budget too.
 
Originally posted by Steven6095:
...Why are the manual ones not in a favorable light with you?...why am I kissing those dollars good bye? Respectable companies are making manual machines. They cant be that bad can they?...
I didn't mean to imply that manual machines are "bad"; some of them are quite durable and do what they are designed to do. The result of installing v-nails manually vs pneumatically should be the same either way. But generally, machines intended for hobby or light use are manual. Nearly all pneumatic machines are intended for production use.

There are exceptions. The Pistorius VN-M manual, for example, is very heavy duty, but it is painfully slow. The Fletcher 5500 is a foot-pedal-operated version of their pneumatic 5600; much faster than the VN-M, but still slower than the pneumatic version. Pneumatic machines have more moving parts and require more routine maintenance.

Perhaps I was wrong to assume you are -- or intend to be -- a professional picture framer. If you are a photographer or artist who frames only occasionally and in small quantities, then disregard my advice. If you will never build an average of more than ten frames a week, a manual machine may be your best choice. In that case, please forgive me for assuming incorrectly, and shop for a used manual machine; they generally do not hold their value as well as pneumatic machines.

But if you are in the framing business and intend for it to grow, then you will inevitably realize the value of a good pneumatic machine.

Advantage of a pneumatic other than speed and ease of use?
That's about it, and it's usually enough. Many framers who buy manual v-nailers determine later that they could save at least three minutes per frame with a pneumatic machine. With a rented retail space and typical overhead costs, a shop labor rate of $1 per minute is common in framing. That's three dollars per frame.

Saving three minutes per frame may be no big deal if you work at home and build ten frames a week. But whe you're building 50 frames a week in a retail store, saving three minutes on each one could add up to $150 per week of savings. At that rate, you can pay off a great pneumatic v-nailer in about 16 weeks.

The best tools do not cost; they save.
 
Jim, thanks for the reply. I do low volume framing. It is a hobby and a side business. I do not have the time nor do I want to do it full time / store front etc. I am happy locked away in my basement and garage. If I ever would go into full retail: I would not hesistate to sink every dime possible into great equipment! Just for what I am doing, and my intentions, I think a manual is fine.

Speed is not a concern at all! Just want better quality / less frustration than the thumbnail or vise.

I have looked at the Fletcher 5500. It looks like a very nice machine!
 
Gosh I guess I need to start reading every single thread.

Ron, I will v-nail my fillets just as soon as I find a nail that’s .05" thick. For now I use any one of my 8 vices if I glue them at all.

"But generally, machines intended for hobby or light use are manual....Pistorius VN-M manual, for example, is very heavy duty, but it is painfully slow."

Isn't it funny how fast this craft changes and we forget? You would have thought dad hit pay dirt the day he brought home his Pistorus VN-M that I still use today. He operated a custom shop with it for just a few years until he decided to take advantage of the speed of the underpinner and open a production shop. I'll take on your pneumatic underpinner any day of the week (that is unless you have one of those $20,000 ones).

Steven, you can operate a frameshop of just about any volume using a manual underpinner. There are better ways but none are critical for running a low production shop or to be a professional. I would call most frameshops low volume. I would only weigh the cost of a pneumatic underpinner to the cost of a new employee. Unfortunally a problem I won't have for at least another year or longer.
 
Originally posted by Jay H:
...You would have thought dad hit pay dirt the day he brought home his Pistorus VN-M that I still use today...I'll take on your pneumatic underpinner any day of the week (that is unless you have one of those $20,000 ones)...
Jay:

I've never seen a $20,000 v-nailer, but whatever you're referring to must be amazing. The most sophisticated v-nailer I've seen costs less than half that and is computer controlled. But for the kind of v-nailing I do daily, it wouldn't save much, if any, time over my Fletcher 5700.

I used a VN-M for about a year and kept it as backup for quite a while. It is a very well-built machine, and precise, too. What I liked best was that you can alter the position of mitered mouldings in the vice before you drive the v-nail, to compensate a warp for example, just as with any Stanley-type vise. The VN-M results in a clean, tightly v-nailed corner every bit as good as could be produced on the best pneumatic machine.

But it was painfully slow, compared to the speed of a good pneumatic machine. Gluing, vicing, then placing ONE v-nail on the magnet and pulling the lever is no faster than using vices and a pneumatic pin driver, which is how we still join deep shadowbox frames.

In my experience, the speed of the VN-M would be about in the middle, between pneumatic v-nailing and gluing/vicing/nailing brads/puttying.
 
Perhaps I'm confused. I checked my serial # to be sure its a VNM and it is. But its foot operated. Not the hand lever thingys. Thats why I can't see how a pnumatic could possibly significantly faster.

I'm thinking were talking about two different v nailers.
 
The VN-M is/was, I believe, available either way. Both of mine were lever operated. But you still place the v-nails one-at-a-time, don't you?
 
Originally posted by FramingFool:
I echo every comment about vises over v-nailers .... they just turn out a better product.
I wouldn't say that. A properly v-nailed corner can be just as well-aligned as the best viced corner. The v-nails pull the miters together to make a tighter joint, and there are no nail holes to require putty.

The only advantage I've seen in favor of vicing is when the occasional moulding has a bad enough warp to require some twisting in the vice. Of course, if it's that bad, it ought to be replaced, anyway.
 
No, it holds a whole row (are they called rows?) of nails. The only thing thats slow is changing sizes but you can use a smaller size and double stack pretty easy.

Not speaking from experience I have heard from some that like the foot operated ones better because you have more control over the nail than with pneumatics.

[ 05-31-2005, 06:09 PM: Message edited by: Jay H ]
 
But gee Jay, it would only be us slow hobbie framers who would be using something so antiqueded and backward. And yea, it is old and as slow as my hands and foot.
But Shar bought the stupid foot operated sea anchor about 28 years ago and was just to stupid, slow or unprofessional to see that she had to get one of those pneumatic things that are connected to the bangy noisey thingy....

Stupid unproffessional CPF that she is....

Now that I know the FACTS, we'll probably be going out of business next week too. :D

And it might finally breakdown on us too....
 
Originally posted by Ron Eggers:
Baer, I normally admire the graciousness with which you accept criticism, but you've been all over Emibub ever since she called you out on a foolish post. I hope you get over it soon and go back to ridiculing FACTS.

I agreed with her, BTW.
Thanks for having my back Ron.
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Yeah, let it go Baer, the comment was beneath you, you are better than that. So, in with the good air.....out with the bad air.....that's it just let it go......
 
Sorry to derail the discussion.....I had something to add. Why not find a decent used underpinner? I bought mine a couple years ago for $1,000. It is a Cassese 810 and even though referred to as a dinosaur it is so easy to use and a real workhorse.

I still use the vise on plenty of mitres (the difficult ones) before underpinning. Between both the underpinner and the sander it has changed my life when building frames. I could not go back to nails and a hammer.
 
Originally posted by Jay H:
No, it holds a whole row (are they called rows?) of nails. The only thing thats slow is changing sizes but you can use a smaller size and double stack pretty easy...
Sorry, I'm thinking of another machine design. Never mind. :(

We have to change the v-nail sizes in all v-nailers, so that's not necessarily a difference. However, in some machines you also have to change the operating head that the v-nail goes through.
 
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