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GabbyDingo

Grumbler
Joined
Jan 24, 2003
Posts
24
Loc
Holyoke,MA
Hello Framers,
I hope you can offer some insight into my current dilema. For the past three days I have been consumed with a project my boss insisted must get done by today. However, she did not think that the length of time I spent on it was appropriate.
I had 4 wood block prints that needed the following:
Two fabric wrap mats on each
One fillet on the second mat
Two frames (stacked) on each
Plexi for glazing
I ordered the frames in length and then cut them, joined and then filled them.
How long should this take give or take a little.
I consider myself an efficent worker however I did run into some minor snags....the two frames were a little tricky to stack, the inside one was curved and presented some what of a challenge.
Any ideas? Keep in mind that my boss is not a framer!
Thanks! Everyone here always has great input!
 
Let's see if I understand you correctly, Gabby.

8 hand wrapped mats
12 frames, counting the fillets as frames
4 pieces of acrylic
4 mountings
4 fittings

If that is correct, I'm sure I could do it in 8 to 12 hours at the most with no interruptions. Today I made 10 large heavy frames, made 4 more frames and did the fitting on those, changed the saw blades, answered the phone and checked in 7 deliveries. 4 complete frame jobs shouldn't take much more time than that

Are you saying it has taken you 3 days? If so, what kind of equipment and training do you have? How big were they? What else did you do during the day?
 
I am assuming that she thinks you took too much time on the project.

It would be very hard to estimate how much time any given framer should have to take on a project like that one. It would depend on your speed, the amount of design work involved, and the materials used.

I am hearing that you had to build 8 fabric wrapped mats (openings cut, fabric wrapped), fillets on 4 of them (cut and fitted and mounted), 8 frames, (chopped, joined, and stacked), plus you had to mount the 4 prints, cut 4 pieces of plexi, fit 4 packages together, and finish the packages with proper dust cover, hangers, etc. You apparently spent the equivalent of 6 hours on each one of these to get them completely done in 3 days (figuring a normal 8 hour day).

That sounds to me to be pretty darned quick for a proper job of it!! If you got those done in that amount of time with no hitches or mistakes and they were done to the customer's specifications, I see no room for complaints from your boss or the customer!


Framerguy

[ 02-21-2003, 10:43 PM: Message edited by: Framerguy ]
 
I worked for several people who owned frame shops and weren't framers. Some reasonable, some not. Sounds like you may have some issues to resolve. I once worked for a retired engineer, who had the "average" frame job timed down to the minute. However he hadn't accounted for things like lint and static electricity. Minor issues, except when you are fitting a dozen half sheet movie posters with acrylic, in the winter. Or a large shadow box lined and matted with black suede.

Framerguy makes some great points. How large were these peices, etc. Under certain circumstances, I would'nt have a problem with your time frame, as long as the end result was of high quality.

The stop watch mentality is fine for certain operations. But if you are creating fine custom framed projects, there is no substitute for quality finished orders. As long as they have been priced realistically.

If you really want to show your employer what it takes to do this type of order, why don't you give her an apron and tell her to do it herself?

Good luck.
 
Custom = Labor Intensive

That equation is true in most industries.

The reality of this situation is there is no time limit on framing... the job will take you as long as it takes you.

This sounds like a HIGHLY custom type job and I will assume the customer was charged appropriately -- if not maybe areas of your bosses pricing schemes need revision.


Jason.
 
This just Sounds like it took too long, especially since wood blocks are usually image size around 12 x 16 or so and I find that kind of size pretty fast to work with...BUT, SEEMS LIKE isn't always correct...I'm sure many of us have spent much longer on a project than we projected, MUCH longer.

I am constantly amazed at how much longer it often is to make a double stack frame & fit it-- often as much or more than two separate jobs, comparable size.

How many of you charge extra fitting for a double stack?
 
I've worked for good bosses and bad over my career. One of the things which made the good ones good, is that there were no surprises during annual appraisals because there was plenty of communication and feedback through the year, whether it was positive or negative. (and yes, you need both if you're going to do a good job unless you're a completely fire-and-forget employee working in your total competence arena) One of the consistent characteristics of a bad boss were that appraisals always had some sort of unexpected thing in them, and again, it might be bad OR good.

The point is, with a boss like this, it took something building up over time before you ever heard anything about it because they were not good about giving feedback. So a mistake I would make is assuming that some particular feedback I'd been given was about THAT only, when in reality it was something which had been simmering and finally boiled over.

Almost what I'm hearing, honestly, is a case of a boss who doesn't frame thinking that a framer (who is framing only, from what I am hearing and I think jframe had a good point about daily tasks) should be more productive. Without watching your work and frameshop dynamics, I'd be hard pressed to judge what's really going on.
 
Gabby,

What do you think? Did you take to long? How would you rate yourself if you managed the frame shop? What are your other responsibilities during the day? How long is your workday? How experienced are you?

On the surface I would say you took way to long.

I agree with Jo, 8 hrs - 12hrs max. So, if you work 6 hr days, it should take 2 working days max.

Maybe your name gives us a hint as to what you do most of the day. Sorry, I could not resist. It's a joke!

Anyway, I gave it some thought as to how long I think it would take me if I were not interrupted or on the Grumble.

Cuts 8 mats and wrap - 2hrs
Cut and fit 4 fillets - 2 hrs max. should take 1 hr
Chop and join 8 frames 1 hr max - if you have to nail them, that will slow you down considerably - add 5 hrs, but you should be able to work on other tasks, so I'll say a total of 2 hrs real time. How did you join them?
Stack frames - 1/2 hr
Cut backboard and mount 1/2 hr - what type of hinges?
Cut Plexi, clean, fit - 1 hr
Extra time for touch up- 1hr

I bet a very efficient framer with the right tools and no interruptions could do the job in 6.
That would not be me!
 
Okay so I guess I should clarify. First off I have framed for about six or seven years. However, I am new to fabric wraps...they tend to take me awhile.
Like I said, I did run into some problems, however in the grand scheme of the overall project they were, in my opinion, minor. The frame stacking was a little tricky. I had a few errors and then corrections probably contributed to an avoidable 2 hours all told.
This might shed some light on why it took me the time it did. Also, I router my frames. I then put them in a vice w/ glue, let them sit for 10-15 minutes and then hammer in a thumbnail. I have two vices so I do two corners and then proceed to finish the frame the second time around. I now that there are quicker methods.....but this is the way that the old framer joined and this is the way my boss insists that I do it. She firmly believes that this is the strongest method.
In additon I cut all of the fillets using a hand operated miter cutter. It seems ancient and I end up having to make cuts 1/2 a dozen times to get a clean cut. (I just had the blade sharpened too!) In the end, the fillet cutting was probably the most time consuming part.

The issue with my boss was simply that she was leaving for New York (where the customer is located) and wanted the pieces finished so that she could deliver them. I would have started them sooner, but I was knee deep in other projects, as I am the only framer here. She gave me only a three days notice to complete them.
I forgot to mention that in those three days I also completed a small shadow box that had two fabric wrap mats and a fillet. This took me about three-four hours.
I work an 8 hour day w/ about 15 minutes for lunch.
On the three days in question I had minimal interuptions.....1-2 hours all combined.

So is it official? Am I the slowest framer in the world?
 
Again Gabby, as long as the finished product is of high quality. Nice sharp corners on the fabric mats, nice clean miters on the fillets, no specks, etc. In a job like this it is important that it is finished well, and on time.

After almost twenty years doing this type of framing I would be fine with your time frame considering the other projects. Also the pressure put on you to get this job done may only have added to inefficiencies. We once framed an Albrecht Durer print which we purposely took twice as long to complete. If priced properly you should be able to complete these types of jobs without feeling the bum's rush.

By the way, you should be taking a half hour lunch, and two fifteen minute breaks. You may want to remind your boss about Massachusetts labor laws.
 
I suspected there were other factors that caused you to take 3 days. If you are slow, it's only because of the boss. You are handicapped by the lack of good equipment, lack of training (fabric mats), and fatigue.
 
I have to say that I'm stunned at the previous short time estimate given. I guess we're just slower than those times. (I'm speaking of your estimates, lessafinger) Please don't be offended by my reaction, though. Maybe we have a more leisurely pace.

My own guess, without thinking too much about the whole thing, would be that those jobs couldn't be accomplished to the right standard in a day, but that's really kind of a kneejerk reaction on my part, admittedly. I think we've been ruined by all the other activity going on all the time around us. Time spent doing nothing but getting to frame is a real luxury nowadays.
 
po, I thought Less and I made it clear that there would be no interruptions in the 8 to 12 hours we would do the work in. In some shops, framers never get interrupted by phone calls and customers. With the interruptions that come with the owner being the framer, you may have to do the framing after hours. :(

If Gabby has to do the framing, selling, phone answering, delivery taking, and ordering it is a wonder that any framing could be done.
 
Less,

If you are consistently THAT fast, you can come to work for me any day you are ready!! Given the right area of the country for my shop to be located in, I would gladly pay you $30 an hour to frame for me. You would be doing the work of 2 framers and I could take off most days and go fishing!

In the real world, you have to include dry time for the fabric wraps and frames/fillets and time for repositioning the fabric or freshening the adhesive when the phone rings or a customer comes in the shop. I have many times had to go back to a procedure half done and redo it from scratch. YOur concentration is broken, you rhythm is gone, you have to re-enter the framing mode or the matting mode and get your "groove" back for that job sometimes. I may be just a naturally slow framer but I would never expect a job of that magnitude to be done in 10 or 12 hours by any of my employees. Why? Because I wouldn't expect ME to finish in that time and I would never expect anything out of my employees that I couldn't do myself. That is the way I operate.

Given ideal conditions, no interruptions, and everything going smoothly with no glitches in the wrapping or stacking or finishing, I suppose a good framer could do the job in a minimum amount of time. But we should be looking at the real world here and trying to offer some support for one of our kind in a situation that obviously could have put quite a bit of pressure on her and caused some doubt in whether she can do the work and is competent.

I think that you are OK, Gabby, so don't let your boss get to you about an isolated incident. As someone mentioned, if finished the job in a professional manner and you feel good about the job done, that is enough and should make you proud that you could get the project back to your boss to deliver on time. There are alot of framers reading this post that are thanking their lucky stars that it wasn't them posting this thread!!

Framerguy
 
Thanks Framerguy, and everyone else that put their two cents in. I do feel a little bit better about the whole situation now.
I am sure my boss is long since over it, but I tend to be the sensitive type. After all I did spend three back aching days working hard enough to dream of fillets as I slept.
In the end, and this is the really aggravating part, my boss DIDN'T end up taking the pieces I finished to New York. She said the customer would take up too much of her time (she's shopping for her other gallery). ARRRGHHHHHH!
 
Gabby, I have been framing for 18 years. That being established I'll share a story.

I recently took a large order,48x60. Originally I was going to splice the mat so I chose suede. A Grumbler much wiser than I am told me he wouldn't splice it and that there was Crescent suede fabric available from Raphael's. I was unaware of that so I chose to order that in at my expense. I have never covered a mat that large plus I chose to use the Miracle Muck instead of spray mount. The Miracle Muck made me nervous as I assumed it would be wet to work with. The suede fabric made me nervous also as we all know how easy it scratches. It was a learning experience for sure but I decided it was still better than splicing.

I started this project on Thursday afternoon and the thing was still on my workbench on Saturday morning. That is the only workbench I have so I promise nothing else was being framed in the meantime. I had to rearrange furnishings just to run the poster through my press. The frame was so heavy that when I got it built I physically couldn't lift it off of the vises, and I am fairly strong. I usually go to another shop to use their fillet cutter but this thing was so big I had to use my saw here in the shop. which actually was a good thing because it did beautifully. My wallcutter is in a weird place so I couldn't get a 48x96 piece of plexi up on it to cut it so I layed it out on the table to score and break. It was so big I didn't have it properly up against the edge of the table so it snapped funny and I had to rush to my supplier Friday afternoon for a new piece, cut to sizr, which set me back $90. I couldn't turn the piece over by myself once it was in the frame so I had to have the pizza guys come over three different times to help me maneuver it.(Thanks goodnes for pizza guys)

All in all time spent on one piece I figure was somewhere around 8 hours, which includes the hour I spent driving to replace the plexi. I know what I am doing, in fact my experience at Michael's has made me very speedy and efficient. But if I had the guts, I would have fired me for being inefficient and very wasteful. I figure I lost a good $300 on this order. She paid $1,000 for it and I thought I covered my bases. Next time I do anything that large again I am doubling all labor charges for sure.

The good news though is the piece turned out wonderful, they loved it and I did two others for her. She has very high ceilings and I am now her framer................my job this week........reconfigure backroom to be more efficient, especially with big pieces.
 
I cannot say how long it would take me to do that project. I can say it would take longer if the two fabric mats are sheer silk that shows anything, even a speck of dust underneath it than if they're heavy linen, or something with no obvious direction. Less time for an easy fillet and more for one of the beautiful watergilded ones from L-J that chip if someone sneezes in the building.

Gabby, please rest assured that you are not the slowest framer in the world. That might have been the slowest project you work on for a while, and you'll have other slow ones, I'm sure. As long as you're confident you were doing your best, as efficiently as you could don't sweat it. Do try and look at it objectively, too and figure out where you might shave minutes. Did you mount fabric and wrap each mat one at a time? Would it have been faster to mount all of them and first and then wrap them? Something like that could also be affected by the amount of space you have to lay them all out. There are too ,many ways to approach this for there to be one right answer to "how long should this take?"
 
This is not an attack on Gabby or anyone else. I answered the original question as if I had to estimate how long it would take ME to do this job.

The question originally posted was asking how much time it would take to complete this job.

4 PIECES!

The question does not ask, (as it should not, because there are too many variables) how long would it take to do other tasks, including, other frame jobs, answering the phone, dealing with clients, and getting interrupted.

It is a great question! How much time should it take an experienced framer to complete this job with no interruption? The customer is paying for that time only. If you are charging by the hour, you better be able to have an idea of how long this job would take, before you price it.

Gabby may have completed the job in plenty of time given her equipment limitations, lack of experience with hand wrapping, and other difficulties that framers can run into.

I have a chopper, and an underpinner. Most fabric can be dry mounted and I now join my fillets with v-nails. The mat with the fillet may also be able to be reverse beveled. There are however, still a lot of details about the job that are missing.

I do believe that I could finish this job in 8hrs to 12hrs with no outside interruption. I have to run my own shop, so I would expect that it would actually take me no more than 2 days to complete this job.

Let's try this question: How much time should it take an experienced framer to complete this job with no interruption?

Qty 4
Size 20x24.
Double hand-wrapped linen mat with fillet installed in top mat.
Stacked frames.
Equipment: dry mount press(if you wish to use it), chopper & underpinner
 
I recall during one of Jay Goltz's workshops that his analysis is that the AVERAGE framing job takes 1 hr 15 minutes; that ncludes such mundane things as unwrapping the moulding, cutting/joiing/puttying, unwrapping mats, cutting, putting away fallout, etc etc etc.

I should suspect, therefore, that a more complicated job, done PERFECTLY, would be about two hours.

Just completed a complex shadowbox for which we charged three hours labor. For once, we timed it right and billed it right.

More often than not, as Lessafinger hints, we way underestimate the labor time these more complex projects take.
 
Keep your chin up Gabby. The thing that bothers me most about all this is the fact that you are working in some terribly inefficient surroundings! Have you ever suggested to your employer that some things should change in the shop? I'm not surprised that it took you as long asit did under those conditions nor would I be surprised if it had taken longer. If you have been at it as long as you have then get out there and find a different frame shop to work in, you owe it to yourself and your sanity.
 
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