Thumbnailer vs V-nailer

jeff_nobles

Grumbler
Joined
Dec 26, 2005
Posts
30
Loc
Philipsburg, Montana
I have a Cassese CS89, my wife has just finished a class on framing and is totally sold on the thumbnail system. Since I have only had dealing with the thumbnails as a consumer (and have had two frames break) my question is one beter than the other or is it personal prefrence? Thanks, Jeff
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My preference would be for the V-nailer.

By the time you route out the slot for the thumbnail, you may be left with so little wood that there is essentially no surface area that the glue can grab and bind.

With a V-nailer, even with very narrow moulding, there is always room to drive at least one nail.
 
I used to have both, (CS89 v-nailer) but sold the thumbnailer.

A large group seemed to think the thumbnailer was better for hardwood, but I think it's just a matter of using the v-nailer properly.

The one advantage I found was you could route out a deep groove with the thumbnailer and stack the plastic doohickies in shadowbox moulding and you didn't have to corner nail to keep the top of the miter closed.

If it's one or the other, the v-nailer was faster and worked better with more of the mouldings I generally use. As I said, had both, sold the thumbnailer.
 
Jeff -
We also have a CS-89. Prior to getting it, we had ordered our chops to be "wedged" (Not a "Wedgie"
shutup.gif
- that's a subject for "warped") and usually about 20% of the time, the routing was mis-aligned, sometimes so badly that we had to have the supplier re-send the order. It didn't cost me, but it slowed down production.

Granted, we all have made mistakes w/ V-nailers as nothing is perfect. But, with the thumbnailer system, you have to be extra careful to make sure your alignment is exact.

Also, it is my opinion that the routing operation of the thumbnailer just adds another (unnecessary) step to the procedure. You still have to "pin" the corners together. I would stay w/ the V-nailer.
Remember, it's the glue that holds the moulding together & like Bill stated, thumbnailing reduces that gluing "area"
 
The one advantage I found was you could route out a deep groove with the thumbnailer and stack the plastic doohickies in shadowbox moulding and you didn't have to corner nail to keep the top of the miter closed.
wouldnt you time be better spent using biscuits for this & have a much stronger joining in the bargin??? those joints just really dont come apart:sg:
 
My question, to you all, is where is the time savings with a thumbnailer?

I got the v-nailer because a could glue and join in the same step. With the vise it was align corner, glue, nail, let sit for 15-30 minutes, do next corner. With the v-nailer its lining up legs (the frame not mine:) ) apply glue and nail away. Better than 30 frames an hour instead of 1. The only thing slowing me down is the recovery time of the compressor.

The thumbnailer seems to be back to the vise method. Or slight improvement thereof.

My question re the instructor is, did s/he want to sell a used thumbnailer?!
(Mike where is the tongue in cheek emoticon? ;) )
 
I find a thumbnailer often works better with some profiles, like the Romas that are kinda "curvy" but in that instance I have the supplier route the slots or whatver you call them and I have a variety of the little plastic thingys to put in them.

BUT, I think some experts here feel thumbnails aren't as sturdy s Vnails. So we use thumbnails when there's not a lot of weight involved, like for canvas or something like that.
 
It's your wife.. Get her what she wants.

I find that it is handy to have both. The thumbnailer is used less often. Like quarterly. But, when I need it, I am glad I have it. And remember there are two brands. You may not be getting apples to apples advice.

Remember, if you wanted it, you would have it.

Mitch
 
My Thumbnailer is on the shelf. When they come up with a plastic insert that will not break, I may start using it again for assemble-at-home pairs of rails in kits.

I prefer my v-nailer for speed, accuracy, and strength.
 
I started with thumbnailer and it was OK. Alot slower then the v-nailer. You also have to deal with saw dust just from those things. And you are very limited to the width of a moulding. I have since sold it. I have never missed it. Not once!

It's your decision but,I Love my v-nailer and have never looked back.

Jennifer
 
I am pretty sure the CS89 (which I have) is the Compressor version of the CS79 or near enough.
 
I use the Thumbnailer, but we are a lower volume shop selling somewhat higher end moulding. I would not use this machine if I was high volume. I find that if gives me a perfect join and I rarely have to use the vise. I do not like to use putty and since I have used the Thumbnailer, I rarely have to fill in frames. I find that the joins are secure as long as you are using plenty of a high quality glue. There is a bit of sawdust from really wide mouldings, but I can deal with that.

The Thumbnailer is very easy to learn. Also for our shop, the number of messed up frames with the Thumbnailer is much lower than the v-nailer. When we used the v-nailer frames always seemed to "explode." We still have our v-nailer for high volume jobs that have alot of the same frame. Many years ago my brother in law did get his fingers/hand caught under the plunger of the v-nailer which did require a trip to the hospital! It was quite messy and wasn't pretty!

I would rather take the extra time for the joining process than the filling process. That's just an opinion from a smaller shop.

Susan
 
Having used both a Thumbnailer and a Flether Cornerlock (similar machines) ... the Fletcher works much better. The Fletcher slot is routed on a slight arc which tends to pull the joint tighter as the wedge is inserted. The Thumbnail slot is straight. We have never had a Fletcher wedge break over time but we also make sure that the calibration of the routed slot is according to the manufacturer's procedures.

Given all that, since we bought our manual, FrameSquare underpinner, we seldom use the CornerLock.
 
Thanks everyone for the great input. I think Mitch hit the thumbnail on the head. So I think I'll get a thumbnailer and keep the v-nailer. Thanks again, jeff
 
Greetings all:

Maybe those of you whom use the CS-89 are liking the thumbnailers better because the particular joiner is clunky-donkey... if you know what I am saying here!

I used a CS-89 in Hawaii and it always had problems and was most difficult to use to make good joins. Where I work, the CS-89 has confirmed my poor opinion of the model. I am not down on Cassese as I once owned a CS-910 and it was AWESOME and easy to use.

Here is why I don't like the CS-89.

It is dangerous! Why did the manufacturer build a machine that requires you to hold the foot-switch half way down to lock the molding against the fence and then require you to continue pressing the pedal in order to insert the V-Nail? How dangerous is that? I constantly remind myself that I need to be very careful using the machine. I typically dry test-clamp the corner in the CS-89 and make adjustments to the fences if needed. I then apply glue and re-clamp the corner by pressing half way down on the foot-switch.

Next, I observe that the corner is aligned as perfectly as possible and sometimes this step requires first wiping the glue squeeze-out from the corner wherein lies the danger. It would be very easy to wipe the glue with a finger while leaning forward to inspect and.... you guessed it, continue to press the pedal. That would be painful and one of the members above pointed out.

I also don't like the amount of pressure the dogs place on the corner when it is clamped. I don't have anything quantitative, but it seems to be a much weaker force than on the CS-910 (also an 810 that I have used) and my Miter-mite.

So dad got a big 16" band saw for Christmas and re-sawed some 2' long walnut logs into planks. He then planed, sanded, molded, shaped, spit on and scared the wood into shape. He made solid molding.

A couple of days ago he brought some of the molding over to the shop and we chopped and joined one frame before deciding to try it at home instead. After work he came over and we easily chopped and joined 3 perfect frames in my garage with my chopper and VN-4.

That made me realize another reason that I don't care for the CS-89. It is clunky and LOUD! The molding actually moves around when using it! The Miter-Mite solidly locked the corner.

About half the time I have had to resort to pre-joining the corners and clamping them in a Stanley-400 vice before v-nailing because of the CS-89’s limitations.

And… thing I just thought of. The tray on the top of the table moves (the frame) vice just the head when repositioning to insert multiple v-nails. I don’t like that. Can’t pin exactly why except it seems hokey and I think when nails are inserted on steeply profiled moldings (top is angled) the tray seems to move as the v-nail is inserted.

So. Is a lower end joiner as good as using a thumbnailer? I think they may be about the same or slightly in favor of the v-nailer. Is a more robust joiner better than a thumbnailer? Definitely.

My dad taught me to always buy the best (i.e. usually the most expensive) tools you can afford. I mostly do that and am usually sorry when I don’t. Better tools generally equate to durability, saved time and less FRUSTRATION!

Bill Ward . I like the biscuit joiner comment for deep moldings… thanks!

Jennifer – J Phipps TN. Yes, the CS-89 is the machine similar to the 79 but it is pneumatically vice manually operated.

Susan – Susang. Exploding frames? Sounds dangerous! You need to stop using those sticks of TNT as molding! Seriously. What joiner do you have? And by exploding, I presume you are talking about the corner coming apart when the v-nail is inserted. If so, it sounds like the dogs that clamp the frame in are not strong enough (maybe you have a CS-89?), or maybe there is some sort of misalignment or timing problem with the machine that allows the molding to move.

Rick Bergeron. I am sure, since you have used both that the Fletcher is your choice. However, I am not sure why you believe the Thumbnailer system does not pull the corner together. The plastic inserts are angled slightly away at the top, so as the plastic insert is forced into the slots, the corner is wedged together. Are the Fletcher inserts straight vice angled and so the cut is angled instead?

Jeff_Nobles. I wouldn’t waste your money on the thumbnailer. Convince your wife that a better model v-nailer is the way to go and get a really good one!

Warmest aloha,

Bill
 
I can't believe that most people don't use both in their shops. If you have a hard narrow moulding, use a thumbnailer. For smaller frames, use a V-nailer.

As for the plastic bits breaking, the router blade needs to be adjusted, so the join is not too tight.

Some mouldings are so small, or so narrow, that using a thumnailer would wreck to moulding.

My advice - use both.
 
If I'm not too late into the fray...
Check out the Hoffmann dovetailer. Like the Thumbnailer, it's not good for every profile, but for some, including tall stem mouldings, it's the cat's pajamas.
Because it has three different bit sizes that work in mouldings, you can work in very narrow profiles (just joined a Maple cap that's body is only about 3/8" thick).

It's been discussed before, there is no single joining system that works on every moulding. Miter vises, band clamps, bar clamps, v-nailers, biscuit joiners, a variety of routing/key options, and the favorite of old timers, the bench vise, all have their advocates, and their shortcomings. Best to check out what works for you in your application, then expand into the more esoteric technologies.
 
Has anyone tried using Thumbnailer with Hoffmann dovetail bits and dovetail inserts? I looked at price of their dovetails and i thought the price was rediculous, so i exited their website thinking "i'll never buy from THAT place". STUPID ME... i wasn't thinking! The price of W2 13/16" long, for example is $63.00 for a thousand... thousand! When i buy the Thumbnail inserts they are approx. $17.00 per 250... 1000 would cost $68.00. I would come out ahead not so much on saving five bucks, but on the much stronger dovetail inserts! That is why i asked the question... "Has anyone tried using Thumbnailer with Hoffmann dovetail bits and dovetail inserts?" This is probably what i will do the next time i need to order inserts.

Oh... My primary equipment is a v-nailer. The reason i also use the Thumbnailer is for deep moulding and shadowbox mouldings (I always hated to "stack'em...)

ajh
 
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