In light of a recent thread about a LJ article and their not selling to non store front framers as well as what HB/basement framers actually do in comparison to storefronts ,I though what some VERY WELL KNOWN Framers on HH thought about those topics and w the misconception the HH originator of the HH thread said about LJ being the only denier of HB shops would be very interesting to TFG. Please note that the replies come from Ellen at Howards, Nona powers, and MERRILL GRAYSON the originator of HH. Also note their collective positions on the Validity of non-store front framers and LJ or any other supplier not wishing to sell to the same( there are more than just LJ)
This is the originators comment about who doesn't sell to them.
I should have added that it is not L-J who is turning me down. When I took my
first framing courses I had been informed that they would not deal with basement
framers, so I've never even tried to open an account with them. I guess I was
naive to think they were the only ones in the business of rejecting business
These are the comments of those aforementioned Well Known HHS starting with Merrill and ending with Ellen;
This is going no where fast.
There are a couple of realities in life that are present here.
1. There have been and probably always will be custom picture framers that
do not operate out of a "retail store front."
2. One of the principals of a free-market economy is that suppliers and
manufacturers have the right to decide to sell to whoever they choose. And
not, to those that they choose not to.
Getting into a discussion of store-front vs. non-store-front is not of value
to our industry, see number 1.
Arguments that one category of framer under-cuts price or quality are
ridiculous. There are plenty of store-front framers that do crappy, under
priced work. There are plenty of store-front based framers that do crappy
over priced work. And there are plenty of non store-front framers that do
high quality high priced work.
So, if you do not approve of home based framers because of your perception
that all home based framers are going to undercut your business and are the
bane of our existence, please keep it to your self.
It is neither productive or great interest to those that understand the
value of a free-market based economy.
And to those that feel that they are being discriminated against because you
are home-based, it is not discrimination, you just do not fit into that
particular supplier's business model. Quit complaining and look for other
suppliers. There are plenty of them out there. See number 2
Merrill E Grayson, MCPF
MASTER CERTIFIED PICTURE FRAMER designee
Custom Framer Web Designs
Web site design & hosting specializing in the art & framing industry
Indianapolis, IN
317-459-4342
mailto:merrill@cfwebdesigns.com
www.cfwebdesigns.com
This fight has been fought many times and no agreement is ever reached.
However, a very good friend of mine who used to fight tooth and nail for the
retail position, "kill all home based framers", is now a home based framer.
One never knows where life might lead.
There are divisions in framing that are getting more pronounced as the years
go by. A retail framer has to make so much money to stay in business now
that it usually requires employees and a substantial investment in tools and
equipment. The one person shop has almost disappeared and if there are mom
and pop shops left, they are working themselves to death to make the costs.
> - you can under price us because you don't have the same overheads. Do it
> long enough, and you'll have a negative economic impact on us.
No, as a home based framer who does not buy in volume, I pay more per unit
for every piece I frame than you do. Much more. I use space in my home,
space that could be used for other things and that space has to be paid for,
just as yours is. My retail shop costs (In business for 20 years) were just
about what my per foot costs in my home are.
> - Larson-Juhl wants to support those who are in it for the long term,
> and we support Larson-Juhl for their position
I don't mind LJ's policy, but totally agree with Ellen that it is how, not
where framing is done. One of the cutest frame shops in terms of excellent
merchandising I've seen is in the Philadelphia area. She is on a very busy
road, very good location, but is blatantly in her garage and yet is
professional in every way. I also don't blame any supplier for refusing to
sell one mat board and one piece of moulding and if they do, they are
charging for it.
> - time, and personal experience, have shown that basement framers in
> general aren't as serious, as committed, and as long-lasting as
> retailers. I believe that basement framers damage the public image of
> professional picture framing, for a number of reasons that I won't go
> into here.
I consider myself to be pretty serious about framing, how it's done and with
what. As I've said before, just because I moved to my garage, doesn't mean
I was struck dumb or all of a sudden I don't care. It does mean I have more
time to care because I can control my customer base. I had challenges as a
retail framer and I have challenges as a home based framer. Some the same,
some different. One person who was referred to me said there are lots of
custom framers anymore, but few who know what they are doing.
> - serious retailers are facing competition from very serious retailers.
> Any ally we have to give us an advantage is an ally for life.
There is a lot of competition out there now. There are some extremely
successful framers. 20 years ago, I don't think the majority of framers
made much more than $250,000 per year, if that. Now there are a lot out
there making millions. The profession of framing has become big business.
And that is the true competition, not the home based framer. Successful
framing requires knowledge and skill in marketing and merchandising;
basically running and managing a business. There are getting to be more
and more of them every day and I'll bet they pay much much less per unit
than you or I do.
I'm not trying to pick a fight with you or anyone, and I post this mostly to
show we are all basically in the same boat, trying to make a living at
something we love. By the way, Jay Goltz started as a home based framer. He
certainly proved to be competition.
Nona Powers, MCPF
www.nonapowers.com
I started out just as you did. I was one of the first CPFs, went to
conventions, even served on the PPFA National Board, all from my basement. OK,
I
really did my design work on site for customers, but all the framing work was
done literally in my basement.
The advantages:
1. I could do my laundry and frame at the same time
2. I was home for my children when school was out.
3. I worked the hours I chose, and could still do doctor's appointments, etc
The disadvantages:
1. I spent a high proportion of my budget on advertising.
2. I had no walk-in traffic.
3. I had to put up with being 'put down' by some fools who didn't understand
that it isn't WHERE you frame but HOW you frame that matters.
Since we bought a frame shop and I work full time in it, of course, I lost
all the advantages (my kids grew up, so they became less of an advantage) I
garner more Respect from the fools, but my work is the same, and the
proportions of Overhead, Wages, Materials remained pretty much the same.
Now, granted I am now making an actual full-time living at this, but I am
also working a lot harder. I think it is interesting that the proportions
remain essentially the same over the long haul (and I DO mean long... 13 years
with The Framing Van and 12 with Howard's. Who knew this would be a lifelong
profession?)
I found it some what ironic that while we on TFG often accuse HH and PPFA of being arrogant and elitist these comments not only came from HH but from it's Webmaster and some of our co-participants who were and are HB and understand LJ and other policies .
BUDDY
This is the originators comment about who doesn't sell to them.
I should have added that it is not L-J who is turning me down. When I took my
first framing courses I had been informed that they would not deal with basement
framers, so I've never even tried to open an account with them. I guess I was
naive to think they were the only ones in the business of rejecting business
These are the comments of those aforementioned Well Known HHS starting with Merrill and ending with Ellen;
This is going no where fast.
There are a couple of realities in life that are present here.
1. There have been and probably always will be custom picture framers that
do not operate out of a "retail store front."
2. One of the principals of a free-market economy is that suppliers and
manufacturers have the right to decide to sell to whoever they choose. And
not, to those that they choose not to.
Getting into a discussion of store-front vs. non-store-front is not of value
to our industry, see number 1.
Arguments that one category of framer under-cuts price or quality are
ridiculous. There are plenty of store-front framers that do crappy, under
priced work. There are plenty of store-front based framers that do crappy
over priced work. And there are plenty of non store-front framers that do
high quality high priced work.
So, if you do not approve of home based framers because of your perception
that all home based framers are going to undercut your business and are the
bane of our existence, please keep it to your self.
It is neither productive or great interest to those that understand the
value of a free-market based economy.
And to those that feel that they are being discriminated against because you
are home-based, it is not discrimination, you just do not fit into that
particular supplier's business model. Quit complaining and look for other
suppliers. There are plenty of them out there. See number 2
Merrill E Grayson, MCPF
MASTER CERTIFIED PICTURE FRAMER designee
Custom Framer Web Designs
Web site design & hosting specializing in the art & framing industry
Indianapolis, IN
317-459-4342
mailto:merrill@cfwebdesigns.com
www.cfwebdesigns.com
This fight has been fought many times and no agreement is ever reached.
However, a very good friend of mine who used to fight tooth and nail for the
retail position, "kill all home based framers", is now a home based framer.
One never knows where life might lead.
There are divisions in framing that are getting more pronounced as the years
go by. A retail framer has to make so much money to stay in business now
that it usually requires employees and a substantial investment in tools and
equipment. The one person shop has almost disappeared and if there are mom
and pop shops left, they are working themselves to death to make the costs.
> - you can under price us because you don't have the same overheads. Do it
> long enough, and you'll have a negative economic impact on us.
No, as a home based framer who does not buy in volume, I pay more per unit
for every piece I frame than you do. Much more. I use space in my home,
space that could be used for other things and that space has to be paid for,
just as yours is. My retail shop costs (In business for 20 years) were just
about what my per foot costs in my home are.
> - Larson-Juhl wants to support those who are in it for the long term,
> and we support Larson-Juhl for their position
I don't mind LJ's policy, but totally agree with Ellen that it is how, not
where framing is done. One of the cutest frame shops in terms of excellent
merchandising I've seen is in the Philadelphia area. She is on a very busy
road, very good location, but is blatantly in her garage and yet is
professional in every way. I also don't blame any supplier for refusing to
sell one mat board and one piece of moulding and if they do, they are
charging for it.
> - time, and personal experience, have shown that basement framers in
> general aren't as serious, as committed, and as long-lasting as
> retailers. I believe that basement framers damage the public image of
> professional picture framing, for a number of reasons that I won't go
> into here.
I consider myself to be pretty serious about framing, how it's done and with
what. As I've said before, just because I moved to my garage, doesn't mean
I was struck dumb or all of a sudden I don't care. It does mean I have more
time to care because I can control my customer base. I had challenges as a
retail framer and I have challenges as a home based framer. Some the same,
some different. One person who was referred to me said there are lots of
custom framers anymore, but few who know what they are doing.
> - serious retailers are facing competition from very serious retailers.
> Any ally we have to give us an advantage is an ally for life.
There is a lot of competition out there now. There are some extremely
successful framers. 20 years ago, I don't think the majority of framers
made much more than $250,000 per year, if that. Now there are a lot out
there making millions. The profession of framing has become big business.
And that is the true competition, not the home based framer. Successful
framing requires knowledge and skill in marketing and merchandising;
basically running and managing a business. There are getting to be more
and more of them every day and I'll bet they pay much much less per unit
than you or I do.
I'm not trying to pick a fight with you or anyone, and I post this mostly to
show we are all basically in the same boat, trying to make a living at
something we love. By the way, Jay Goltz started as a home based framer. He
certainly proved to be competition.
Nona Powers, MCPF
www.nonapowers.com
I started out just as you did. I was one of the first CPFs, went to
conventions, even served on the PPFA National Board, all from my basement. OK,
I
really did my design work on site for customers, but all the framing work was
done literally in my basement.
The advantages:
1. I could do my laundry and frame at the same time
2. I was home for my children when school was out.
3. I worked the hours I chose, and could still do doctor's appointments, etc
The disadvantages:
1. I spent a high proportion of my budget on advertising.
2. I had no walk-in traffic.
3. I had to put up with being 'put down' by some fools who didn't understand
that it isn't WHERE you frame but HOW you frame that matters.
Since we bought a frame shop and I work full time in it, of course, I lost
all the advantages (my kids grew up, so they became less of an advantage) I
garner more Respect from the fools, but my work is the same, and the
proportions of Overhead, Wages, Materials remained pretty much the same.
Now, granted I am now making an actual full-time living at this, but I am
also working a lot harder. I think it is interesting that the proportions
remain essentially the same over the long haul (and I DO mean long... 13 years
with The Framing Van and 12 with Howard's. Who knew this would be a lifelong
profession?)
I found it some what ironic that while we on TFG often accuse HH and PPFA of being arrogant and elitist these comments not only came from HH but from it's Webmaster and some of our co-participants who were and are HB and understand LJ and other policies .
BUDDY
