that boomerang needlepoint

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Barb Pelton

Barb Pelton

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
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Apr 14, 2002
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The Show Me State
I don't get alot of needlepoint in here for whatever reason, so this is not where my experience lies.
Before Thanksgiving, our interior designer brought in 2 pcs. that she wanted blocked to be made into pillows. We put them on the board and went through the process several times. Nice and square. Sent them to seamstress. They came back all crooked again. Now, I thought they would be sewed up in a timely fashion, but here we go with round 2. To AVOID round 3--any suggestions?
Of course I'll explain to the seamstress to put the metal to the floor pronto this time, but I started wondering if the pillows are going to warp on her? Should I go ahead and lace them over boards for the interim period? Any tips from you needlepoint experts out there would be most welcome!
 
HI Barb,

I am far from an expert on fabric "art" but I think that many of the real problem pieces are done without the aid of a hoop or frame. The stitcher does them unstretched and, when that method is used, it is very rare that one can get them back into a square shape without using a backing and some help from lacing or pinning.

When the threads and knots are not pulled evenly on each stitch, it has a tendency to pull the entire piece out of square. You cannot relax and return it to a square state because it has never been square from the start. It can't return to somewhere it has never been

I am going to make a vote for not using them on a pillow. I feel that they will go back to their "original" shape no matter what you try to do to them. (short of mounting and pinning or laceing)

Framerguy
 
Barb, since these obviously aren't going to be c/p, the method that I use on these things is to wash them with Dawn and cold water, rinse really well, and put just a dash of Downy Free in the final rinse water. This seems to relax the canvas enough that you can stretch it back straight. Then, while it's wet, I nail it down to a piece of plywood, very straight, and leave it that way until it is completely dry. Sometimes takes a couple of days. I've never had one go back crooked on me doing this.
Tom, the problem with this is not the non-use of the hoop. It is the nature of the stitch. With real needlepoint, on canvas, most stitchers all stitch in one direction, and this pulls the canvas off to one side. It is the devil to get it straight again. The only way I've ever been able to get one perfectly straight is to pin or nail it down while it's wet.
 
:eek: Don't immerse them. :eek: That will totally break down the sizing in them and you never keep them straight. If these pieces were totally out of whack to start it may take more than one blocking. The canvas has a "memory" and that is why it keeps going back. I always wrap mine in a damp towel for a few hours, after testing for colorfastness. I wouldn't use soap, most needlepoints are done with wool yarns. Are you using a blocking board? I have taken some awfully out of square needlepoints and managed to square them back up again. In my opinion if they really are that out of whack I wouldn't use them for pillows either. But don't soak them. :eek:

[ 01-23-2003, 11:12 AM: Message edited by: emibub ]
 
Kathy, I've dunked I don't know how many in the sink with Dawn, and never had a problem. In fact, I did one at the part-time just last year, that the stitcher had done a really long narrow needlepoint right against the selvege of the canvas. We had tried pulling that thing six ways from Sunday in the store without doing anything else to it. The manager fianlly called her and told her that the only way that we could do the job was if I took it to my shop, and charged her for washing and blocking. That's what I did to it, and got it right into square. It works every time for me, and I've been doing them that way for years. As for putting the wool in water, as long as you use cold water, you shouldn't have a problem. You might want to test the reds, but that would be the only color you might have a problem with.
 
Ladies,

What you say is all so true, but remember, Barb said that these 2 pieces are going to be used for pillows. I'll bet that neither of you have had to block really out of square needlepoint for pillows. It is quite different when you can get the squared needlepoint onto a backing board and keep it stretched in a square position.

Again, I would vote for passing the project on to somebody else who wants the headaches of comebacks from now to the end of the world as we know it.

Framerguy
 
Yeah, Tom. I've done ones that were out of shape into pillows. Remember, with "Himself the Elf" being a needle artist, everyone assumes that I know all about textile framing and textile finishing. It you let it dry nailed down, it stays square afterward, but you have to wash that sizing from the canvas first. That's what gives the canvas it's memory, and makes it return to a slant. That's why I started washing and adding the Downy. It will relax the canvas. Some of the suppliers, either United or M&M, (I don't remember which one) sells a "needlepoint relaxer". I got hold of a bottle one time, and found out that it's not much more than fabric softener, and Downy at the grocery store is a lot cheaper.
 
Susan, I was always taught to not totally wet needlepoint. I guess there is more than one method. I don't offer to clean needlework. I don't even have a blocking board here yet. I honestly haven't taken one needlepoint the whole time I've been here. It seems to be a dying art. I used to to tons of it. I've always had good results with the dry method. I guess I would be very apprehensive being responsible for immersing somebody's needlework. There are just too many things that could go wrong. You are a much braver person than I am. :D
 
I've been doing needlework since I was a very young girl. Even though my work is almost perfectly square (I work on a frame), I still block it when I'm done. I didn't block one of my early pieces, and it sagged after it had been framed for awhile. Ever since then, I wet block (spray or immerse, depending on how clean it is)every piece of needlepoint. I haven't had a piece sag since. I will not put an iron to a piece of needlework, or send it to a dry cleaner. I don't like flattened stitches, and I don't like the chemicals dry cleaners use.
Whether or not a piece remains square depends on the stitch used, and the tension. If it doesn't stay square after blocking, if you can get it square at all, it probably never will be square.
I was curious as to why you are taking the responsibilty for something you are not framing. I certainly wouldn't have.
 
I can't argue with sucesss and I don't have nearly as much experience as some of you,but I have been taught not to soak NEEDLEPOINT,by some whose knowledge I respect.While the sizing may be a problem the reason I was told was the yarn.I was told most were not color fast and soaking them might(Probaly would) cause the colors to run .I also have some concerns about the effct the soaking would have on the yarn since a lot of them are Wool.
My limited knowledge about stitch type is that most use Cntinental stitch which travels in one diagonal direction which lends itself to racking .The alternative is to use something like Basketweave which has an interlocking look ( Like the weave of a Basket) which doesn't rack nearly as much (or was ir the other way around).I also was taught that Blocking was essential and could spring back even after repeated Blockings but complete drying before being released was a must (This is even true of crossstitch needing to be ironed COMPLETELY dry)Now that i have placed my size 11 squarely in my mouth Ellen can you make the necessary correction so I don't lead anyone down the wrong path.LOL
BUDDY
 
Needlepoints are back on the blocking boards, drying. I have little hope for them. As per your suggestions I will explain this to the designer and she can come up with a plan B for her pillows. I don't really want to risk immersing someone else's grandmothers (old) n'points.
As for WHY we're doing this, we have an interior designer in our store that I sublet space to. Although she is quite creative and brings us lots of business, she does not have a mechanical mind. At all. Unfortunately she gets ideas sometimes and gets the customer very excited about a concept and we are the ones that have to be the bad guys and say--"No can do!" That's the downside of having a designer around, but the good still outweighs the bad. Other times we put our heads together and come up with a solution that is better than the original plan--like the time she wanted a framed mirror on a "track" to disguise a tv. Instead, we framed a 2-way mirror and hung it in front of a recessed TV. Gorgeous, and more orders off of that one!
Thanks for your input, everyone!
 
You're absolutely correct, Buddy. Continental stitch will pull the canvas on the diagonal; basketweave stitch minimizes (but does not totally eliminate) the 'listing to starboard' effect.

Basketweave also uses twice the amount of yarn and is much sturdier for pieces that are going to get alot of wear - like chair seats and the dreaded pillows in question here.

Barb, I don't suppose your customer would be interested in re-working these pieces???

I have, with great trepidation, washed some of my own needlepoint when it got dirty and required laundering but I would never take that kind of chance with a customer's work. On those I dampen the back side with a spray of half and half distilled water and denatured alcohol, then nail it to a blocking board to dry.

In this instance, it might be helpful for the seamstress to back the blocked pieces with a non-woven fabric like pellon before constructing the pillows. Or, as Tom said, it might not.

Kit
 
From all the information I have read over the years, needlepoint should NEVER be emmersed in water. The canvas is held together by the sizing, and if the sizing is washed out, it will start to fall apart. Sure, in the short term it will go straight, but in the long term, it will fall apart.

My information is from the Wool industry, as well as the needleart industry. (Not to mention my own experiance.)

I have been stitching for about 26 years, and teaching for about 20 years.

As for the needlepoint, it should stay on the blocking board until it is ready to be sewn. Even then, if the needlepoint is extreemly warped, it may still go out of shape. You can't fight the nature of needlepoint, it just is always warped.
 
I have heard the argument about the sizing being washed out. When I get needlepoint, sometimes it looks like it was used to wash the car- rolled, dirty, and limp as well as off-square. If the sizing is washed out, why does the stiffness return to it after it has dried? I would think if the sizing was gone, the piece would have no body to it at all.
My feelings about using an iron on needlepoint or embroidery is it is pressing the soil and oils from the skin into it the yarn. You should see some of the filth I have washed out of needlepoint. I can't imagine it is a good thing leaving it in.
I know my feelings about blocking needlework is not what is being taught. But after 35 years, I know how I want the finished product to look, I know how to achieve it, and I know the pitfalls.
BTW, I do discuss the process with the customer, along with the pros and cons. Antique pieces go to a conservator.
 
Consider the fact that needlework was originally done on fabrics that were to be used around the house and for clothing. They weren't merely decorative as we use them today. They were used, they got soiled, and they got washed. Dry cleaning hadn't been invented. Wool is washable, acrylic is washable. It is important to do a test on a bit of the wool to see if it fades.
 
Originally posted by jframe:
Consider the fact that needlework was originally done on fabrics that were to be used around the house and for clothing. They weren't merely decorative as we use them today. They were used, they got soiled, and they got washed. Dry cleaning hadn't been invented. Wool is washable, acrylic is washable. It is important to do a test on a bit of the wool to see if it fades.
Click to expand...
You are quite correct, Jo. I think that the purpose of needlepoint and stitchery in general has gone through a transition over the years as the need to embellish yard goods has gone by the wayside. The stitchers today want to display their "crafts of yesteryear" in new condition and are more concerned with its look than its function.

I still see sweaters, sweatshirts, and denim blouses adorned with decorative stitching and it is mostly worn by the senior set. I think they might appreciate the look more than the younger folks today.

Regarding washing wool clothing, I remember when I first struck out on my own, I had a really nice wool suit. I wore it on a date and spilled something in my lap that left a nasty stain. I threw the pants in the washer with some detergent and had at it. Little did I know what hot water and moreover hot drying did to wool. I pulled those pants out of the washer and threw them into the dryer (which was set on "<font color=red>HOT</FONT>"!!) When I took them out of the dryer, they had an inseam of about 18"! They were about 3/8" thick and could have been worn as a funny looking felt hat!

(Ah, the lessons learned in youth)

Framerguy
 
I don't think anyone especially Myself intended to dicredit anyone's personal experience. However just as some have had good experiences I and ,from the sounds of FG II , a few others have not been so fortunate.Just as FG II pointed out his misfortune ,assumeing "Wool is Wool" we learn that after processing some things change. After all Sheep run around in the rain and forge streams ,don't they?
Someone else suggested testing the fabric ,Yarn or Floss. But I don't remeber them suggesting to do this BEFORE the materials are used in a finished Piece but it's a great idea. Unfortunealey we as Framers aren't always that fortuneate.
When Pam said " embroidery is it is pressing the soil and oils from the skin into it the yarn. You should see some of the filth I have washed out of needlepoint. I can't imagine it is a good thing leaving it in."I hope she realized that when I sugested "Ironning crosstitch till completely dry." I assumed that everyone know the reason for drying it was that it had been hand washed in a tub of tap water and the mildest soap avaiable( WE use Orvis) to remove all those same oils and filth and then rinsed under running water to remove all the soap residue.I used to have a set of these same instructions from DMC .However another interesting thing in these same instructions was that DMC swore all their floss was "Color fast" but then gave a list of the colors most likely to run.LOL Why was this necesssary?A possible answer was that the worst color was RED . The reason :after the red dye was changed ,due to enviromental standards the same ones that made your Hot dogs look different,the dye was more fugative.I wonder if the early stitchers had the same standards?
The teachers I referd to earlier where Marion Scholar and Rosemary Drysdale to name a couple. They both learned from the Royal Acadamey in England and they also passed along a good bit of the differances between American and European stitchers. We here according to Ms. Drysdale are '
"too interested in Framing everything,while Europeans use their work on Table cloths ,napkins and even childrens cloths." But they warned to test all materials before useing them for washability and we should take certain other precations like knotting your stitches so they won't come undone in the washing.
So can you wash or Immerse needlework? I guess that is what they were saying(after all DMC did also) but if things go wrong wouldn't you want it to happen before the work is finished and not to someone eles's pride and joy.
By the way this was all learned by me when my wife and I were active members of SEYG/INRG since we did and still do have a rather complete Cross Stitch shop,except now (after a few disasters of our own and others) we don't wash anyone eles's work . We send the clients to a professional Laundry/Dry cleaner who has years of experience and who makes all sign a waver just incase the impossible happens.You know ,sort of why we use conservators when we KNOW what is needed.I hope i have helped and I know I have learned a few things.THANKS,
BUDDY

[ 01-24-2003, 10:31 PM: Message edited by: BUDDY ]
 
OK. We are talking about a lot of different things. First of all... framing vs. pillows. Needlepoint was generally developed as an upholstery fabric. This is similar to framing, as it is firmly stabilized on all sides. It is extremely sturdy, and long wearing (who wants your chair canvas to wear out in a year when it took you two years to stitch it?) Then someone got the bright idea to make throw pillows out of it. Looks great, but not edge stabilized. They warp because (as others have stated) of the nature of the stitch. I am intigued with the idea of removing all the sizing by immersion into water. This would eliminate the parallelogram shape (the washed sample in my Framing Needleart teaching kit is like a rag). I think this is a possibility. The other possibility (and it hurts me even to type these words) is to (gulp) iron on a fusible interfacing to the back to hold the pillow face square. These could work. But this is so totally not archival!!!!
As to washing wool... Wool can easily be washed. What causes wool to shrink is not water (hot or cold), but agitation. The more you slosh it around the more it becomes like FGIIs suit. This process is called felting. It is where felt originally came from. It is actually done on purpose in some folk traditions to produce extremely warm waterproof garments. The reason for the felting is that wool fibers have scales, which, when agitated, lock tighter and tighter together. Sheep in their natural state are rarely agitated (they are very calm animals hehehehe) and the strands of wool are heavily covered with lanolin, which impedes their becoming dreadlocks (which is another kind of felting BTW) So you can wash wool, but just don't slosh it around a lot. Press the water through it a few times, and let it soak for a short period of time (like 3-5 minutes) rinse thoroughly, squeeze out the excess moisture by rolling in a bath towel and block to dry. My sister says "Ask Ellen the time, and she will explain how a clock works" Sorry if this is more than you really wanted to know....
 
thanks Ellen ,I've been waiting for your input.The point I was trying to make with my admitly limited knoeldge and experience is that we should not assume all materials and treatments are the same,without checking and testing first.To thw best of my knowledge there are several different processing for the same types of materials. And things that are clorfast at one time may have changed over time.I suspect that sometimes what we think is the only way to treat something may change when we have a different grade of a given material.
If we truly know or belve that only sizing holds a material together ,we woild do well to study a product called "Waste Canvas" it looks a He ll of a lot like Needle point Canvas ( Even comes in a sort of Penelope) . But the purpose for this product is to Cross stitch on mayerials that don't have the easily seen even weave. It is basted down on the desired surface and then stiticin is done over it. TO REMOVE IT you spray the surface with Water which disolves the SIZING ( Which is all that holds it together) and then with some sort of tweezers you grasp the ends and pluck out each stain leaveing only the stitching. this can also be achived ( IN smaller counts) by utilizeing True Liens as a substitue).We should also mention that Yarn and Floss as well as other Fibers can be mixed to achive a desired texture but Yarn isn't Floss and vise versa ,so be sure you test everything first. Make no Assumptions if you wan to "Do No Harm" lol.
I once atteded a class given by Kay Evans which taught the differnt types of Needle Art and how they were achived . I thought everyone knew this .Wrong! I saw some techniques and mateials I couldn't even pronounce and i am sure this was true for others as well( This kinda was like William parker's class on Art variations but for Needle ART)
I am sorry for useing the initals of SEYG/ INRG without explaining. SEYG stood for South Eastern Yarncrafters Guild which Later converted to the International Needleart Retailers Guild about 12 years ago.We were members of SEYG since about 1987.It all started with a lady named Dorothy Downy in Charlotte.They Still are very Active and work through Jo Vincent's organization in Pine Mountain Ga.I'll look for better info later .We tried for some time to merge the teching of PPFA and SEYG/ INRG .
I used to attend all classes that didn't require the use of a needle( remebr I can't even type)LOL but I attened as many Lecture Classes as i could ( Marie used the needles)I even went to a Needle work History Class Taught By Cathaleen Epstein.INRG also has a show in Nashville,Tenn.
I menat what i said about i hope i helped. And learning from all of you. One thing I have always said is I always learn when at a class or discssion Since I don't think it is possible to KNOW everything ,np matter how long you've been at this.
THANKS BUDDY
 
Buddy, I think you should give yourself more credit than you do. You know more than you think you know, or are willing to admit to.
 
Pam,Thanks but I am often in awe of the rest of ya'll on the Grumble and the HH. I often tell others that I am a store house of Useless information .What I mean is I remember all the trivial things and miss out on how to correctly run a pofitable Frame Shop.It's easy to through out a few bits and pieces when you've been around since 1987.LOL
Did what i say really help anyone?I hope so ,It would only be fair for all the help I get.
BUDDY

[ 01-25-2003, 05:40 PM: Message edited by: BUDDY ]
 
This may be the time to summarize. The basic problem here is how to effectively block needlepoint.

1) The nature of needlepoint is to be off- square, especially if it is worked without a frame or hoop. The "off-squaredness" is caused by the stitching method. This is just an intrinsic characteristic of needlepoint. The type of stitch used can increase the problem (continental stitch) or lessen it (basketweave stitch).

2) Needlepoint generally needs to be blocked in order to square it. Traditionally, this is done by relaxing the wool/canvas with moisture, nailing the edges of the moistened textile to a blocking board (making sure all is square) and allowing it to dry.

3) The usual methods of moistening needlepoints are:

-misting with distilled water
-misting with distilled water and denatured ethanol
-steaming

3) This method of blocking may or may not be permanent.

4) Methods intended to increase the permanency of this blocking method by increasing the "water relaxation" of the textile include:

- immersing the needlepoint in water
- washing the needlepoint in water and soap or detergent
-washing as above and rinsing in fabric softener

Possible side effects of immersing or washing the needlwork are:

-weakening of the ground fabric canvas by removing sizing
-extensive damage/ruin to the ground fabric canvas (specialty fabrics such as "Waste Canvas"
-shrinking of the ground fabric canvas
-color bleeding
-wool felting (if needlepoint is agitated or if temperature of water is rapidly changed)
-possible long term effects of alkaline soap on wool
-possible long term dirt-attracting effects of fabric softener on wool
-possible addition of non-original "brighteners and whiteners" onto needlepoint

5) Immersion/washing may also be done to clean the textile,with the above possible side-effects.

Tests can help predict if problems will arise from moisture relaxation/immersion/washing. Tests are never 100% reliable.


This is a link to an alternative blocking method. It's a PDF file, and you'll need to print it to read it properly (unless you have great eyes!).

http://www.pictureframingmagazine.com/pdfs/gettingtech/antiqueneedlepoint.pdf

Another way to look at this problem is to shift our perception, and think of needlepoints as being fundamentally unsquare, just like paper will always esentially be three dimensional. We can block and flatten, but the nature of the beast cannot be completely changed.

Rebecca

[ 01-26-2003, 02:02 AM: Message edited by: Rebecca ]
 
Thank you for your summation, Rebecca. Science and logic rule. Science gives us new ways to solve old problems.

Old methods we have heard about are a lot like rumors. The good and evil qualities of the story are exaggerated to fit the needs of the teller.

I'm pleased that you reminded us about that article in PFM. It is so logical that after reading it other methods seem almost ridicuous. Somebody needs to package his method of blocking and sell it to framers.
 
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