Tell me if I did the right thing....

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J Phipps TN

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Jul 14, 2004
Posts
1,423
Loc
Kingsport TN
Customer comes in with newpaper article. Want's it framed for a gift. Doesnt' give me date. She leaves with a reciept that says what date is due out on it. She asks as she is leaving, do I just come by or will you call? I casually say, we will call when it's ready.

I finish the work and didn't call, but the work is done. It sits in the shop for a week or so, and she calls and leaves a message and says "You never called me to tell me my work is done and I want my money back" Says the gift is late and she doesn't need it now.
I called back and left a message saying we don't give refunds on custom work and that is was ready for pick up and had been for a while.
She never gave me a rush date for it to be done by, I just hadn't gotten around to calling. She never called to see if it was ready or stopped by to pick it up. When she called back she mentioned the date on the receipt, and I asked why she just didn't come and get it, if she knew when it was to be done? She said she was waiting for me to call her.

I still told her no on the refund. She got really mad and kept ranting and raving on the phone ,So I just politely told her I wasn't going to argue with her and to have a nice day and I hung up.

What would you have done.

I beleive she just forgot about it and regreted spending the money and probably bought another gift. When she remembered, she felt it was my fault.

I don't know about you, but I can't remember my own schedule much less my customers gift schedule. (Unless it is a rush, then I write those down)

What do you think?
 
J Phipps TN said:
I beleive she just forgot about it and regreted spending the money and probably bought another gift. When she remembered, she felt it was my fault.
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Sorry to hear that Jennifer.

I am leaning towards agreeing with you about the above.

But I always do 2 things: Ask the customer if this is a rush / want it by a certain date) and I always call when it's ready (and make a note the date and time I called, left message, no answer, etc). many would even totally forget to pick up if I don't call!!

Compromising might be the best policy here, I would call this lady back and offer her a discount on her next job as a goodwill gesture.
 
My thinking would be that when you said you'd call, your promise superceded the estimated ready date on the work order. IMO, I think I'd give her the refund because I didn't contact her when it was ready.

Regardless of whether you feel you were right or wrong, I think the bottom line is that if you want to keep a customer, and if you want good word-of-mouth referrals, a little money lost on this one will buy you a lot more business down the road.
 
Since you did say you would contact her when the piece was ready, I'd try to make some peace by perhaps giving her a 20% discount and lots of apologies. Perhaps even a gift certificate with an apology in hopes she just might give you a second chance. Remember, it's those BAD impressions that spread like weeds.

Just my one cent.
 
J Phipps TN said:
. She asks as she is leaving, do I just come by or will you call? I casually say, we will call when it's ready.

I finish the work and didn't call, but the work is done.
Click to expand...

You said you'd call, you admit you didn't.
the responsibility is yours first - whether she could have checked on it or not.

It's egg on your face at this point, apologize, and give a 1/2 or full credit on another framing job..
 
Would the Dry Cleaners call you to tell you that your cloths are ready!!!!!

The failure to meet the required delivery/gift day was the customers fault ……………regardless of whether you said you would call …..you cannot be held responsible for your customer failing to meet her own requirements…….

You are a framer not a delivery service………

The only reason you would be at fault on this is if you gave an explicit delivery date…….
 
My drycleaner never tells me he will call when my clothes are ready for pickup. However, if he did tell me he would call, then I would expect a call when my clothes are ready. In this case, I think the customer is right. Sorry to disagree w/you on this one.

Whoever is backing and wiring the piece (in my shop), calls the customer for pickup, initials the ticket that they have called along w/the date and time of the call. If they get an answer machine, that is also noted. (Customer's kids have a way of listening and erasing the messages and not passing it on). In one week, we call again and make all the necessary notations on the ticket.
 
Dermot. said:
Would the Dry Cleaners call you to tell you that your clothes are ready!!!!!
Click to expand...

Probably not, since it's not usually an expectation. However, if my dry cleaner told me he would call when my order was ready, I would expect him to do so.

I think both parties dropped the ball here. J Phipps told her customer she would call when the order was ready. She didn't.

It seems that common sense would have dictated that the customer call when it was getting close to her deadline and she had not heard anything. But she didn't.

So what's the better option? To stand by your guns, know you're in the right and p*ss off a customer, or to eat a little crow, compromise and smooth things out?
 
Sorry to be crass, Jennifer, but how much was this order? If it was under $150.00, I'd eat it and give it to her for free to make nice. (or just forgive her balance) The she can still give it as a late gift and talk you up as well.

I would have expected a call too, if I were your customer. Some folks will call and doublecheck, some won't. I tell customers that we will call, but that they should feel free to call and check if they are going to be in the area and/or want an update on progress.

Nobody needs any ranting and raving customers.

edie the inthemoodtolikemycustomerstoday goddessi
 
It's human nature to spread a bad incident like wild fire. And people will.
It is the worst kind of publicity you could get.
One person will 10 people of their bad experience and when life is good, by nature we are complacent.
A good referral is worth it's weight in gold.
Years ago, a boss had a sign in the back room,
"The customer is always right"
(Even when they're not)
You did not call her and I would probably have given her a refund.
 
My drycleaners always gives me a receipt with the day of the week circled and a statement that I can pick up my articles on that day, after 5pm. I would never expect a call - unless perhaps I forgot about it and it's three months later.

Take the bullet Jennifer, in some manner. Please report back on how this matter turns out.
 
This is not the customers fault, it is yours. You said yourself that you would call when it was ready when she asked if she should stop by or if you would call, and you also said that you "didn't get around to it" even after a week. A phone call takes no more than a minute.

You have pi55ed off a customer who is going to tell others.

"I am not going to argue with you, have a nice day" "CLICK"

You think she was pi55ed at the no refund, if you had hung up on me i would make sure to bad mouth you to everyone I know and to others that I don't know.

My opinion....You screwed the pooch on this one.
 
Do the right thing, even if...

...you don't agree with it.

I had a similar incident last week, but in the reverse. I hadn't called her because it wasn't finished yet. She came in on the day the frame was due to be chopped and joined. I didn't give her a due date and she didn't ask for one at the time of the order, but it had been here longer than she thought it should be.

I was away at the wedding. She came in and found it not finished, demanded a refund of her deposit, and the person here wasn't authorized to give one. She took the art with her and her husband made a frame for it. She came back in and we discussed it. She felt I should have called her to tell her it would be a bit longer than we thought (even though I never said how long it would be!). And I probably should have.

I ended up refunding her money. She thanked me, said it was her husband that had the issue, said his frame wasn't very good, but "oh well", and the fact that I geve her a refund impressed her, and said she "will be back". Had I not given her money back, she said she "wouldn't have stepped back in this door", but now she will tell people how fair I was (even though I didn't agree, I kept my mouth shut.). I can always use that moulding on a future job. I think I would've lost a lot more than the cost of that moulding. It was a big frame, but would've been an even bigger resentment.

It was difficult to do that, but I had to use the "look to the future" principle on this one and I hope I did it gracefully. I've learned that here on the Grumble.

Sometimes it isn't the best to "be right".

I bet you won't forget to call someone next time you say you will, huh?

It's never too late to make an amends, even when the phone weighs a thousand pounds.

Edit: Here's another interesting view on the subject, on another thread, see post #8:
http://thegrumble.com/showthread.php?p=258539#post258539
 
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To stay out of this situation, I instruct the customer by saying:

"If you have a deadline you need this for, put it on your calendar to call me 2 or 3 days before that date. That way, if I haven't called you yet, you can set a time with me to pick up your work."

That keeps the ball in their court when they have a specific event they need a job for. (and keeps me out of trouble!)
 
Like many others have said - we don't give actual dates unless they request one - but we do make sure to call. AND we take notes on each phone call. We've had too many messages get erased or forgotten. WE even go so far as to note "message left with man" or "teenager" because many times those messages don't make it either.

Sometimes you call and get a busy signal or something and think to call later and then forget and that kind of thing happens - but if you told her that you'd call and you didn't then you probably should apologize and either give a good discount or just a refund . Chances are, if she doesn't want/need it anymore, she won't come in and pick it up anyways - so take the work out , offer to give it back to her, and try to use the frame for something else.

It bites, but it's better to have a happy person than a really mad one!
 
The only shopping experiences consumers tell their friends about are any degree of bad ones, and EXCEPTIONALLY good ones. When you run into a bad situation with a customer, you need to find a way to turn it into a GREAT situation so that they'll tell their friends about the GREAT angle. Whether it's a $150 job or a $400 job, view it as a marketing expense and learning experience. Whether you want to keep her as a client or not is moot... what she tells her friends is what should concern you. Going forward, perhaps devoting every Friday afternoon to completetion calls would be a good way to avoid situations like this.
 
I would be loath to encourage Jennifer to build her business on a customer who has/is clearly trying to screwed her…………and I would question anyone who would give her any other type of advice…………….customers have to take some responsibility for their own requirements……………..other wise we will end up with a customer base who will expect us to totally nanny them……………

My view is that Jennifer is been taken advantage of and if as business owners we accept this sort of action by customers we are heading no where………….some time as business owners we will take the soft route to solve a problem which can contaminate our business model…………and I do feel that if Jennifer gives into this type of pressure from what is clearly a chancre of a customer she will start to contaminate her business thinking

A veeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeery successful Irish business person who ran and developed what is now the biggest business and most successful of it’s kind worldwide (every day each and everyone of us worldwide most likely use and eat their products) has quoted Peter McArthur who said that every business needs three types of managers to be successful “A Dreamer (visionary)” “A Businessman (person)” and “A Son of a Bitch (ruthless)” ………..as owner managers we need to be all three……………..in this case Jennifer needs to put on her “A Son of a Bitch” hat
 
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Thanks to everyone for your advise....

I discussed it with my husband, who said ,as many of you did, that I should have called and to give her money back.

I called her back and apologized for hanging up on her, and offered to refund her money. I may even throw in the framing for free.

I know I am paying for "her" mistake and while that makes me mad, I really feel I should do the right thing. My "word" should be gold and that is what I am going to make it!

It is only a $65.00 job. Thank goodness it wasn't more and it was a very good lesson for me in my business.

She called back and left a message today and thank me for apologizing and she apoligized for the miss-comunication.

Thank you all for your encouragement, I always learn alot here and it's nice to have someone to bounce things off of!

Love in Christ to you all,
 
Not in my Business...!

Dermot. said:
...who said that every business needs three types of managers to be successful “A Dreamer (visionary)” “A Businessman (person)” and “A Son of a Bitch (ruthless)” ………..as owner managers we need to be all three……………..in this case Jennifer needs to put on her “A Son of a Bitch” hat
Click to expand...

If I ever get to the point where I have to be a son-of-a-bitch in order to be "successful" in my business....I'll close the doors and walk away. I just don't consider that "successful". Sorry Dermot, I must disagree with you on this one. Maybe in the big corporate world, but not in mine. Being firm is one thing, being flexible is imperitive. For me, being an SOB is not an option. Period. There are better ways.

Attagirl, Jen. Consider it a $65 lesson. Cheap one. It could've cost you much more.
 
I'm glad to see that the story had a happy ending. Often they don't.

I also have to agree with Dermot to a degree. If you don't stand up for yourself, at some point you will become a door mat.

I know I am guilty of letting people (customers) take advantage of me. I have had several that escalated to the point that I refuse to do business with them ever again. One of those customers was a volume account.

I for one have mastered "The Dreamer", I'm improving on "The Business Man", however, I need some help with “The Son of a Bitch”.

Be careful Jennifer, this customer could stiff you on a high ticket job in the future.
 
Love the weed and the ten fold principles.

I don't think any business can afford to overlook the weeds or have 100 people badmouthing their business. If each of those 10 people told told 10 other people that is 100. and if they told ten.........well.

What if one of those people they tell happens to be a million dollar developer moving into town who has thousands to spend at your framing shop???
 
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My policy is to never say that I'll call. I say just come in on the due date and it will be ready. You'll only hear from me if there is a delay. If it needs extra time I figure that in from the start and give myself the time needed. Never promise what you might forget to do.

framer
 
I guess I'm wondering about the date!

If the piece was finished and you didn't call BUT the pickup date hadn't passed, then its not your fault. You had all the way up to the pickup date to call her. If that date wasn't sufficent for her, then she should have told you.

If the pickup date had passed and you still hadn't contacted the customer, I think you dropped the ball.
 
something handy one shop I used to work in used to do was stamp on the section of the job sheet the client got was that work would be ready after 2pm on the due date and that the client should ring prior to coming in. Not sure if it is best solution but gave us some grace to get the job done that morning if it hadn't been quite finished.

It rarely failed the day before you left to go home and you said ah most people don't come in on the due date won't worry about that one............would you know that that client happens often to be waiting on the door step at 10 to 9
 
At least one of the POS systems out there has the option of automatically notifying via email once the order is marked in the system as done.

If I had the option I know I'd use it; great excuse to collect email addresses as well.
 
Jay,
It wasn't ready exactly on the due date, but she never checked on it, when it was ready, I didn't call. I dropped the ball twice and now I have to pay!:cry:

But lesson learned! I am by the book from now on.

I have to admit, though, this is the first time anybody has ever asked for their money back over not being called.

What I thought was funny was she said "I payed you to call me"
My response was " You payed me to frame a picture and I did" . Maybe I should have a special charge for the call! Ha:D
 
Courtesy Calls & Customer Service

I always call when the items are ready. Sometimes I run behind the date that is assigned by the POS - if I'm running behind, I call them and let them know the deal. I hate being called on a job - it always seems to jinx it! Customers are always asked if this is for a special event and the order is marked to show that event and it gets prioritized accordingly. I have always considered this part of customer service, and it is steps above what a BB does, and the customers appreciate it. It does take time, but saving a customer and future sale is worth the little extra effort.

my 2 cents

Elaine

p.s. I may have given her a coupon ftowards her next framing job, but I would not have refunded the money. I've come across people who use this type of behavior as a regular ploy to get something for free or reduced.
 
If I called everytime I was running late, I wouldn't get anything done but calling! Ha.

I tend to run about a day or two behind the POS.

If it is a rush I always get it out though.


She just sent her daughter in to get her refund. She hid down in the car. My daughter pulled in at the same time and saw her laying in the seat.

I also gave her the framed piece. The daughter looked shocked. I hope everytime she looks at it, she feels bad. She knows what the deal was and that she just changed her mind.

I did the right thing, but boy it just about killed me.

I try never to pre judge customers by looks, but this one just looked like I was going to get taken. I set that aside when she paid up front. (My bad)


What signs do you have in your store about refunds?

do you have one that says.. No Refunds on Custom Orders?
 
Consider it a cheap lesson.
 
Many classes at the WCAF Convention cost more than $65 and don't offer near the lesson that Jennifer just learned. Some things in life are "life-altering", this was probably "business-altering" and that's a "GOOD THING"!

Jennifer, I just hope that when this customer comes in to pick up the piece that you humbly say to her, "Mrs. X, your business is important to me. I do hope that you will come back." Simple and from the heart. You are the better person for it and can be mighty proud of yourself!

After your customer leaves, go to your workshop and manually hammer 22 stacked V-nails with a 10 lb. hammer then take three deep breaths and move on.

If you don't mind, when I run into a similar scenario, do you mind if I call you so you can give me my own advice??
 
Jennifer, glad you resolved your situation. My only suggestion at this point would be to go into your POS system and change your date for turn around time. You made a comment about tending to run a day or two behind. Might be a good thing for you to consider.
 
We ALWAYS call when the work is done ... and note it (time, etc.,) on the invoice ... keeps us off the hook .


Shoulda called .... gotta eat it.

(P.S. Ya know you screwed up .... don't whine ... it's demeaning.)
 
Timely thread as this time of year EVERYTHING is a gift!

This is the time of year when I ask if it is ok to call because of the fact that it is probably going to be a gift. I also ask for full payment up front as I have in the past been "santa's closet", meaning that the gift is out of sight and "safe"! My first year I was running through December by the skin of my teeth, cash flow wise, then swimming in money on XMas Eve!

Also since this is New England I warn people that if it snows before XMas I may not make it in on XMas eve, so they better get the gift beforehand! I try to never leave before the last gift is picked up, and to date have had only one left here. (Its still here, I hear the couple separated before XMas!)
 
Re-read Bob Doyle's post...the voice of experienced wisdom.

Dave Makielski
 
Gosh, you all have GREAT quotes that you use! Sometimes, I pull up a thread just to read the quotes. It's on my "To Do List"!

Just want to thank you all for providing such great wisdom for each of us to take in!

HAPPY THANKSGIVING TO ALL!!
 
Interesting conundrum where both sides are at fault. Personally, because the order is so small-=I mean after all it isn't a $750 job--I'd have given it to her PLUS a store credit for the total amount with a note of apology.

Yeah, might be overdoing it, but who knows when the next time she does have a big, more profitable job, she comes to you for all the fuss you made over this instance??

Better luck next time
 
J Phipps TN said:
Customer comes in with newpaper article. Want's it framed for a gift. Doesnt' give me date. She leaves with a reciept that says what date is due out on it. She asks as she is leaving, do I just come by or will you call? I casually say, we will call when it's ready.
Click to expand...

No-one that gives us a framing order leaves without their copy of the order that has the due date stated on it; we have agreed that due date between us - after us first asking 'When do you require this?'

Still sometimes they ask 'will you ring or ...... '

We say just what it says at the bottom of their copy (after 'please collect your order on time') which is - we will only ring if we cannot complete the order by the due date.

On paper you have her on a technicality, but you know, and she knows that you said .......

Eat the humble pie!
 
one trick we have taken to doing is that if a customer tells us they need it on say, Dec 15th, we will put it on our job board with a due date of the 13th or 14th. That way, when we look at the board and see "holy carp!! that thing is due today!!" we still have one or two days grace. It's saved our butts many times!
 
Our Refund policy is posted:

We will accept cancellation for any item not yet ordered or custom cut.

It is a positive statement (We will vs We won't), which is perceived as much more friendly. It has probably not been used more than twice.

Sometimes it is less aggravation to give back the money in the first place. Two reasons: 1) it just FLOORS the customer, who is loaded for bear, and you just 'nice' all over them and 2) it stops all the anger and upset in my insides.
It happens so infrequently that I have only felt taken advantage of once. And frankly, it was worth the $400 never to have to deal with those people again. I knew it wasn't going to work the way they insisted on designing it, and when it didn't, they wanted to know "what I was going to do about it". Because they talked me into doing something against my better judgement, it was my error. I unframed the work, wrote them a check and have never seen them again. I guess they are torturing some other poor framer. Best $400 I ever spent....
 
What we need is a place to post names of "customers from ####". That way we could all be forewarned.

Or, in order to get a refund they have to agree to having a chip implanted that could be read by a Lifesaver barcode reader or a scanner attached to the front door.
 
The only thing truly that separates me from the competition is customer service. Our refund policy is posted, but we nearly always bow to the customer.

Conversation at the Counter: Turn around time is two weeks, do you need your piece before then? We will call you as soon as it's done.

Production Board: Due date on the Board is ALWAYS a day or two before the due date on the ticket.

Phone Call: Always made and noted BEFORE the finished piece goes into the Pick-Up Bin.

Customer Satisfaction: Top Priority!

Organization is manditory to achieving Satisfaction. I've eaten my pride many times, and it's unsavory to say the least. But it's calory-free!

Happy Holidays!
 
jframe said:
What we need is a place to post names of "customers from ####". That way we could all be forewarned.

Or, in order to get a refund they have to agree to having a chip implanted that could be read by a Lifesaver barcode reader or a scanner attached to the front door.
Click to expand...

I nominate this for the Funniest Post of the Year award!!
 
At the bottom of my invoices it says "Your order should be completed on Nov. XX. We will call you if it's done before that date........."

The pos inserts the due date in that line. If it's not done on that date, its my fault anyway. Becuase its worded like that I can call if I want or not. Either way I'm in the clear just as long as the order is done or they don't come in.
 
EllenAtHowards said:
Our Refund policy is posted:

We will accept cancellation for any item not yet ordered or custom cut.

It is a positive statement (We will vs We won't), which is perceived as much more friendly.
Click to expand...

I didn't want this to be lost in the shuffle...THIS is an outstanding example of customer service! (And it's one of many being offered up in this thread.)

"NO" should never be posted in a retail location. Convey all messages in a positive manner. The old saying is you can tell a customer to go fly a kite, but make the perception of the trip enjoyable!
 
Handy said:
one trick we have taken to doing is that if a customer tells us they need it on say, Dec 15th, we will put it on our job board with a due date of the 13th or 14th. That way, when we look at the board and see "holy carp!! that thing is due today!!" we still have one or two days grace. It's saved our butts many times!
Click to expand...

I do this regularly. By the time the due date rolls around I actually think it's due on the 13th or 14th (as in the example above). That keeps me a day or two ahead of schedule (most of the time).

On another note. Aplogizing to the customer and making it right is of the utmost importance here. If you say your going to call, call. Arguing with a customer over a $65 job is crazy especially when it costs you only about $20 to $25 in materials. Your cost of her telling her story could be HUGE!
 
agree, agree

I cannot hold off from posting any longer ... but since finally, I can follow a post that I can agree with it.

Service is a critical part of providing value to customers. How could it not. I cannot disagree more from the position of the original post.

- we should call the customer, not put it on the customer to call us

- we should provide a firm "no later than" due date

- we should call the customer upon work being completed, why wait

- most people respond positively to work being done before expected

- the sooner a customer is called, the sooner they can pick up the work

- the quicker the balance is paid and storage space is freed up

- we should call the customer as soon as we realize there will be a delay
not the day before or the day the work was scheduled to be completed

- lastly, never hang up the phone on anyone, I can understand an employee
doing it, but never an owner or manager

Communication does not cost much, but it is so important to providing customer service.

I am not saying that we have never had this type of problem crop up, but that is can be prevented.




Matoaka said:
The only thing truly that separates me from the competition is customer service. Our refund policy is posted, but we nearly always bow to the customer.

Conversation at the Counter: Turn around time is two weeks, do you need your piece before then? We will call you as soon as it's done.

Production Board: Due date on the Board is ALWAYS a day or two before the due date on the ticket.

Phone Call: Always made and noted BEFORE the finished piece goes into the Pick-Up Bin.

Customer Satisfaction: Top Priority!

Organization is manditory to achieving Satisfaction. I've eaten my pride many times, and it's unsavory to say the least. But it's calory-free!

Happy Holidays!
Click to expand...
 
I agree with everyone about the warm fuzzy customer service yada yada. Heck, fall on your sword, double the refund, whatever makes you feel good.

However, is there not something that gives you a hinkey feeling when you read that the customer hid by laying down in the car and sent her daughter in?

Something is just a little off about that.
 
"If I called everytime I was running late, I wouldn't get anything done but calling! Ha. I tend to run about a day or two behind the POS."

This sounds like the kind of business I stay away from. I give a delivery/finish date and unless a major disaster happens I stick with it. I rely on suppliers who can give me service when they say they can and I do this for my customers/clients.

If I say I will call, I call. If I don't call then it is my fault. I sell service and not excuses and do whatever I can to make it right. With those few really difficult customers I tell them that I can't get it done in their time frame and send them elsewhere. They are very few.

If you can't make the promised date, change your business practices. It is the businesses like this that get me more referrals than anything else. I want to do it on time, every time and have it done right.

Get the number and call, make notations on the call and then follow up if needed. It keeps finished jobs from piling up in the shop and makes for happy customers. I don't know how many times I have had surprised customers and clients who were surprised when we had the job done on time and called them as a reminder. Tells me too many run 'late' as normal business practice, what I call lousy service.

You have received a lot of good advice on business practice here. Incorporate it in your way of working and you will cut way down on the problem customers.
 
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