Tall Spacers - How do you do it?

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Verdaccio

Verdaccio

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Joined
Jan 22, 2007
Posts
757
Loc
Berthoud, Colorado
Hihi!

I have done multiple projects where I have need to create space of 1/2 inch and up to 2 inches of space in the frame between art and glass.

I have done this by gluing mat to foamcore and making strips of whatever height I need which I then glue to the inside edge of the frame.

Wondering if others are doing similar, or doing it differently and if so, would you share what you do?

Thanks! :)
 
That's one way, but a nicer way (and better financially for you) is to make space using a liner of some kind.
 
I do it with foam core and mat board usong 969 atg and a dab of glue in the middle, I find they tend to come loose after a while otherwise.
Second option wood to match the frame, Picture Woods has some nice ones.
 
RParrish said:
I do it with foam core and mat board usong 969 atg and a dab of glue in the middle, I find they tend to come loose after a while otherwise.
Second option wood to match the frame, Picture Woods has some nice ones.
Click to expand...


I use glue and atg too.
 
pinwheel, that way each sides butts against another side and there are no gaps.
 
Verdaccio said:
Hihi!

I have done multiple projects where I have need to create space of 1/2 inch and up to 2 inches of space in the frame between art and glass.

I have done this by gluing mat to foamcore and making strips of whatever height I need which I then glue to the inside edge of the frame.

Wondering if others are doing similar, or doing it differently and if so, would you share what you do?

Thanks! :)
Click to expand...

What about cutting the quick shadowbox...box? Scoring and folding up the sides to create the spacer? It is best with fabric or patterened surface mats, but we have done some with cotton rag mats and they turned out fine...might not be all that easy for the 1/2 inch, but would for the 2".
 
I drymount the matboard to a piece of foam core, then cut my strips.
Works well.
 
Mat board laminated to foam core fillets

The order you do them is important, you should put the top and bottom in first. Do not cut them exact and cut the ends beveled, if the need a litlle trimming to size, trimming them on a bevel is cleaner and precise. Leave a little allowance for expansion and contraction.

Cut the side bevels next. Trim side spacer to fit between top and bottom. The side spacer should be flush as possible but not so much that you have to force it in. This will also apply slight pressure to the top holding it in place, think Stonehinge. I do it with wood spacers as well

When I use frame space spacer or the like I do a pinwheel.
 
PaulSF said:
That's one way, but a nicer way (and better financially for you) is to make space using a liner of some kind.
Click to expand...

Absolutely. We are now charging almost as much for mat walls as for liners because of the labor involved in mat walls. Moreover, mat walls can come loose. Still, it is a very popular technique, and often requested by customers.
On oversize pieces we will no longer make mat walls, and insist on liners.
 
Kirstie - I love the name "mat walls." Thanks!!! Sounds a lot more interesting than what I have been using which is "spacers."

Mat walls,

Mat walls,

Mat walls - there, it is implanted in my memory!
 
Framar said:
Kirstie - I love the name "mat walls." Thanks!!! Sounds a lot more interesting than what I have been using which is "spacers."

Mat walls,

Mat walls,

Mat walls - there, it is implanted in my memory!
Click to expand...


LOL! We've been using the term for at least 20 years!
 
RParrish said:
The order you do them is important, you should put the top and bottom in first. Do not cut them exact and cut the ends beveled, if the need a litlle trimming to size, trimming them on a bevel is cleaner and precise. Leave a little allowance for expansion and contraction.

Cut the side bevels next. Trim side spacer to fit between top and bottom. The side spacer should be flush as possible but not so much that you have to force it in. This will also apply slight pressure to the top holding it in place, think Stonehinge. I do it with wood spacers as well

When I use frame space spacer or the like I do a pinwheel.
Click to expand...

The pinwheel method works just as well for the "walls" as it does on wood spacers. The pinwheel method will cut your time spent lining sides at least in half.
 
I'm kinda more with Randy on this... I figure if pillars have held up the lintels of the Greek temples all this time (or Stonehenge... wonder which one is older?), then my 'mat walls' (love that term) will do better with a lintel across the top of the box, then two pillars on either side, and then the bottom piece.

I glue a double layer of matboard for my mat walls. I think even 1/8" foamboard is generally too thick and looks a little odd right at the edge of the frame. I make sure to cut the glass for a tight fit, too.
 
I believe what Jo was trying to say was that the pinwheel method is faster than the "pillar" method in that you don't have to be so precise in your cutting and the walls still come out tight if done correctly. I might add that, if you use glue to hold the walls in place, there is little chance of either method ever coming apart. I use little strips of ATG with PVA glue in between to adhere the sides.

Easy and fast.
 
I like the Stonehenge method!


EllenAtHowards said:
I figure if pillars have held up the lintels of the Greek temples all this time (or Stonehenge... wonder which one is older?),
Click to expand...

Stonehenge 3000 BC
Greek Temples about 600 BC
 
Thanks for the tips. Who woulda thunk to drymount the mat to the foam core. Sometimes the obvious is the most difficult .......... I will be doing just this today. "Mat walls" will take about the same amount of time as bevel accents.
 
I use Yes Paste to adhere the matboard to the foamcore/foamcore to the rabbet depth; pillar method.
 
Great conversation! I do find that they can take a bit of labor. I charge a 1/2 hour to do them.
 
Yes, I never seem to charge enough.

If you break it down, you have to Yes Paste/ATG mat to foam, then pop it in the vacuum mount or other similar method, then perfectly measure and cut your strips, then ATG/Yes Paste them to the sides. It is time consuming! I will put a specialty in my POS system called "Mat walls."

One thing that I did learn is that if you put little pencil marks when you measure, make sure that you erase them before you put the walls in, or they most likely stick out like a sore thumb in the final project.

I have two big ones to do right now, but will it be pinwheel or Stonehenge?

Susan
 
The down side of using atg tape is that it sticks to the mat, gets on the glass.

I have it down so fast it's just a matter of making the cuts regardless of the method.

I do like to build them up and use 1/8 affc and mat board will fit most rabits perfectly, except Picturewoods. It's a seamless looks going from the inside of the frame to the mat.

On a side note Cresent boards are the poorest for this becausr the ply's separate.

So what does everyone charge for this? I typically charge for mat spacers $4.75 per foot; plexi depending on the type but about $2.50 per foot, but I also charge more for the fitting because of the additional labor involved.
 
After repairing the first 25 shadowbox walls made of mat/fc/glue/atg because of buckling, bowing, warping, and weepwowing, I decided that this was unsuitable material for this purpose and I said goodbye to mat walls forever. This was back in the mid-eighties.

Now I use only wood. Sometimes liners, sometimes I use various size lattice and screen door bead from the lumberyard. There are many nifty liner-y things in a variety of sizes available from the raw liner folks. I paint to match frame or backing, stain, wrap with fabric or paper, but use no mat board. I have mitered and built them and I have mitered them and stuck them with supersticky atg (which makes the liners easily removed.)

There's my opinion.
Edie the paintitblack goddess
 
The advantage of a liner (or stacked frame) is the ease of disassembly should that be required for a glass replacement (because a year later, the customer comes back for museum glass we hope). Beats all heck out of pulling off those glued-on mat walls.
 
The other huge plus side to using a deep scoop liner is that you eliminate the "coffin" look of straight walls. Especially once you get past the 1/2" depth. And as Paul pointed out.... you'll make more on a liner then you ever could charge for a mat wall.
 
Frankenthread Alert

Baer Charlton said:
The other huge plus side to using a deep scoop liner is that you eliminate the "coffin" look of straight walls. Especially once you get past the 1/2" depth. And as Paul pointed out.... you'll make more on a liner then you ever could charge for a mat wall.
Click to expand...

That would be a "Casket" look as coffin's are narrow top and bottom and wide at the shoulder. Where as caskets are straight top to bottom. Coffin look does roll off the tongue easier though.:D
 
I like the clean simplicity of the "mat walls/spacers" no scooping for me. And yes they are prone to bowing if they are not glued in a little extra, and the miters must be just shy of perfect as I said before. I like wood and fabric when I'm doing a fabric mat too.
 
This thread is quite timely - I'm doing 49 of these for a hotel - but this is an 8x6" sample photo - the real ones will be 20x24" average - all with museum glass. Possibility of doing the same for more hotels in the chain - excited!

The spacers are uncovered artcare foamboard - happened to match the matboard backing perfectly.

Would there be any benefit in mitreing (mitring/mitering??) the spacers and could that be done, for speed, on the Morso?

(I'd try without asking - I'm at home though)
 

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Museum glass for a hotel job?? My hotel client has been opting for clear glass (no UV protection) to keep costs down. I'd be charging full price for Museum Glass, though.
 
John, I'm thinking regular FC might crush in the chopper- it's worth a try though.
What about gaterboard? It's more rigid and might cut mo' better in the chopper. I think it is even that warmer white color as well.
Just some stray thoughts...
edie the chopchop goddess
 
PaulSF said:
Museum glass for a hotel job?? My hotel client has been opting for clear glass (no UV protection) to keep costs down. I'd be charging full price for Museum Glass, though.
Click to expand...

It's not museum glass as in Tru Vu - it's a water-white product plus UV - 90% UV filtering - I won't stock the (water-white) stuff without the UV - why pay more for glass that makes stuff fade faster than bog standard stuff - is my take. Pay a bit more - get some protection.

Framing Goddess said:
John, I'm thinking regular FC might crush in the chopper- it's worth a try though.
What about gaterboard? It's more rigid and might cut mo' better in the chopper. I think it is even that warmer white color as well.
Just some stray thoughts...
edie the chopchop goddess
Click to expand...

No idea what the UK equivalent of gatorboard is Edie - but I'll ask our forum!

John - the - whydowespeakdifferent Robot
 
I don't see what advantage would be gained from trying to miter the spacers on a chopper. Butt-joined glue-ins (post-and-lintel arrangement) seem to work fine for me, and for a production job these could all be trimmed to the needed lengths in batches on the straightline cutter.* I've also not had problems with disintegration of spacers made from matboard atg/cornerwelded to 1/8" FC. I find the variety of color possibilities and ease of construction a good solution.
:popc: Rick

*If you have a CMC I suppose you could make the matboard spacer facings by cutting a series of "skinny rectangles" to your exact required sizes.
 
I think I understand why John would want to trim the spacer on the chopper, extra wide spacer as shown in his photo must be perfect, cutting by hand a spacer thats, 1/2' or more might look crooked or off.

I suggest laminating mat board to a soft wood, such as balsa and then trimming on the chopper or painting some wood sticks that might be the right size.
 
I tried might-ering (!) foamboard on the morso - Edie's right - it crushes!

But doing a shedload of spacers on the wall mounted cutter (mine's a keencut excalibur) is faster anyway if using the Stonehenge method.

Set R/H stop to rabbet size - cut. Set L/H stop to depth required - cut until you run out - repeat!
 
I think the difference between the two methods, pinwheeling and stonhenging (LOL) depends on what the application is, if the spacers are attaching to the glass, pinwheel is easier and faster. If the spacers are attached to the inside of the frame, nothing is really faster, the same care must be used with either method.
 
I think the basic advantage of the pinwheel is looks. With stonehenge, both ends of the side spaces are visible, so they must be perfect, and expansion/contraction will likely form gaps. With pinwheeling, you can leave plenty of expansion room "behind" the end of the previous side, thus allowing for tighter corners.
 
I use the pinwheel technique. I think the biggest advantage is the bit of space that can be left hidden within the "joint" of the matboard walls thus allowing for expansion & contraction. That's the biggest issue with the "Stonehenge" style - no room for expansion & contraction = buckled mat board walls.
 
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