STICKY WICKET # 1 How would you handle this?

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JRB

JRB

PFG, Picture Framing God
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Aug 12, 2000
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San Diego, CA
One of the old trade magazines used to run a column called "Sticky Wicket". This column was a how to handle this situation feature in the magazine.

Here is my "Sticky Wicket"

A customer brings in a giclee by a well known artist (Michael Godard) to be framed. They spend over $300.00 on the framing, paid in advance.

I screwed up and heat mounted the print and destroyed it. I got on The Grumble trying to find a way of getting a hold of Michael Godard. Thanks to The Grumble, I was able to do just that.

His company was very understanding except that the print I have, turns out to be a forgery.

.I destroyed the customers print.
.The print is a forgery.
.The artist will not replace a forgery.

What would you do now? ( I have not called my customer, yet. )
 
Wow - I think your customer would have a big issue with whoever sold them this forgery! Calling to tell them how you happened to stumble upon the forgery information will be a fun time - good thing you have forty years of experience to back you up!

Perhaps they will sue the offending seller, and with the resulting pay-off, buy a real Michael Godard print and then you can frame it (but not heat mount it!).

You'll have to refund the framing, of course - but in a backasswards sort of way you have done both your customer and Michael Godard a FAVOR by exposing this nefarious activity!
 
WOW. Out of the kettle and into the fire.

Good luck. What about contacting the forgeror and threatning to expose them unless they give you another forgery. Then pretend you never saw this thing.

Carry on
 
WOW what a mess.

How much will they sell you a real print for?

In any case you need to start off by contacting your client. But you already know that. I wonder if they knew it was a forgery when they bought it? It might be better off finding this out now rather then later.

Good luck
 
How do they know that it was a forgery?
Maybe if you explained this to the customer and they could share the source as to where they bought it from and shared that with the Micheal Godard company perhaps they would be grateful so that they could persue legal action.
Maybe I am looking through rose colored glasses but maybe they would cut you a break on the orginal?
For me honesty is the best policy ! Best of luck!
 
There are many digital prints coming into frame shops across the land....and it is difficult at times to understand the nature of the inks. I have figured this out and have a good hold on it. Did a lot of research in the area of Dye based and Pigmented inks digital prints. Watch out for the release paper - The Silacone side will kill a print in seconds, when using even low heat!
 
Let's play the devil's advocate for a second:

What if the customer really knows it was a forgery?

Maybe he paid a little for it, wanted it framed and was hoping no one would find out?

Be prepared for such a scenario as well.

Really messy indeed.
 
Very sticky indeed, enough to cause more spin if not corrected soon (any cricketers here?)...

Is there any way that you can have a third party investigate the validity of the forgery claim?

Once this is established I would inform the customer of the steps I have taken to this point, the fact that the image was a forgery and that further investigation may take place by the third party investigator.

My correction would be simple, I would replace the forgery with the real McCoy if at all possible (although costly and enough to make you want to bang your head repeatedly on a brick wall but it is the only solution that I would consider fair). If that is not enough to make your customer happy then I don't know what would be.

First step, ensure the claim of forgery is valid.
 
If the artist said you could mount it that way, that should release you of any liability.
 
Ask the Godard people if heat mounting would have destroyed a print that was not a forgery. If an authentic piece would have survived then your heat mounting is not proximate cause, the forgery of the print is.
 
Hmmmmm, this sounds familiar. Right after I bought our business, I was able to sell a bronze that had been on consignment in the shop for quite some time. I contacted the artist for more information and she informed me that the bronze I had sold was a fake! We went through all kinds of investigations, phone calls, etc. She was ready to sue the foundry blah blah and then at the last minute asked me to send her the bronze for further investigation. A week later she called back and said ..."oops, sorry, it is my work." She had forgotten about this special edition she did when she was a starving artist.
Is it possible that what you have is just that?
Also, remember what your momma taught you....honesty is the best policy. Just tell your customer the truth. You made a mistake and you want to make it right. My customer was very happy that I didn't just try to pass along a fake. (which I could have easily done)
Good luck!
 
Originally posted by johnny:
Ask the Godard people if heat mounting would have destroyed a print that was not a forgery. If an authentic piece would have survived then your heat mounting is not proximate cause, the forgery of the print is.
Click to expand...
I was about to say the same thing!
 
The Godard Company is still investigating this print to make darn sure before I contact my customer.

The print is 20 1/2" X 30 1/2" with an edition size of 150

They never made that size in a 150 edition. They did make an edition of that print in 150, however, the print size was much smaller.

The idea of checking if an authentic print could have handled a heat mount is an excellent one. I will call the company now and ask them. That would certainly get me off the hook.

Surprisingly, even after fourty years, I continue to make bad choices and I don't always have all the answers, This is why I started this thread in the first place.

John
 
I called the company. They said they thought an original could have been heat mounted without any problems. They are going to double check with their printer and let me know.

John
 
Originally posted by JRB:
Surprisingly, even after fourty years, I continue to make bad choices and I don't always have all the answers, This is why I started this thread in the first place.
Click to expand...
John, your no BS approach is refreshing. We all screw up don't we? Good luck with the whole ordeal.
 
Check eBay completed auctions for the image and look inside the descriptions for the edition number and size and see if they purchased it from some asshat over the internet and how much it went for. If it's a fake it's not too much of a wild goose chase to look there. Maybe you can get lucky and see how much they have invested in it.
 
Kathy, thanks. Also thanks to everyone else's input, my luck on this ordeal seems to be greatly improving.

John
 
Scott this guy is by no means poor. He has been known for sometime now. He is most likely a millionaire. Do a search on his name and tons of stuff comes up. I am sure he did the struggling art thing, but a while ago. This olive thing that he does-martini is popular and been that way for a while. I would think this is not something he did in his poorer years. But one never knows...

Good luck on this John. I would never want to tell a customer that the work is a fake...and that there was an incident. There is nothing good there, but it seems like you are in contact with the Godard Company and they are helping. That is a huge start. Hopefully they are really nice and the two of you can come to some type of solution that makes all involved happy.

Keep us informed as I know you will

PL
 
My question is, why on earth would you heat mount anything that was signed and numbered to begin with? Did the customer request this? Did you discuss the dangers of heat-mounting limited edition prints, whether on paper or canvas? Did you document your discussion on the work order? If you did, seems like you're in the clear, whether it was a forgery or not.

I have a stamp that says "I have been advised of the proper method of framing my art and have declined such offer, hereby releasing this company from any liabilty due to damage that may appear at a later date." When asked to sign this, they almost always balk, think a minute, and then decide to go with the "proper method" after all.

If you didn't discuss this, then it's a moot point, but still a learning experience. I would talk to the client, tell them what has occurred and what you've done to try to correct it. And do it now, before you dig the hole any deeper.the more you try to cover up your mistake, the deeper the hole's gonna get. Honesty is the best policy, in my book.

I have a problem with the suggestion of replacing it with an original, whether the client knew it was a forgery or not. That's between him and the place he purchased it from.

We had this discussion not long ago about a very collectable guitar that was to be reframed and upon disassembling it, discovered the guitar was stapled in, and should the client be notified. I don't remember what the final outcome was, but just about everyone agreed that the right thing to do was pick up the phone and tell.

I think you already know the right thing to do, and my suggestion is to not lose any more sleep over it, but call your client first thing in the morning. Keep us posted!
 
Val, yest to all your queries. Our rubber stamp disclaimer is much more harsh, or blunt, than yours. Ours reads, "WARNING, THIS TYPE OF FRAMING WILL DESTROY THE COLLECTIBLE VALUE OF YOUR ARTWORK"

Everything was explained to the customer and the stamp and the work order, that limits our liability was signed by the customer.

However, being legally protected does not absolve us morally. The customer brought their picture to us for framing, we failed them. The next step is to try and make them happy, not **** them off.

John
 
I think it's interesting that, whenever a discussion like this comes up, we trot out our disclaimers.

Disclaimers do two things (and, so, are not totally useless):
</font>
  • They encourage disclosure and education.</font>
  • They discourage frivolous lawsuits.</font>
But:
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  • They don't eliminate lawsuits, since you can't sign away your right to sue with a disclaimer.</font>
  • They don't make an unhappy customer happy.</font>
We all agree that you can't make everyone happy all the time, but John is to be applauded for wanting to give it his best shot.

If I were looking for framing, I'd want JRB to be my framer because:

</font>
  • He's a riteous d u d e.</font>
  • I'd love a trip to San Diego.</font>
(I love lists. Don't you?)
 
You were contacted by the Art Police and ordered to destroy this forgery with your heat press?
 
John,

If nothing else as a customer I would be impressed that you took the time and effort to replace it and that you tried to do the right thing.

Also as so many stated, the customer might have known it was a fake.

Either way your trying to do the right thing and that in itself should be commended.
 
Tell the customer you contact the artist to find out if heat mounting was ok.... they said yes, so when it screwed up you contacted the artist to tell them, then you found out it was a forgery?
 
PhotoKris. That, for sure, is a good one. The only problem I can see is if it actually ends up in court, and the artist does not recall my initial phone call. That would kinda make me into a big fat lier, wouldn't it? Actually, I'm not fat, still don't wanna be a lier, or at least risk getting caught being one.

Anything you say that can discredit your word can really go against you in a court room.

John
 
Oh what a tangled web we weave when first set out to decieve!
Kris you are naughty (but a good one)
If you said that the artist said it was okay to heat mount then wouldnt they be obligated to replace it?
 
Yeah, i'm not usually one for lying. This was someone else's suggestion. You did contact the artist to find out if heat would damage it... this just changed the order things happened in. But if you think it might end up in court, I would definitly be strait forward.

and yes, the artist would be responsible for replacing it if he had said you could heat mount it, but only if it was an original, i think.
 
IMHO, I think it would be best to tell the customer exactly what happened, just be perfectly honest with them. I really believe that if you just tell them the whole truth then the situation will resolve itself in the best way possible. Not to mention, all of this information is now in the public domain, and it's pretty hard to hide. John, I'm sure you'll know what to say when you actually get the customer on the phone. Sorry to hear about the situation, though.
 
OK, here is the update:

I called The Godard Co. this morning. They told me that the print was NOT a forgery. The print had been printed oversize to allow for gallery stretching. These people are great!!!! They are going to replace the print for me and it will be signed and numbered same as the original. All they wanted was for me to cut out the artist's signature and the number portion of the damaged print and a small amount of money to cover their replacement costs and mail it to them. We did that this morning. The customer has not called us yet, if they do, we will level with them. Otherwise, we will do the job as ordered and that will be the end of the whole mess, I hope.

John
 
Now if every company would be that great to work with the world would be a better place.

Glad things worked out for you. I hae never heard anyone say anything bad about Godard so i figured it would work out.
 
What was the damage to the first print? Did the publisher have any reasons for the problem?

Glad it is working out.
thumbsup.gif
I was just talking about it to my wife and getting worked up about what you were going to do.
 
Hopefully I will never find out what T.C. Corporation would do.

John
 
TK company replaced a print for me at a small cost. I don't think I had to pay shipping. We did have to go through a local gallery to get it done. It just took an excessive amount of time to get it back. I think the gallery was have financial problems.

I am really glad this worked out for you.
 
Good person makes good attempt to correct honest mistake, good result deserved!

Although John possibly doesn't feel so crash hot about this whole situation I must thank him for creating it and letting us see how to solve it with good ethics.
 
John, YOu may also consider sending them a "cookie gram of thanks. We had a simular dealing with Jane Wooster Scott LE that was damaged in a fire.

It realy gives you hope about our world.

Glad to here that all is turning out well.
 
Here we go again! The Godard Company had me cut out the artists signature and the print number. They have now received it and told us that the print was never made into an edition of 150, therefore, it is in fact, a forgery. We had told them the edition number at the very beginning of all this.

They want us to call them tomorrow so that they have time to consider what to do next. They also told us that they want what is left of the print returned to them.

In the meantime, before we knew it was a forgery, our customer called and inquired about the framing. We told her exactly what has happened and that a new print was on the way. The customer is aware that the print has an asking price of four thousand dollars on e-bay.

Now a new print is NOT on the way, we have cut out a huge section of her print, totally destroying what was left of it. I honestly do not know what to do next except cross my fingers and pray.

It's kind of like a soap opera, getting interesting with lots of cliff hangers.

John
 
Hmmmm.....

Well it sounds like to me that you both need something.

They want the forgery and you want a replacement. Neither of you is obligated to oblige each other. Sounds like a great scenario. Tell them that you will trade them the remaining print and all info you have on it's history for a replacement for the one you would have never carved up in the first place at their request.

As a side note tell them that they one they send you can be a forgery too if they choose


Please keep us posted.
 
Good Lord, John, what a mess! I have been checking in on your dilemma and was happy to read what I thought was a good resolution for you...until your last reply. I would have gone through three sticks of Arid Extra Dry by now! I hope it all works out somehow so that you and your customer are happy with the outcome. Fingers crossed for you...
 
Man I was excited for you then I scrolled down to see your last post. Sorry to see that it is still going on. They seem like nice folks. Tell them Picasso in the day would buy fakes that his friends created so he did not look bad. He would buy them from the customer and sometimes say he wanted to touch it up, then go home and repaint the whole thing. That guy is a mess. Maybe this fellow could hook a brother up?

GOOD LUCK

PL
 
Since the print was cut at the instruction of the artist - and not an "oops it was face down on the work table and I cut something on top of it" it seems to me that Goddard and Co. would be on the hook now for getting the customer some art with which she'll be happy.

After all - if she's led them to someone ripping them off and they recover damages they should be grateful, send her a new print AND cookies.

I'm sorry this is happening to you.
 
Wow, this thread is interesting from my perspective; it must be gut wrenching from yours, though.

Just a thought: if the Godard Company can provide you with something in writing that it is, indeed, a forgery, could you convince your customer to contact eBay and let eBay go after the seller for restitution?

Good luck in any event!
 
I just talked to the Godard Company. They are bending over back wards trying to keep everyone happy. They have found the source of the print. They are sending me a replacement, unsigned of course, they are also refunding the money I sent them.

These people are fantastic to deal with, a flat out pleasure, especially considering the load they took off my back. My customers are perfectly happy with the way everything has worked out. The Godard Company is also sending me a letter explaining everything so I can give that to my customer.

If you have ever thought about dealing with Michael Godard or his company, one thing is very clear, he and his company are extremely ethical and honorable, and a pleasure to deal with.

John
 
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