Stealing (?) customer lists

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celeste_k

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Joined
Mar 26, 2002
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pennsylvania
I was wondering if there are any laws in place that make it illegal for me to take the customer list from the shop I work in now, and send letters to all of them for a new shop, without the owners permission.... I'm not planning on opening my own store anytime soon, but if the opportunity should arise, I would be curious to see how it could be handled.
 
I don't know if it's legally wrong, but I think it's ethically very wrong. If you've given your notice and customers ask why you're leaving, you can say you're opening your own place. But other than that your best bet is to advertise.

I was once offered a position and the guy asked how many of my current employers clients would take with me. Slimy!
 
I don't know about Pennsylvania, but a mailing list in Ohio is considered to be the property of its owner.

If you are seriously considering this, please consult a lawyer and get the straight scoop before you risk getting into trouble.

Personally, I think it would be wrong to take the list without permission, even if it isn't illegal. Deception is seldom a good idea. You apparently plan to compete with your present employer, and taking such advantage might cause you problems down the road.
 
I do agree that the customer list is the property of your owner....he paid for it when he bought the business, and it is one of the main reasons why he is doing business. (And I think some people would react negatively to an ex-employee who sent them mailers based on that list, even if they liked you.)

However, if you were leaving, I would see no harm in letting customers know that you are leaving. And where, and why. And the reason I say this is because I have lost more than one really good hairdresser because they were not allowed to say when/where they were leaving....one day I'd call to make an appt., and the receptionist would say, "She doesn't work here anymore."

And they wouldn't tell me where she'd gone.

And what they were assuming is that I would continue to patronize that salon anyway...but I don't patronize Salon X because I love the salon, I patronize them because I love one particular stylist. Lose that stylist, lose me. So what's the harm in telling me where she went? I think it's pointless and bad business, and I have yet to return to any of these salons.

If you have "regulars" who come in because you're there, let them know you're leaving. I think that's as far as you can ethically go.
 
Maybe a fair response would be is to assume you have opened your shop, and in about 5 yrs of touigh effort and work, one of your employees does the same thing. What would your reaction be then? If it would be wrong then, it would be wrong now
 
So Audrey,

Should you let those customers know while he is still paying your salary? Perhaps you should reconsider that advice. As a business owner that would not sit well with me. That would be a fast boot to you know where if I caught wind of it. So I guess I disagree, that is interfering with the current business and ground for at least dismissal if not more.
 
Everyone's advice is good. When you open a new shop (if done well) everyone will know anyway. Then you may get some of the old clients and hopefully a whole lot more too! As many clients you may get the other way would be good to start but, if you only make a few mad and get a bad rep. from only a few that is worse than 50+ good clients. I BELIEVE STRONGLY IN, WHAT COMES AROUND GOES AROUND! Good luck!

Chaz
 
So, you would consider ripping off your present employer. Is he/she the person who taught you the craft?

How about when you get your shop going, are you going to rip off your customers as well?
To save money, since your unethical anyway, couldn't you sell conservation framing & conservation clear glass, then, just use regular glass and paper mats. New businesses are always
strapped for money, doing unethical framing will help you get going, right? I mean, if your willing to steal from another frame shop, wouldn't you be willing to steal from your customers and suppliers as well?

Our industry is built on ethics, people trust us with their treasures. Please, look for another profession that more suits your kind of thinking.

John
 
The most unethical suggestion I've heard for quite some time. If someone were to send me info (e.g. mechanic) about their new business from a stolen mailing list I would make a point of telling everyone not to go there, heck I might even consider going the distance to hire outdoor signage near the location with money from my own pocket telling others what had happened.
Rude...

Lance Enevoldsen
 
I imagine there are industries where this type of activity would be considered normal - maybe even acceptable. I thank God I'm not working in one of them.

There are really three questions here regarding stealing (and yes, that's the right word) an employer's mailing list:
</font>
  • Is it legal? (In other words, can I get away with it?) </font>
  • Is it moral or ethical? </font>
  • Will it help your new business, if and when that happens? </font>
I'm unclear about the first issue, though I'd be very surprized if your future former employer wouldn't at least have grounds for a substantial law suit. The answer to the second question should be obvious. This isn't even a grey area.
The third question is most interesting to me, as I had this very thing happen to me. A former employee who went to work for another shop sent letters to 5,000 or so of my customers implying that The Total Picture would soon be history and urging them to see her at her new employer's shop. Ironically, I would have told anyone who asked exactly where they could find her. She was one of the best designers and framers I've ever known and she did have a following. But people were so appalled by the letter that they'd bring it to me and ask why I wasn't suing. Perhaps it's just a coincidence that neither the framer nor the people who hired her are in the framing business today.
Celeste, I don't know you and I won't judge you. Maybe your question was strickly hypothetical - some kind of test. But it reminds me of why, after 18 years of being an employer, I decided to work alone for the rest of my framing career.
 
Hmmm, the topic is "Stealing (?) customer lists". Let's see, I do believe that's one of the "TEN". "Thou shall not steal..." Nope, don't think I'd touch that one.

Betty
 
Talk about opening a can of worms!!!!!!
Maybe I should give a little background on the situation before I get called a lousy, unethical cheater again. First off, I always thought that using customer lists like that was a little shady, but about a year ago, I was trying to get my grandmother into one of those fancy assisted living places and she was on a waiting list.... One day I got a phone call from the lady who had been handling her case, and she mentioned that if we went to this other place, she could get in right away (it was a place that she had just opened).... I thought this was a little odd, so I called the place she had been working at and they told me it was perfectly OK that she was calling their clients. The two places were not related and it wasn't a life or death situation that she got in right away....
That is what lead me to ask if it was LEGAL to use customer lists.... not ethical... just LEGAL.
Odds are I will never own a frame shop, it's a little too risky for me. I am fine with being an employee.
As for some of the responses I got for my oh-so unethincal question.... thanks to those who took the time to explain it, legally and ethically... but for those who took this opportunity to make me feel like a unethical, cheating, lying, you-know-what.... I now must pause and reconsider if the risk of asking a dumb question and getting humiliated is worth the valuable information that many people on this list give. It happened once before when I mentioned that I would hesitate to permanently mount a sheep-skin and was told that nobody should even call themselves a framer if they can't mount a sheepskin the old fashioned way....
So much for a forum of your peers.
 
You seem to be somewhat chapped about the consequences of picking such a delicate scab, but it was certainly a legitimate question with an essentially unanimous answer (from the point of view of active framers and business owners).

I guess you just accidentally picked these thorny issues. You shouldn't have been called a non-framer for not mounting a sheepskin the old-fashioned way or whatever the subject was. I must confess that I don't remember it.

The subject which triggered your question, though, seems to me to be an invalid comparison. It would appear that the first assisted living home had enough of a waiting list that they felt they could afford to display some largesse toward another which had plenty of space. In another environment where they were each working to fill the place, however, the response may have been completely different.

Finding folks a place to live with dignity when there's available space is an exemplary case of specific cooperation more than a general solution to any scenario.
 
Celest, perhaps it is the way you word your questions. I re-read your original question & I could find nothing about your grandmother or institutions that had given their blessing to another institution. You asked a question that plainly read that you are considering stealing your bosses mailing list, then you find offense in some of the answers you got. Those kind of questions are called "Set Ups", the answers could have been predicted by the wording of your questions. After you recieved the expected answers, it gave you an excuse to dump on the people who responded to them, myself included. Maybe you should have a friend read your questions before you submit them.

John
 
I was just replying to the topic of the thread. Perhaps you meant to word it differently. If, however, it is ever, in any context, thought of as "stealing" you should have been able to answer it yourself. It doesn't matter what the "law" has to say, if it's morally wrong, one can never "yeah, but.." it.

As in the case of the assisted living facility, the customer list was not stolen, a service that could not be provided in one place was referred to another. Right now, I'd happily send customers to another caner, if there was such a person. My customers are having to wait for 2-3 months. You yourself said that "they told me it was perfectly OK that she was calling their clients." That's customer service, not stolen customers.

John's right, perhaps you just need to have someone read what you write. The trouble with forums and e-mail is that intent isn't always understood. If we misunderstood you, then we're (or I'm) sorry. But man, "stealing" is a strong word, and it's never ok.

Betty
 
Al,

If I were the owner of ABC Framing, I'd have no problem with that one. I considered putting a sign in my new frame shop 25 years ago that said, "Ron Eggers, formerly of SCUBA Incorporated, Houston and The Diver's Den, Santa Barbara" but I wasn't sure that would impress my new clientel.
 
Hi Celeste...
Yes, in some states there are specific laws regarding what is and what is not company property... ie: copyrights, business stationery, even "ideas". So for a real answer to your real question, I'd check with an attorney. Regardless of the legal issue, there is the "employment" issue. Using a company's mailing list without written permission could also get you fired, with a bad reference for future employment.

There are other ways to get a good mailing. Your employer might even "sell" you the right to use the list (get this in writing). Most mailing lists are sold - hence, a world full of telemarketers!

Marketing tools are a very valuable asset for most companies, so be kind to yourself and get written permission.

Hope this helps.

Matoaka
 
What about the customers who specifically come in to see you? They want to deal with you and no one else. Is it unethical to send them a letter letting them know you have moved? As with the hair dresser analogy, it wasn't the shop, but the employee. Do we hope that these select customers will find our new location, or run the risk that they will find someone new?
 
I would make a distinction between contacting a few special customers who's names you happen to remember and physically copying (on company time, no less) thousands of names and addresses from store records or copying a computer database. But, as I already said, I never had any reluctance to tell a customer the whereabouts of a former employee who had simply moved on. I only want happy customers. If someone is happier or more comfortable with someone who is now working elsewhere, I would draw a map. Likewise, if someone has a project that I know another shop can perform more effectively, I will make that recommendation. I don't think that makes me exceptional, but it means that my customers will trust me to watch out for their best interests.

Celeste, I still believe your question was hypothetical, though unfortunately worded. It's a sore subject for some of us, but obviously a hot topic.
 
An interesting case was heard in the US and Irish courts recently regarding one of the founders of a software business (a big player of Irish origin) this guy was a Director and major share holder of the original business, he left to start his own new business but remained a on the board of the original business as an active Director.

He was taken to court as the original businesses suggested he was stealing (they used different and more sensitive language) CUSTOMERS and EMPLOYEES to his new business, the out come was that the courts deemed that CUSTOMERS AND EMPLOYEES belong to no one and ruled against the original business, my understanding is that this is being appealed in the US but will stand in Europe, he remains a major shareholder of the original business but has resigned his position as a Director.

This case took place in Boston US and in Dublin Europe.
 
I realize I've already had WAY too much to say on this thread, but this subject has had more effect on my business than any topic mentioned on TG since I've been here. It was really only the inept handling of my stolen mailing list that prevented it from seriously damaging my business, so I have some strong feelings about this.

Dermot, that IS an interesting case. I can certainly believe that customers and employees belong to no one. But customer <u>records</U> and employee <u>records,</u> whether hand-written, type-written or electronically filed, belong to the employer. My customer records are a tangible business asset - probably the most valuable one I have, other than my own experience (which will become worthless if I ever decide to sell the business.)

The only one who could steal these records without a Watergate-style break-in would be a current employee. If a framer approached me with customer records from another shop, I would call the other shop, in the presence of the framer, and squeal like a stuck pig.
 
Like a business, it takes years and years of hard work to build and acumalate a mailing list.

When a business is sold, the mailing list is considerd an important asset that would be transfered to the new owners. Mailing lists have a value that is reflected in the volume of the business they generate.

If an employee ripped off my mailing list I would have my attorney establish the value of the list, that value would be in the thousands of dollars. I would then call the police and have that employee arrested for grand larceny. I would do everything in my power to insure that the thief employee recieved some "hard" prison time. Failing that, I would take civil action against the person.

Call it what ever you want, taking the property of another without their permission is stealing. If your taking the mailing list, you might as well help yourself to some equipment and supplies as well, it won't add all that much additional time to your sentence.

I'm sorry about my hard nose attitude, but the whole idea just pisses me off. You provide some one with a job, you teach them a craft that will feed them the rest of their lives. and then they want to STEAL from you. Give me a break, it's absolute bull.

John
 
Personally, I have to question the maturity and integrity of anyone who would even THINK it was ok to do such a thing. I'm shocked that you would actually feel the need to ask if it is ok, hypothetically asked or not. You should be ashamed for even asking. I'm sure your Mother would slap you silly if you asked her the same question. On the other hand... you seem to have a promising career in politics. Good luck to you in your new profession. :mad:
 
As self appointed "peacekeeper of the Grumble" I see no reason to get out the Grumbler handshake here. There is nothing to save here. "Stealing" is the key word.
I agree with Ron on this one. I haven't had an employee steal from me personally, but they have from the companies I work for. I've always tried to have a positive fun workplace. It is bad enough when they steal supplies, I take it very personally. You bring someone in and train them and give them your knowledge and all I have ever expected is a fair days work in exchange. I don't consider myself even remotely naive. The last company I worked for an employee tried to create a fake work order in the computer. The person I was training to do paperwork noticed it seemed out of place, after investigating and questioning that person it was quite clear he had pulled a fast one. We took the art and hid it from him. He was in an absolute panic because the art didn't belong to him. I gave him every opportunity to come clean and he wouldn't. We finally had to corner him and he did confess. This person was one of the best framers I had ever worked with, not to mention somebody I considered a friend. It hurt me very badly that he would deceive me because I trusted him.

That happened 2 years ago and from that day on I swore I would never train another person again. I actually stepped down from my postion. This wasn't just one incident, but one of many over several years which made me realize how much you give of yourself by teaching your skill. I thought when I got my own store that I would always work alone and never have to worry about training another soul again. Just in the short time I have been here I now realize if I expect to grow I will need employees. Now the stakes are even higher, it will be my stuff you will be stealing. Please don't ever come work for me.

Sorry this rambled on a bit. The whole post just dredged up every crappy employee I ever had. I've got to say in general I always had a very happy group of people working for me, but boy oh boy it just takes one to flatten you.

Kathy
Out on a Whim Custom Framing
 
I’m not trying to cause any upset or suggest that stealing is in any way correct, the case I’m talking about and what I can understand of it would indicate that customer and employee records are worthless and just because someone has knowledge of them and uses them is not sufficient grounds to suggest they could or have stolen them, how can you steal some thing that is worthless????

The software business is worth billions of $ and the case was put to the courts as a trial to test the validity and value of customer and employee records, both parties were in agreement to test this case in court and both professionally and personally remain friends.

As a matter of interest customer lists have no monitory worth in the valuing of a business in Ireland but we do put a value on what is described as “The Good Will” of a business, Good Will would or could include a value of some sort that a customer BASE could bring to a business, I bought a business once with a customer or supposed customer list it was of very little value as most of the supposed customers did not want to do business with a new owner, I basically had to start from scratch and sell every one of the supposed customers as new clients, I would NEVER put any value on a customer list again, in my view customer lists are worthless.

Let’s go easy on this one I think Celeste_K was very brave to ask the question she did and it is a good warning to all that it is important to keep security checks on things other than just our stock in trade.
 
Originally posted by celeste_k:

Maybe I should give a little background on the situation before I get called a lousy, unethical cheater again.
I certainly don't consider you lousy or unethical. In fact, I think it was right smart of you to test out your notion on us Grumblers. It is the idea of "stealing" that got our panties in a twist. Just that idea, that's all. Not you, not your question, I think. In fact, someone truly unethical wouldn't give a rat's you-know-what about what we-all thought. The vehemence of our collective reply should indicate to you how serious all of us take this issue. It's a biggie.


Odds are I will never own a frame shop, it's a little too risky for me.

Owning and running a frame shop or any business is extremely risky- fraught with peril, you might say. That's why we feel so strongly about this. If you ever do get to this point (you never know-- I remember saying exactly what you said.. "I will never...!") you will feel the same way we-all do. Just that you are on this forum at all puts you head-and-shoulders above the average employee.


...before when I mentioned that I would hesitate to permanently mount a sheep-skin and was told that nobody should even call themselves a framer if they can't mount a sheepskin the old fashioned way....
So much for a forum of your peers.

If I recall, you (and all of us) got A LOT of good information on that thread. I wouldn't be sour-grapes about that... it was a great thread for all who read it. And you started it!
:D
I don't think any less of you now, your question hit a touchy nerve, that's all. I happen to feel the same way that most of these folks do. I hope you continue to ask the "hard" questions... they truly make for the most enlightening threads.

The Goddess Says:
"It's All Good."
-e da fg

p.s. Dermot, hun, we buy and sell lists all the time over here...! They must be worth something!
Click to expand...
 
VERY interesting thread!

I am one framer who has always worked alone so I can't say anything about someone "stealing" my list of clients from me. I would hope that my work is of sufficient quality to cause my clients to come to me and at least ask who the person is that is trying to lure their work away from me.

On another point, I moved my business 7 years ago about 20 miles east of my original location and it was like starting out from scratch again for me. I was conveniently located for many of my customers when I was in that town but they felt that, to drive 20 miles "in the wrong direction", ie., AWAY from their normal travelling direction to shop was too much for them. Had I moved 20 miles west instead of east towards the metro area where they all go to shop, they would have been happy to bring their work to me. But loyaly is thin here in the heartland and I guess they felt that it was an inconvenience to come here JUST for framing when they could go the opposite direction and do their framing AND their shopping in one trip. Thankfully many of them didn't feel this way. Point being, your database may work against you in your OWN business if circumstances don't suit your customers when something changes. Look through the archives and you will find instances of framers moving a couple doors away in the SAME mall and losing customers or having their customers lose them as a result of the move.

One more point on customer databases and their importance to a business, I am looking at a frame shop to purchase now and there are 2 assets of that business that are very important to me, the location of the business and the makeup and size of their customer database. Location is self explanatory but the database is also important because the move will involve a distance of over a thousand miles. I will be moving into totally new unfamiliar part of the country and it gives me some measure of comfort to know that I will have a list of prior customers to work from. As Dermot stated, it may be that I have to work all of them into believing in me and using me for their framing but I am prepared to do what has to be done to keep them in the fold. It is a very scary thought to pull up stakes and move that far without knowing a soul or knowing the makeup of the area. I will have to work hard to build a new business there but it will have a foundation of customer names to get me started. That is worth something to ME and I would hate to think that the database has been "hijacked" by a former employee and is no longer a viable list.

Framerguy
 
JRB--

In another thread, Celeste indicated that this owner bought the shop from the previous owner, and that she "came with the shop." The new owner doesn't know how to frame, and leaves her in charge. She also indicated that she is underpaid and that she gets no benefits and, if I recall correctly, no paid holidays.

So while I am not speaking for her, I think your response was a little hostile. And it is a hypothetical question anyway; she already said she isn't planning on opening a shop anytime soon.

I can fully appreciate an owner's position in this situation; of course you don't want an employee taking your customers. It is unethical and would probably not work anyway, as in Ron's situation. People do not react well to this sort of thing, and would probably not come to her shop.

I think the question sprang from curiosity, and we as Grumblers should not be quite so quick to judge someone for asking a question, since that is the purpose of this forum.

And Artlady...if she has regulars who say, "See you in two weeks!" or whatever, you're honestly telling me that she's supposed to say, "Yes!" when she knows she won't be there? Because she's on someone else's clock? I think that's silly. The choice will still be up to the customer as to whether or not to "follow" her; I think it's only fair to let customers know where their main liason in the shop has gone....since she has already said she runs the shop for all they know.

So I think everybody needs to chill out a little bit. :D
 
Just a hypothetical question or two, Audrey...
In the next year or so, when Rick gets his shop up and running after years of planning and let's just say this very question gets asked yet again... perhaps by an employee and New Grumbler he trained and is on her way to a shop in the next neighborhood... How do you speculate he would answer?
Okay for this employee to tell "her" customers that she will be moving on to Clumsy Clete's shop?
Even when Employee is wrapping up a sale in his shop with one of his long-time customers? Or how about when Employee runs into Ms. Loyal Customer at the local Pizzeria? Is it ever okay?
What if Rick paid this Employee what Employee viewed to be a low wage? Is it okay then? If he knew this,would he maybe have a moment or two of feeling protective of the assets of his business and perhaps even hostile?
Strictly hypothetical, you understand, but it got me to thinking... :confused:
E the fg
(broke my promise to myself to stay outta this one) :eek:
 
Audrey, " little Hostile", I hope it came off more than a LITTLE hostile. I don't like a thief, I don't like people who contemplate thievery.

It's the same as someone walking out of your bar without paying their tab, or sitting there just joking about doing it, it ain't one bit funny. How about ripping off your tip jar when your not looking, or just joking about doing it?

If you have to worry about a customer or fellow employee ripping you off, how can you enjoy your job? **** , you can't even go to the restroom without worring about whats going on out front.

Now that I've put you into the same situation, would you be a little hostile, a lot hostile, or just downright nasty to whoever was doing that to you?

A thief can wreck the morale of just about any organization they are part of. The airports don't like casual questions about bombs and I don't take kindly to casual questions about ripping off what could concievably destroy the value of my business and my livelyhood.

The reason I am being so mean about it is, I do not want her to take this lightly, it is a very serious proposition.

John
 
I am on the Board of Directors of a local non-profit theater company. It is improper for an officer of the corporation to utilize the mailing list (or any other asset) for personal gain. In New York State quite a few lawsuits against corporate directors have involved this particular conflict of interest. Although I am not a lawyer it seems to me that the misappropriation of an employer's mailing list would be actionable.
 
Is whose mind is a wage too low? If an employers estimation of a wage is one number and an employees estimation of a wage is another perhaps higher, who is correct? The perception of a situation is not justification for an inappropriate activity.

When one leaves an organization the appropiate and respectful response is to just tell the customer that they are moving on to a new position and that the replacement will be taking good care of them. This is not high school we are in the real world. These people are not are chums they are the clientele that someone has worked hard and spent money to persuade to do business with them.

As for main alliances, customers want to work with the person who gave they gave their money to. It is a common trait of a design process. It does not mean that a certain designer is better and therefore deserves to tell customers that she is leaving and where she went. It means that the boss spent money to earn the business of that customer and hired that employee to service that customer. The employee is not hired to self serve in an fashion.

When a question is asked the person asking needs to be prepared for any response. Remember no one can make someone feel bad. That is a very personal issue.

So what goes "chill out" mean? Some opinions are too something? Perhaps we should all contact posters to ask before we respond to see if the chill person poster thinks that a comment is too strong? That perhaps someone does not agree with a comment? Perhaps in an open forum opinions should be kept to oneself? Perhaps there is only one person that should have the right to comment? Perhaps in someone's perception the opinions have reached too strong an emotional level? Perhaps this question should be handled in a manor dictated by a peer poster? I guess in my mind there is nothing wrong with a little spirited debate. What a great one this has been.
 
Sorry, here I go again . . .

For many years, a guy named Steve (who worked for Dean) came to my shop and washed the windows once-a-week. He did a terrific job and was always friendly and personable. Steve came to me one day to tell me he was opening his own window-washing service and someone else from Dean's would be washing my windows.

Now in case you don't know this, commercial window-washing is a very competitive business. It takes a LOT of cutomers to actually make of living at this. Yet when I told Steve I didn't want someone else washing my windows - I wanted him, regardless of who he worked for - he told me that wouldn't be right, but thanks for the thought.

I assumed he had some sort of written agreement with Dean. I asked Dean about this after I'd known him a few years (he's been washing my windows himself) and he told me that there was no agreement in place, that Steve is just a very ethical window-washer and that they are still friendly competitors and they both keep pretty busy.

You can learn a lot from a window-washer if you pay attention.
 
There are few things that I think any more stupid than the phrase "chill out". I put it right up there with "whatever" and "get a life"

How arrogant must we be to suggest that someone else "chill out"? Debate is good when it is kept to a higher level. How "unchilled" are we to suggest that someone else is not.

If everyone needs to "mellow out", we wouldn't have a Grumble
 
I must admit I didn't expect the response I got to this question. I also must say that I probably should have phrased it differently. I fully realize that if I up and left this shop and started my own, and mailed cards to all my old customers, it would seriously harm the old business, if not put it out of business... not only because I think some of my "favorite" customers would come with me, but the current owner isn't very good at framing, and would be scurrying to find a replacement for me, (I am the only employee here)... I know this would be wrong, and frankly, I'm not sure how I would handle leaving this store at all, I almost feel as if I should give him two months notice, so he has time to find someone and I can train them. But thats a whole other story.
JRB hit the nail on the head. I am a little disgruntled at the current situation here, but I guess it could be worse....
PS My sincere apologies for my hostility in the previous post, I am a few days into quitting smoking :mad: , I should lay off the grumble on my bad days....
 
Originally posted by Audrey Levins:
JRB--

In another thread, Celeste indicated that this owner bought the shop from the previous owner, and that she "came with the shop." The new owner doesn't know how to frame, and leaves her in charge. She also indicated that she is underpaid and that she gets no benefits and, if I recall correctly, no paid holidays.
Click to expand...
Hey, I didn't know we were supposed to read her complete posting history before responding to her post. :confused: Give me a break! I don't care how underpaid or overworked you are. Get a new job!

Kathy
Out on a Whim Custom Framing
 
Whatever, Bob. Get a life!
I can say that because those phrases set my teeth on end, too. *shudder* :D :D

Celeste, I agree with edie; keep asking the hard questions and gird yourself for spirited discussion. Nothing wrong with that!

Hope your venting helped you through. See if you can negotiate a little better deal, or at least have the owner help you to understand why you can't.
 
A situation happened here recently which is remniscient of this thread. A local franchise which had an upper end store on a boutique type street changed ownership two years ago. On the day that the new owner took over, her 2 framers gave their notice, effective immediately. Apparently, she was left with no means to frame. Rumour from a very good source has it that these 2 framers also "stole" the client database. They opened up a store not far away in a high rent location that was one street away from all the walk-by traffic.
Business was good for them for the first year but after suppliers started to cut them off, they died a slow death.
Maybe some clients spread the word about their unethical behaviour but for whatever reason, they closed shop exactly two years into their lease. Nobody here was too upset about it. I tend to believe that what goes around, comes around.
I think that strong and emotional reactions to this thread are a result of a personal attachment to our business. This is a hard business and the work it takes to gain clients is long and hard. It took us five years of constant maintenance and many thousands of dollars to get a tight list of 500 people that purchase from us regularly and it makes my blood boil :mad: to think that someone that we took under our wing and trained would actually do that but I guess it happens all the time. What are you gonna do? Lock the database?
I think that to help prevent this from happening I would check references and make my employee sign some kind of non-competition agreement. It may not eradicate this from happening, but it will have it on paper.
I also think that this is a lesson for us owners to really keep a tight leash on our clients as well and stay involved with the everyday operations.
 
Lisa brings up a point no one else has, I believe: is there any way to "password protect" your database, like in Lifesaver, Fullcalc, etc? That would eliminate the problem, since, for me anyway, the only place my database exists is in my computer. :cool: :cool:
 
Well, I was just getting ready to say that in the South we call this "beating a dead dog". But then the topic takes a turn.

In Access, as well as QuickBooks, you can have a password. But then, I have a roladex with all my passwords right beside the computer! :rolleyes:

Betty
 
Mike,

My stolen customer records were hand-copied from paper copies of old orders in a file cabinet - a daunting task considering there were over 20,000 orders. Unfortunately, there is no reason to think the thief came in and did this on days off, so I was paying to be robbed over a very long period of time. So who DO you trust?

New records are in the computer, backed up daily and encrypted in such a way that, after a rare 3-day weekend, I can barely get into them myself. Paper copies are shredded after the orders are picked up. Plus, as I've said countless times, I have no employees.

And sure we're beating this to death, but maybe it will help keep just one Grumbler from getting robbed by a trusted employee. We should be thanking Celeste for re-introducing this topic.

Thanks, Celeste.
 
I always promise myself to stay away from what Ron calls "Frankenthreads," and then I end up in the middle of them anyway. :D

Look, I have never argued that an employee is entitled to their boss's customer list. We are all in agreement there. It's bad business, it's unethical, and I sincerely hope that no one here has ever/will ever do it.

My only "but" is the definition of what constitutes "stealing" customers. I do see a difference between letting your regulars know that you are leaving, and mass-mailing an entire stolen customer list.

And since JRB put it in "my" terms, this is how I see it; if the bar has lots of regulars, they are (almost) always there for the bartender, not the bar. And if my co-worker, who had her own regulars, was leaving to work at another bar, or to open her own bar, I would have no problem with her telling her regulars that. She's not "stealing" from me, or from her boss. She's just letting people know where to find her. It's a courtesy. She's not "running off with my tip jar."

And if I did leave the bar I work at, and was not allowed to tell anyone where I was going, if I saw one of my regulars outside of work, of course I'd tell them where I went. Whether they come to see me is up to them, but I don't work for the FBI, for heaven's sake.

So that's my only point. I do see a difference between stealing customer lists and letting your regulars know where you've gone.

And as far as "chilling out," I'm sorry that phrase offended everyone. I could have picked a better phrase, I suppose. And of course everyone is entitled to their feelings on this subject. Debate away. :cool:
 
Audrey, That's not a Frankenthread. THIS is a Frankenthread:

Betty, in the North, we say, "Beating a dead horse." Even in death, our dogs are treated with dignity and respect. That's why that picture of the hotdog pugs on Warped HAD to be taken in New Zealand.
 
I can think of few things with the potential to damage a business as much as having its mailing list fall into the wrong hands.

We have all heard statistics indicating that only 10 or 15% of American consumers have ever custom framed. Imagine the value of a list in which 100% of the people have custom framed.

Someone asked how a list could be protected. I would like to introduce the idea of "seeding" your list.

Simply put, you add a bunch of names to your list of relatives or friends. You spell their name in a unique manner (or with some identifier ie. 'Doctor' if they're not or a false middle initial) known only to you.

Then, you tell your friends and family members that if they ever receive a mailing from a custom framer other than you, they should call you at once. Check the mailing label and see if it matches your list. If it does, you have the beginning of an ability to track down the thief and bring them to justice (and possibly get some restitution.

I would seed the list without the knowledge of your staff and then inform them at a later time that you have taken this precaution. This will serve as a deterent.

It also doesn't hurt to have staff members sign a confidentiality statement in which they acknowledge that their customers and the mailing list are property of the store.
 
Interesting thread, particularly with regard to how an employer might protect this very valuable asset.

Although our POS computers contain a "slush pile" of every customer name since 1995 (some have undobtedly moved away and a few, I hope, are dead), my REAL, compulsively maintained database resides only in a computer at my home office. Unless someone in my family decides to rip me off to start their own framing business (I think they know better by now) I'm probably safe.

Old work order hard copies are filed and kept on hand at the business since we need to refer to them from time to time.

I guess the "slush" database could be copied, as could the work order paper copies, but this raw data is much less accurate and comprehensive than the real thing.

In a personal-service business, the customer list is a critical asset. Taking it would be no different than taking money from the cash register.
 
Originally posted by Audrey Levins:
I do see a difference between letting your regulars know that you are leaving, and mass-mailing an entire stolen customer list.
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Really.........what's the difference? A thief is a thief is a thief. If you can't create your own business without starting off with "loading the deck in your favor" than what is the point? The person taking the data was so unsure of their own skills that they felt the need to assure that a few people would "follow them"?

To be perfectly honest, this is NOT the hair dressing industry, where two things differ..... 1) Hairdressers act as independent subcontractors in many of the shops we frequent, and .....2) The employees we have in that industry indeed have a personal relationship that has little bearing on the establishment.

Regardless of the personal relationship that is established, too many framer employees leave an establishment thinking that the place will "Fall apart without them".....in truth, the business that they leave typically survives and moves on, and grows.

I fully realize that if I up and left this shop and started my own, and mailed cards to all my old customers, it would seriously harm the old business, if not put it out of business... not only because I think some of my "favorite" customers would come with me, but the current owner isn't very good at framing, and would be scurrying to find a replacement for me, (I am the only employee here)...
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celeste_k...As soon as any employee believes that they are irreplaceable, they soon find out that they are indeed replaceable! Despite your skills, which I'm not questioning, you will find that if you do leave, your "incompetant owner" will get smart real quick and find an eager and passionate framer to take your place......

..."mailed cards to all my old customers"....
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celeste_k...These are NOT "your" customers.....they belong to the owner of that business. It's an old concept, called respect!

In a personal-service business, the customer list is a critical asset. Taking it would be no different than taking money from the cash register.
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bearcat99, You've pretty much summed it up with that last statement.

John
 
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