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Marine Framer

Grumbler in Training
Joined
Jan 23, 2004
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14
Loc
Manassas, VA
I will be retiring from the Marine Corps in a few years. I want to start building my framing business now. I have two thought processes on how I aquire equipment and need some feedback from professionals. Should I start with the very basic equipment (i.e. small Logan hand mat cutter and T-square and hand held glass cutter, etc.)? Or should I get better (but used) equipment (60" mat cutter, wall mounted glass/foam board cutter etc.)? I have taken a 5 day framing course and am familiar with using the equipment but should I start investing in good equipment now when I will only have a few (2-3) jobs per month? I want to start to build my customer base now by doing jobs for fellow Marines so I can get my work out and gain customers by word of mouth. This way I will hopefully have a good customer base when I start framing full time. Any advice will help.

Thanks,
Marine Framer
 
I am trying to do the same thing. My plan is to get my hands on any decent used equipment that I can.

I made a list of large pieces of equipment that I would need, and a list of small tools. I priced the equipment for the prices new and estimated used prices. Basically just a checklist. It worked out that if I bought everything used, I would save thousands.

I have a plan to buy only the minimum equipment needed. (Hopefully all used.) (I will even start by ordering assembled frames). As the business grows, I can purchase more equipment and /or upgrade to better equipment. Piece by piece; to bring my costs down and my profit up. This week I bought an old mat cutter. It was cheap, but it works. It's less of a financial risk than a new cutter, as it will pay itself off much faster.

Anyway, these are just some of my ideas as I am in the same boat as you. Good luck.

K. Roddick
 
Occasionally someone starts out by buying an existing business complete with equipment or moves into a family business, but I bet the majority of us started our own business from scratch. When I started, I bought a good, new professional-grade mat cutter and a corner vise. That, with a hammer & nails, screweyes, 2 rolls of wire (heavy & light), didn't cost all that much. Then as things went along, I picked up something new when I could afford it. Next I bought a drymount press (THAT puppy paid for itself pretty quickly), then a pneumatic nailer, then a hand-driven underpinner. But those came years after I opened up.

So get just a few basic things, but get good quality. I still have the corner vise.

You can job out what you can't do right away, but put together your own frames. You have more control of the finished product.
 
When I was a young man, I taught guitar lessons. ( :rolleyes: Oh, geez, here he goes AGAIN!)

Often, a new student would show up with a "student" guitar. His/her parents didn't want to invest in a good one until they found out if the kid was truly interested.

The problem was, a steel-string guitar with a neck the size of the Brooklyn bridge and strings 2" out would make ANYONE lose interest almost immediately. It's really hard to play, "Foxy Lady" when your fingers are bleeding and your hands are cramping up.

Some framing equipment is like that. The Stanley miter vise that Ellen mentioned has served framers well since Moses took those stone tablets to a framer for a shadowbox. (They needed restoration, too.) They're not fancy and they won't handle those 5" mouldings you hope to sell someday, but they last forever and they do the job. Most important, they won't make you regret your decision to frame pictures. Most/all of the miter vises you can buy at Home Depot will.

Be careful of used equipment that is just, plain worn out. I've never replaced a mat cutter that could still cut good mats. But if I wanted to wear out - or damage - my Stanley vise or my AMP miter sander, I can't imagine how I'd do it.

My best advice would be to do this 30 years ago. Things were simpler then. My initial investment for NEW equipment was around $500.
 
I would invest in a GOOD, QUALITY Mat cutter, not used unless it was from a shop that closed or retired and were still using it.

You can buy chops or joins, you can cut backing and glass with hand tools and a T square, but if the Mat looks like Crap the whole job will look like Crap, MHO.
 
I'm always leery of "used" anything. Unless, like Jerry said, someone is going out of business, you have to wonder why they bought something else.

When you buy new, you have all the warranties and the supplier to go to if you have a problem or question.

Sure, there are different levels of quality and different levels of volume needs. I would (and did) buy lower volume equipment to start with and by the time I needed higher volume equipment, the equipment I had needed replacing as well.

My advice (for what it's worth) buy the best that you can buy for the level of framing you realisticly expect to be doing in 3-5 years.

Betty
 
Unless you come across a deal that you just can't turn down, I think you would be better off starting a savings account for your start up capital. Once you start your business, anything you purchase will be a business expense, therefor tax deductible. Anything you purchase now comes out of your pocket.

If your **** bent on acquiring equipment, then purchase the best you can afford, don't buy something that,as Ron said, will just frustrate you. If your going to buy a manual mat cutter, get a Fletcher. If your purchasing a miter saw, get a good commercial grade one, like CTD. Stay away from Home Depot or Sears for your saws and equipment.

Like a good camera, it's all in the lens, bad lens, bad camera. Same holds true with miter saws, expect to spend at least $200.00 per blade, don't skimp here.

If your using saws, buy a dust collector. Your lungs are not young anymore, you gotta look after them. I learned that one the very hard way.

Good luck,

John
 
Welcome to the grumble fellow Marine.
Now that you have had your 5 day training you are now considered armed and Dangerous. Take your training further over the next two years attend at least one Professional Picture Framers trade show. Take some more classes read alot, consider taking a Certified Picture Framers Exam or Guild Certified Exam. Check this wed site out web page get all the booksyou may even try the videos. Also check out the educational classes for NY Decor show.
I actually cut the globe and anchor in mats we do for Marines. Looks so cool.

You Did not say who taught the class or where you it was taught. Are you stationed at Quantico? Does the Base have a frame shop? I know some bases have them. Good Luck stay alert.
good luck
(U S Marine Corps 1970-1976)
Semper Fi
 
Others have pointed out the folly of buying worn out, used equipment. Generally, they're right.

However, if you know what to look for, and you know how to rebuild it, and the parts are available, then you can get professional-grade equipment for a fraction of the price of new. That's how I started out, and some of those original tools I rebuilt in the salad days lasted more than ten years.

Don't start out with hobby-grade equipment. It simply won't do what a good tool will do.
 
Marine framer,

Welcome to the Grumble! You have found the very best source of information that you need to answer many of the "real world" questions that I know you will have as you continue kyour training in custom framing.

Some points to consider:

1. Are you stationed in the immediate area where you expect to open your shop? If you build your database of customers from the marine base population, and move away from the area when you get discharged, will these people remain loyal to a framer that may have a shop 500 miles away? When your "customers" get a PCS change, will they still mail you their framing and be willing to pay the shipping on the finished work? Point is you might be better off building a customer base from the within the area that you decide to live after retirement.

2. Equipment: I started out about 16 years ago with a new art gallery/frame shop and I invested in all new equipment when I opened my shop. I still have all that equipment and it is all in fine condition after all these years. I did start out with a Logan mat cutter when I was framing from my home but I sold it shortly after I opened my retail shop.

I would follow the other advice you got here regarding buying used anything. You don't know how the equipment was maintained or how abusive the users were of the equipment. You may end up buying enough replacement parts to have purchased a new piece of equipment with warranty which would last a lifetime with proper care.

3. MOst important, attend all the training classes you can attend!! Subscribe to Decor magazine and Picture Framing magazine and watch for the trade show listings there. I attended the Decor show this past Sept. and took 7 classes even though I am considered an experienced framer. You are never to good to learn something new no matter how much you think you already know about framing. I will continue to be a student of custom framing until I hang up my mat cutter and grab my fishing rod.

Good luck and keep asking questions!!

Framerguy
 
i am looking down the same road...and i have picked up some small pieces of equipment here and there. the largest thing is a drymount press, a good deal could not pass it up. i have most of the hand tools, 40 inch mat cutter, drills, a miter saw(cheap model given to me) and the most important thing trying to get more knowledge. i bought over $100.00 worth of books over the holiday season, went to atlanta to take classes, plan to go to new york, philly, and possibly atlanta again. i have also just got a job with someone that is really well respected and does quality work. set yourself up with someone you can learn alot from.
better to be overprepard than to look foolish!

good luck
d
 
i always tend to agree with framerguy.

a professional is someone who enjoys their craft so much that they want to better themselves and others around them.
listen to ron, bob, framerguy, pamela, and there are a bunch of others that will give you some good advice. sorry if i forgot anyone.

d
 
I need to say something additional about buying equipment.

I have always believed that the "tools of your trade" were the lifesource of good work and finished products no matter what vocation or craft area you chose to pursue.

When I was in the Autobody Repair trade (33 years), I bought the very BEST tools and equipment that were available and, when new stuff came out that was better than what I owned, I bought it. Those tools were the basis of my work and its quality. I couldn't do top quality work with off brand body hammers or some piece of used equipment like a MIG welder or a frame rack.

The same holds true for framers. No matter what anyone will say about this, the quality of tools you use for your framing procedures will reflect the quality of your finished product. If you try to get bky with less expensive or used equipment and tools, you will find yourself constantly trying to compensate for their inadequacies or lack of function or shoddy manufacture or poor handling by the previious owner. Why jeopardize the quality of your product as a framer by compromising on the very tools that you will depend on for your livlihood??

I dont know much about lighting up a Saturn rocket to make it take off for a space shot but I DO know about hand tools and woodworking equipment and I know that if you start off with good tools and take proper care of them they will make your job alot easier and will probably outlast you as a framer.

Framerguy
 
Thanks for all of the advice. I will be retiring in the area where I am currently stationed (Quantico). The base does not have a frame shop. I took the framing course at Complete Framers Supply in Ft Lauderdale and it was taught by a Pam MacFadden who owns a shop in Miami. I bought the Vivian Kistler 6 book library and have a subscription to Decor. I am considering attending trade shows but will have to work around work and my husband's job. I am anxious to get started and want to buy equipment slowly. My husband didn't think I should start buying equipment yet but I think the advice you all have given me will convince him that I should at least buy a quality mat cutter. I think I can resist the urge to buy anything else that is considered a big investment until I get closer to retiring (2008). I will start the savings account to build my capital. Is anyone familiar with the Phaedra mat cutter? I saw an ad in Decor and it looked very interesting.

Thanks again for the advice.

Semper Fidelis (Always Faithful)
Marine Framer
 
I have only seen demostrations on it at trade shows and have "played" with it to see how tight the machine was and it seems like a solid mat cutter.

I have used their mitering table from day one and have had no problems with it's accuracy, ease of calibration, or day to day operation. The only real operational part of the Phaedra saw system is the saws themselves. My saws have been loyal to me for 16 years and, other than the noise that a chop saw puts out, I have no complaints with the system. I have made 2 moves with my gallery/frame shop since I opened business and it was a simple matter to just hook up the tables to the saws and begin sawing. Once they are calibrated they automatically stay in calibration because of the way they attach to the saw mounts.

It's a good cheap way to start out with a saw system and, for me, has been my saw system of choice for many years.

Framerguy
 
Originally posted by Framerguy:
...If you try to get by with less expensive or used equipment and tools, you will find yourself constantly trying to compensate for their inadequacies or lack of function or shoddy manufacture or poor handling by the previious owner. Why jeopardize the quality of your product as a framer by compromising on the very tools that you will depend on for your livlihood??
Click to expand...
Tom makes a good point, that the quality of your work is limited by the quality of your tools (among other things).

Moreover, it's also important to properly maintain your tools. Note that a new tool is no longer new, once you use it. After that, its useful life depends on how well you take care of it. I use some 10-year-old tools daily, which function better than 1-year-old tools that are poorly maintained. No matter whether it's new or old, clean it. Lubricate it. And check frequently to be sure it is tightly assembled and properly adjusted.

Starting out with new equipment is the best way if (A) you can afford it, and (B) you are absolutely certain you know what you want. I have bought several gently used framing tools from photographers and hobby-framers who bought items they didn't need, or which were inappropriate for their uses.

You seem to be doing good research on your needs, and that's the right thing to do.
 
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