Resolved Stacked Moulding - Screw or Glue or Screw the Glue?

[Jleschak]

I do an occasional stacked moulding. Early ones i would just glue and clamp overnight and then I cut on the frame square after it is combined. My reason was mostly that I would get the best miter that way, but probably not the case. Just curious how others do it. Do they make each frame separately than put the inside into the outside one, and then secure or do another way? When I make float frames from scratch, i join the vertical with a rabbit for the horizontal support, than just glue the horizontal into the rabbit; that seems to be the best and simplest solution after various methods tried. This is similar, I guess I could just do it the same way and just screw secure (fearing a screw and glue with clamps might break corner joints if there is any play)…glueing I am thinking is just overkill. I could use some Z-clips, but i prefer a smooth backing and rarely is a Z-clip the perfect height. If i have excess available, I will rip the inner moulding to make it flush with the outer moulding but if it sticks out more than 1/8” or so, I am making a tapered filler (saw in another post or something).

So…
Glue only, Screw Only or Both?
Attach the sticks before you miter and join or after?

Right now, I am planning to join them separately than countsink screw them from the inside of the inner rabbit, placing screws around 10” apart or so. All probably work ok, so just looking for opportunity to fine tune my methods and use less glue in the processes where appropriate.

TIA, John

 

[wpfay]

The short answer is, yes.

The technique used in stacking is really dependent on what you are trying to stack. Having a number of techniques available allows for you to select the best one for the challenge at hand.

I'm not inclined to do a glue join except for fillets, or in the rare event I am stacking raw wood that will be finished later. Prefinished mouldings get some form of mechanical fastening.

There are some pretty interesting threads on stacking if you want to do a little research.

 

[Jleschak]

Yeah, I searched for stacked and stacking moulding but oddly everything was about v-nail stacking. Searched for just stacking and finally found 1 thread I think started by Shayla which had some good info.

I guess answer is do what situation needs. Thanks for the deep thoughts.

 

[alacrity8]

Coming at this from years in the future, when a new customer decides they want to use only one of the frames in question, what would I as the new framer prefer that the old framer had done? I would prefer that they had used a mechanical fastening (preferably screws), not glue.

We have at least 1-2 dozen projects a year where a customer wants to reuse part of an old frame.
Being able to easily take them apart is very helpful.
I hate when a frame and liner are attached by toenailing nails.
It makes it harder for me to safely separate the frames.
Glue, or a combination of glue and mechanical fastening would not be good.

I have on rare occasions glued a frame together with a liner (any inner frame).
That is less than once a year.
I couldn't say what situations I would find it necessary.

If the liner frame is sticking out the back of the primary frame, and the extra depth isn't requires, I will generally cut it down to fully fit within the primary frame.

 

[Jleschak]

Coming at this from years in the future, when a new customer decides they want to use only one of the frames in question, what would I as the new framer prefer that the old framer had done? I would prefer that they had used a mechanical fastening (preferably screws), not glue.

We have at least 1-2 dozen projects a year where a customer wants to reuse part of an old frame.
Being able to easily take them apart is very helpful.
I hate when a frame and liner are attached by toenailing nails.
It makes it harder for me to safely separate the frames.
Glue, or a combination of glue and mechanical fastening would not be good.

I have on rare occasions glued a frame together with a liner (any inner frame).
That is less than once a year.
I couldn't say what situations I would find it necessary.

If the liner frame is sticking out the back of the primary frame, and the extra depth isn't requires, I will generally cut it down to fully fit within the primary frame.

A practical, well thought out response . Thank you.

 

[Jleschak]

Coming at this from years in the future, when a new customer decides they want to use only one of the frames in question, what would I as the new framer prefer that the old framer had done? I would prefer that they had used a mechanical fastening (preferably screws), not glue.

We have at least 1-2 dozen projects a year where a customer wants to reuse part of an old frame.
Being able to easily take them apart is very helpful.
I hate when a frame and liner are attached by toenailing nails.
It makes it harder for me to safely separate the frames.
Glue, or a combination of glue and mechanical fastening would not be good.

I have on rare occasions glued a frame together with a liner (any inner frame).
That is less than once a year.
I couldn't say what situations I would find it necessary.

If the liner frame is sticking out the back of the primary frame, and the extra depth isn't requires, I will generally cut it down to fully fit within the primary frame.

I took your thoughts to heart and went back to the shop and prototyped the direction I am adjusting. Instead of screws going through the inside of the rabbit, I am only drilling holes through the back of the moulding, this allowing either the outer or inner to be used in future and easily disassembled. I tried the flat z-clips, but just too thick for my taste as well as too long, so I dipped into my special box and snipped off some linkages of black strap hanger (and incredibly versatile material in my tool box). I like it because a flat head screw will hold inside and not go through, lies about half the height of a flat z-clip (although they vary by mfr). And this technique could work for either deeper outside or deeper inside moulding, so it can be a one-size fits all (or most or many).

I did adjust my spacer on the shorter outer by only doing a 1/2 bevel, that way I had 1/2” flat working area on the spacer that would line up with the inner back surface. I could have also routed out 1/16” to accommodate, but they were so flat, didnt feel the extra effort was justified.

Thanks so much for your thoughts, they have an immediate impact. Hope you approve with the direction.
John

 

[Ylva]

In general, I use off set clips to put them together. There are 0/0 (flat) off set clips available as well. Easy to take apart for the next framer.

 

[Jleschak]

In general, I use off set clips to put them together. There are 0/0 (flat) off set clips available as well. Easy to take apart for the next framer.

I have the flat offset clips, but they have are maybe 1/16” thick and I wanted a lower profile. Same benefits of removal on my latest method.

 

[Prospero]

I do a lot of stacked combinations but mostly raw wood profiles which I glue together and add
a few toenailed pins to hold while the glue sets. I use piped non-solvent cartridge glue.

On the occasions where I use pre-finished moulding I cut/join the elements separately. Gluing the
lengths before cutting = a lot of waste on the inside moulding(s). In these cases I pin them together
in case later damage where they can be detached.

 

[Mary Beth van der Horst]

I almost always built each frame separately. On smaller stacks, I'll often just hold the accent frame in with framer's points after nesting together. If I want them to lend structual integrity to each other, I will take the time to screw them together with offsets, L clips, or some other kind of hardware. Least often, I'll glue them together--usually when hardware isn't a viable option due to the geometry or sometimes when I'm trying to center one frame inside of another precariously to show all of an accent detail(it helps to spot glue before screwing so it doesn't shift. As has been said, it all depends on what you're trying to stack!

 

[alacrity8]

I have the flat offset clips, but they have are maybe 1/16” thick and I wanted a lower profile. Same benefits of removal on my latest method.

Have you Tried 888 Hardware's Infinity Hangers?
They look very similar to what you made.

 

[Jleschak]

Have you Tried 888 Hardware's Infinity Hangers?
They look very similar to what you made.

Maybe i will order some on my next 888 order, I’ve seen them….the stuff i use i get off amazon and has multiple uses and a great utility material, this is the stacked 32x40 frame and use small link sections to secure the stacked frames and spacer, along with using it as a cross brace, knowing its not rigid structural, but when I need to just keep the frames from bowing out and dropping the backing/mount off the spacer, its been invaluable….and cheap…and versatile.

This attached is the end result of using the strap hanger and spacer on the stacked frame. Hanging hardware will be 60# wall buddies.

 

[Rick Granick]

I am a huge fan of Infinity Hangers, and sent a few samples to Peter when he first started 888, encouraging him to make them. They are useful for so many things, not the least of which is a permanent substitute for screw eyes. One of my favorite uses for them is bending them into small offsets for mounting signed drum heads. If you use the silver ones, they kinda look like the hardware on an actual drum, and make the mounting completely reversible.

Similarly to your black strap hanger, I have rolls of plumber's pipe hanger tape in both metal and plastic. It is easily adaptable for many bridging-attachment uses. The metal version can be cut with tin snips and formed into thin offset clips.

Rick

BTW, When the customer picked up that Deep Purple drum head, his first reaction was, "DUUUUUUUDE!"