small moral delima

BILL WARD

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Mar 25, 2004
Posts
2,451
Location
Tampa, FL
had a customer come in with SB'd signed guitar/memorbilia -- the Boss & Band-- with plexi falling out all around("they" used a 'few' of those thin staples to loosely pin the plexi& front mats(2) to the top frame rabbit)...wants me to redo the plexi(NO problem).dont know what he paid for it but he's under the impression that its worth @10k........I talked him into replacing the plexi with OP3(it lives in sunny Florida!!!).

My delima is that the guitar was STAPLED (20 or so times) to the mat/FC backer!!!!!

Should I disillusion him of its worth(the piece
having been permanently damaged)???

complete the job & say nothing????

opinions please
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You have an obligation to tell him. If you redo it without saying anything and he decides to change the mat in five years with another framer, who's to say that you weren't the one who did the stapling?
 
I would mention to him (along with digital pics of the before job) that it was not done to your higher standards and if it was purchased at a memorabilia store these things usually aren't done as good as they should be.

I would complete the job how you would usually do it and that way your hands are clean and you cover your back at the same time.

The customer might be impressed that you value his art enough to do the right thing instead of the easy thing.

Well that's what I would probably do.
 
I'm with Maryann. If you don't bring it up, and someone else finds the damage in a few years, who's to say you might not be blamed for it?

If that guitar would otherwise be more valuable, the perpetrator (or whoever can be blamed for the damage -- you, in this case) might be required to pay compensation.

I would call him and say something like, "...Before we finish reframing your guitar, would you like us to consult a conservator about repairing the staple holes someone previously put in it? That damage reduces its value, so restoration and proper preservation mounting are recommended."
 
I'm with the others. Stop the job and tell him about it. He may want it repaired first.

Staples in the guitar? Plexi falling out? Thin staples to pin the plexi & mats to frame? Now that's a hack job! Can you post pictures. I gotta see that!
 
Who or what is SB'd?? The Boss and Band?? Is that Suse Bringstein??

You mean they actually took a staple gun and shot thru the mat board and FC into the body of the guitar??!!
faintthud.gif


I would call the customer RIGHT away and have him come in and show him what they did and explain that he might want to consult a lawyer to see what his recourse is as to the person who did this. You need to be as upset about this botch job as he should be. Get him riled up to sue the pants off the other person who did this!! Maybe that will teach them to learn how to do it properly before destroying a priceless guitar or anything else!

:eek: :mad: :eek:
 
In cases like this, it is wise to call the client
in and show them the piece, on the backing board,
to prove that you had nothing to do with this.


Hugh
 
If I were the customer I'd be livid! I mean devaluing a Suse Bringstien Gittar!

If I were the other frame shop I'd be running scared, doesn't Florida now have a new shoot-first law?
 
Whenever possible we like to dismantle reframing/repair jobs while the client is still with us ... that way they get to see any problems first hand. It's amazing how many ugly problems we encounter.
 
OMG-there are sirens going off in my head . Something along the lines of "CYA!" That, and oh, poor guitar! Bludgeoned into worthlessness by a staple gun.

In my experience with these "questionable whereabouts of the damage", my defense has been- call them immediately upon discovering awful damage, and as someone mentioned above, be just as horrified at the damage to them verbally as you were when you first discovered it. If you call them immediately, there is no way you could have caused the damage. (some sweet customers actually come up with this, you know, the ones that think they have no recourse on the first framer who wrecked their artwork) So, it could be your fault, in their mind.

The longer it's in your posession without notifying them, the longer you open yourself up to liability. I wouldn't touch it until the customer sees the condition. I wouldn't even trust photos to tell the story for you , just take them, or offer to let the cust. come take pics of the damage before you proceed.

Yikes, yikes, yikes. Good luck!
 
It might also be a good idea to enclose a note under the dust cover describing the damage, its cause, and that it was already there when you re-framed the piece.

Worst case: The customer decides to sell the de-valued guitar. New buyer or appraiser opens the frame to value the piece and discovers the damage. Looks at the framing and YOUR NAME is on it.

Kit
 
"While my guitar gently weeps...."

Of all the stupid things I've heard of....WOW.

Perhaps now is a good time for at least so the G's will know, there are many better ways to mount a guitar. We might need to go over that soon.

What kind of staple gun was this?
 
Hey, if they were stainless steel staples, no problem. Conservation all the way.

Signed,
Not a Springsteen fan.

Now if they did that to one of Jerry Garcia's guitars, I would be outraged.
 
Those tourist-area shops that specialize in "collectibles" always have their items displayed in shlocky framing- acidic overcut mats, glue globs, bad corners, etc. The only thing that surprises me about this story is that the staples held the guitar in place for so long.
Even if many of these items originally had been worth anywhere near what they are charging for them, they certainly wouldn't be after these framing jobs. The unsuspecting purchaser has no idea. Might as well just screw the stuff to the wall.
fire.gif
Rick
P.S.: If your customer paid anywhere close to the amount mentioned for this item, perhaps you could offer to serve as an expert witness should he decide to sue to get his money back. (I'd love to see the fine print on the "certificate of authenticity" he no doubt got with his purchase. It probably has some kind of weasel language like "this item sold for entertainment purposes only...no guarantee of future value...etc.)
 
Is that Jerry Garcia of the Dreadfull Great?? He was my favorite!!
 
None other Framah.

Jerome John Garcia, 1942/1995 RIP :cool:
 
Originally posted by CAframer:
Whenever possible we like to dismantle reframing/repair jobs while the client is still with us ... that way they get to see any problems first hand. It's amazing how many ugly problems we encounter.
Ditto - sometimes we watch the customers' jaws getting closer and closer to the counter. Then they realise it's not just framing, it's a rescue operation.

Win a lot of appreciation like this
 
I'm still picturing someone stapling a signed guitar to a mat...and thinking it's OK.... what were they thinking....
smileyshot22.gif

Oh, I'm going to have nightmares about this one... like the one I had the other night when there were bears outside the shop chasing the customers. This time they'll have staplers.
 
Rick just may be right. There could be a "collector" series of them made. Typically in assembly line fasion, just like furniture store framed art. One clue is when everything is held together with staples and glue. I doubt the guitar has or ever had any real value close to $10K.
John
 
Photographs and a full written report on ANY frame you open, even if it is just one photo and one word you must have a record - we always give the customer a copy also. We have built this into our dis/reassemble charge.
 
Happened to me on a Fazziano, the piece slipped while getting shipped to the Customer. The piece was done at a Gallery in Manhattan,as I took it apart, the packing was brown Corrugated board and nicely taped with a color coordinated brown Krafttape. I stopped right there and called the customer to please come by to see it, so that we can't get blamed for it. He was so thankful, yet I got a nasty earful from the CPF from Manhattan. Honesty is the best way.
 
A signed guitar unless it is a guitar actually owned or played by the individual typically adds only the true value of the guitar to the value of the signature. If the signature is worth 70 dollars let's say and you slap it on a ten dollar guitar then you have an 80 dollar piece. Granted if you find the right fan you can set your price but in actuallity it isn't worth what a fan is willing to pay. Now if you add $9,920.00 in framing then you get a 10,000 piece. Just out of curiosity was it an acoustic or an electric and what brand was it?

The one shown below was signed by Springsteen for a local rock radio charity auction and it went for $1100.00. I would like to think that had we charged for the framing it would have been in the 900.00 range. Add the $270.00 Guitar, the book value for the signature and I'd same the guy got a pretty fair deal.
springsteen.jpg
 
Originally posted by u2:
Happened to me on a Fazziano, the piece slipped while getting shipped to the Customer. The piece was done at a Gallery in Manhattan,as I took it apart, the packing was brown Corrugated board and nicely taped with a color coordinated brown Krafttape. I stopped right there and called the customer to please come by to see it, so that we can't get blamed for it. He was so thankful, yet I got a nasty earful from the CPF from Manhattan. Honesty is the best way.
Man if I hadn't taken that test and passed, I could join in on the negative connotation thing too! Especially since some unethical person also passed the very same test AND THEN decided to make a decision in which he should have most definately known was the wrong one. ;) :D

Sorry to give you a hard time. Welcome to the grumble!


anyway,

Bill- Good luck to you, I hope this goes okay. How do you plan on mounting this thing now? The closest thing we've had to mount as heavy and as large as a guitar was a shovel, but then we didn't know about acrylic mounts. You can get them custom made, but the prossess can take a while if you have something difficult.
 
Originally posted by Doug Gemmell:
Hey, if they were stainless steel staples, no problem. Conservation all the way.

Signed,
Not a Springsteen fan.

Now if they did that to one of Jerry Garcia's guitars, I would be outraged.
Yeah Doug, we save the Sillycone for Jerry...LOL
 
Originally posted by Angie Pearson, CPF:
... some unethical person also passed the very same test AND THEN decided to make a decision in which he should have most definately known was the wrong one. ;) :D
Good point, Angie. All of the qualification exams for framers are tests of skill and/or knowledge. None of them are tests of ethics or judgment. Sad to say, knowing better doesn't always mean doing better.
 
interesting thread reponses.....
got in touch with the owner...he's not the least bit worried about the "condition" of guitar---it's the signatures he's zeroed on....still didnt say where he acquired it....& they still do poor work!

still have a hard time with someone using staple gun on the guitar and almost NO support(used FC not GATOR behind the guitar), but then if they had used GATOR they would have had to mount it "more" properly, yes???
 
Originally posted by boxer1:
Granted if you find the right fan you can set your price but in actuallity it isn't worth what a fan is willing to pay.
Now I thought that was the textbook definition of "value". That is what you can get for it, not what some book or "expert" claims it worth.
 
True Jay... all I'm saying is that the "True Value" of a piece is likely not what some rabid fan paid for it in a memorabilia store in a Vegas Hotel (not that that's where it came from). 10,000 dollars for a signed Springsteen Guitar is over inflated (unless he owned it or played it)... but if he wants another one at the same price I'd be more than happy to track one down for him.
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Just came back from a charity art auction fundraiser run by one of the turn-key auctions.

There was a box with a signed Bruce Springsteen guitar and a cd- Born to Run. The guitar was branded "Bridgeport" or something like it, while likley signed by Springsteen, cannot believe it was his guitar. Also looked like it was mount by screwing into the guitar as described above.

The auctioneer stated that a similar piece sold for $21,000 at another auction.

No one bid the minium bid of $2,500.

BTW the auction also had original Monet lithographs of his paintings????????????????


You can either reframe while advising client of any damage due to previous framing or suggest he get an independent appraisal before investing any more money into it.
 
I never cease to be amazed... :eek:

Dave Makielski
 
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