Silicone? Take it or leave it?

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Sister

Sister

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Joined
Apr 18, 2004
Posts
945
Location
Alabama
"I think she is waiting for it to dry." -ERIC
(I plan ahead!)

"Can hardly wait..." -Jim Miller

OK, here goes. Remember, you can't scare me, I was a school teacher!

I know there are other framers who use silicone; I hope they will come forward with their statements. Here are mine:

Thirty+ years ago I went on a framing frenzy (using a reputable framer). You name it, I had it framed. Since going into the framing business myself, I decided to update my shadowboxes. I started with a large piece which held items of sterling silver, silver-plate, and stainless from my grandmothers (and even one great-grandmother).

When I disassembled it, you can guess the adhesive used for mounting--you got it--silicone. Not a single piece was corroded or damaged. The silicone peeled off completely, and they are in their original condition. I have now disassembled the third shadowbox of objects using silicone and no damage whatsoever.

Please read all before jumping to comments, especially the ending statement. Here are my two cents (OK, several cents).

*Silicone cures upon exposure to moisture vapor. Once cured, there is no blooming, fogging, or outgasing. In some cases, the end user does not allow the product to fully cure before placing the assembly in a enclosed area, which prevents the vapors from fully dissipating.
This is based on no more than 1/4" thickness with a 24-hour cure time.

*Silicone allows maximum positioning time and is self-leveling.

*Silicone resists aging, shrinking, cracking, and hardening. It has superior adhesion and flexibility. It is non-flammable and non-toxic.

(Above facts based on personal experience and Loctite Ultra Series.)

"Stop guessing and get the FACTS"
See also: www.artfacts.org/artinfo/articals/reversibility-framing.html (Articals is spelled this way on the link.)

I am not starting this thread for ridicule, but for opinions or facts based on experience.
 
Correction: That is an underscore not a hyphen.
www.artfacts.org/artinfo/articals/reversibility_framing.html
Articles can be attached to shadow box backgrounds in so many ways, but will it come apart? Silicone glue still seems to be okay because it will peel. Tying and strapping items down could leave marks or shade from fading.
 
very good article-printed it out!!
Thanks

Elsa
 
Sister - I think I have to more or less agree with you - even though I have become a big fan of gel medium lately.

I think the main factor in the appropriateness of silicone would be the porousness of the item to be framed. I too have peeled it off of many items (I reframe my own stuff constantly) with no "visible" residue.

Obviously one would not use it on anything of a fibrous nature, and probaably not plastic either.

Maybe a "hardness scale" should be established like they have for rocks!
 
Lest you get toooo enthusiastic, have you tried peeling it off glazed ceramic? I found a terrible mess when we unframed a work for a customer. The shallow bowl had held in place perfectly, but it was impossible to remove all the silicone. Maybe there are brand differences?
 
We have used silicone for shadowbox mounting since opening our frame shop in 1992. It has been my experience that it is the most appropriate means of attachement for non pourous items. Personally, I have always considered other options and have usually discarded those opinions rejecting the use of a viable product.

Jack Cee
 
I use Lascaux 498 HV adhesive on most items. I've tested it on metal, plastic, wood, mat board, fom-cor, fabric (can bleed through if used to generously), glass and ceramic.

It sticks very well, dries relatively quick and a littl' dab will do ya'. Neutral ph, biocide stabilized, water soluable until it dries. Totally removable from non-porous surfaces with acetone, toluene or xylene.

Dave Makielski
 
Why take the chance when there are just as easy alternatives that don't require adhesive? Plus, adhesive failure rate is pretty high. It is only as strong as the surface you are gluing it to, like the surface paper on a piece of matboard. Glue will peel away from that over time.

I'm not saying I have never used adhesive because I have and still do from time to time. There has to be no other way to attach an item and it has to have zero value before I will even consider it though.
 
There are legitimate framing purposes for almost any kind of adhesive available, including silicone. Sister, you have done a fine job of listing silicone's published attributes, which are universally applicable to a bathtub.

On the other hand, no product or procedure is suitable for everything. Silicone is among the products most frequently misused by framers who misunderstand or disregard its limitations in framing. Because it has disadvantages as well as advantages, it is not a perfect framing product.

So, here's a quiz:

1. What are the 3-dimensional object mounting applications for which silicone is inappropriate?

2. Why?

And for extra credit:
3. Describe one suitable alternative for each of those applications.

Teacher, nobody wants to scare you. But wouldn't you agree that your students deserve the whole truth?
 
Oh, boy. Here we go. I am just going to watch, read, and learn on this one ;) .

--M
 
I use silicone on some items, mostly in shadowboxes, sometimes medals or badges that have pins as well.

I have never had a problem and I make sure everything I do is strong and reversible.

EVERYTHING in our industry will have it's proponents and detractors, personally I like the stuff, where else can you use an item to mount objects, seal your tub and give ladies bigger boobies! (I hope I didn't offend anyone)

I get my silicone from M+M and United NOT from a Do it yourself center like my previous boss did.

Let me have it Grumbler purists!
 
Originally posted by Jim Miller:

Teacher, nobody wants to scare you. But wouldn't you agree that your students deserve the whole truth?
Click to expand...
:D That part was a joke because I thought everyone would "pounce" all at once.

I have not been framing long and am out to learn as much as possible. It is not my purpose to persuade others to use silicone adhesives but to find out more why not to use them other than "just because framers aren't suppose to." I take pride in my work and do not half @$$ assemble anything. I took Paul McFarland's week-long course in Atlanta hanging on to his every word along with a few other grumblers, so I am not a do-it-yourselfer.

My questions are:
1. Why is that quote in FACTS even if it was in the 1990's?
2. Silicone is acid free and fog free after curing (not just in a bathtub--no sarcasm intended). I do know the diffence in acid free and conservation framing. They are not one in the same as many think. Why did my silver items hang so well if these adhesives are so bad? Just asking, not arguing the point.

All of these questions are referring to certain invaluable objects (my silver items are valuable and irreplaceable). Anything that might need to be entirely unframed in the future are not to be included in this grouping, such as original artwork, original certificates, and anything else that cannot be replaced. Instead conservation methods are used via hinges, pockets, corners, pinning, stitching, or specific object mounts. And, of course, no solvents necessary for removal.

I could go on but it is not necessary. Does the question and answer on adhesives of this type result in ... all framing should be done using conservation methods? I can do that.

As someone's sig. line states, "and that's all I have to say about that." I have always been the inquisitive type and maybe ask too many questions.

Thanks.
 
I have been in custom framing for about three years, and I know I learned to spell the word "difference" long before that.
 
You can't ask too many questions!

Some examples from my own shop...I've been framing since 1998...not that long.

1. Christening gowns the reason should be obvious,
doilies...see above,

Alakan wood carvings...too heavy and didn't want to leave a residue on them

brass "golfer" sculpture heavy and not flat to the mounting surface
mounted with bent brass brazing rods covered with shrink tubing

handmade lace fan...mylar strips

military nedals...mylar

Preservation isn't always the issue.
 
1. What are the 3-dimensional object mounting applications for which silicone is inappropriate?

<font color=blue>Elephants, green slugs, vitrious china</font>

2. Why?

<font color=blue>Soaks through the wrinkles in their knees, won't stick to slim that walks, and sticks to the roof of your mouth.</font>

And for extra credit:
3. Describe one suitable alternative for each of those applications.

<font color=blue>Keep them in stitches, Drytack at 175 for 5 minutes, mylar strips unless using Crest Whitening strips.</font>

do I win :D
party.gif
 
This is a reasonable, but ironic, discussion.

I remember when silicone was pretty much the default adhesive for things like coins and arrowheads.

The first framers to suggest that maybe this wasn't the ideal process were considered somewhat radical - fringe lunatics, in some cases.

It appears we've come full circle.

I know my own preferences in this respect, but I've also reached a point in my career where I genuinely don't care what anybody else does.
 
Originally posted by Ron Eggers:
I know my own preferences in this respect, but I've also reached a point in my career where I genuinely don't care what anybody else does.
Click to expand...
Oh Ron, that's just the phone head-set talkin.... :D
 
Yes, Baer, you win! (IMHO)
 
Since this appears to be a serious discussion, except for Baer's humorous distraction, here are some unanswered questions that usually lead me away from silicone.

Curing time
Sister says -- and some others agree -- that silicone is OK for framing if you wait until it has completely cured before closing up the frame. How do we know that? And how do we know when curing is complete? I've heard framers answer eight hours, overnight, a week, and up to a month. Some say it's cured when the acrid odor goes away. Who's right? Is the answer always the same, regardless of brand? Is curing time the same for a small, thin layer on a coin, as it would be for the large globs needed to hold a heavily-textured, weighty mask?

Chemical composition
Silicone adhesives aren't all the same. I guess some basic ingredients are common among them, but who knows what other chemical elements are in any particular brand? More to the point, who knows what chemical reactions could result within the closed-up environment of a frame -- even after complete curing? The adhesive chemists I've asked say that's a tricky question, and I've never heard a clear answer.

Strength of surfaces
This question applies to all adhesive bonds, not only silicone. What Emibub said above is worth repeating: "...adhesive failure rate is pretty high. It is only as strong as the surface you are gluing it to, like the surface paper on a piece of matboard. Glue will peel away from that over time." That is, the fibers of the paperboard will tear away under stress. Likewise wood, textiles, and other fiberous surfaces may shred and cause bond failure. The logical fix for that dilemma is to glue a larger surface area. But what about an unnoticed spot of skin oil or grease? What about a coating of varnish or paint that chips or peels off?

Removability
Sister said the silicone peeled right off of her tableware. Yes, some silicones will peel off of some very smooth, non-hygroscopic, coated, oily, or dirty surfaces. Is it safe to assume that whatever silicone is in hand will peel off of whatever we glue with it? Certainly not. How do we know whether any given brand is removable from any given surface? I can personally testify that it sticks quite well to porcelain bathtubs, ceramic tile, and anodized aluminum.

We always have choices about our mounting methods and materials, and our decisions may be based on any number of considerations.

When the fastest, cheapest way is best, perhaps silicone is the right choice. But if the mount is expected to last a long time, or if the issues above matter for the project at hand, then we can and should make a better choice. And on my worktable, that's nearly every time.
 
It was not my intention to come across as inept by asking questions. Thank you, Jim, for the info. Hopefully, others have benefited as well.
 
Thanks Jim.

I hope you've saved that answer somewhere, so it can be copied and pasted the next time the question comes up - probably about 5 months from now ;) .

Sister, you didn't sound inept at all. If one doesn't ask, one doesn't learn!

Rebecca
 
I have been using Silicone for at least fourty years as a framing adhesive for objects. I have never had a framing job that involved the use of Silicone brought back.

I have found what I consider, a great replacement for that smelly stuff. Tacky Glue, the stuff is great, it glues just about everything, including fabrics, (it was designed for fabrics) AND it is water soluble. So it can be removed at any time.

I have never seen the experts address Tacky Glue like they have Silicone, so it must be better for framing.

Don't get me wrong, Silicone continues to have a place in my shop, but Tacky Glue is my first "reach for" glue.

Whatever will get the job done properly. I will even sew things down, if you can believe that.

John
 
Originally posted by Sister:
1. Why is that quote in FACTS even if it was in the 1990's?
Click to expand...
Good question.

A lot of framing information published some years ago is obsolete. Times change. We are progressing. That's not to demean the "experts" who brought us to this point in our development of standards. On the contrary, their answers brought up more questions, and that snowball is still rolling.

Most of us weren't familiar with the internet in 1995. A lot of our best information was one person's opinion backed up by some reasoning, which may or may not have been completely valid. If it was published, we generally accepted it.

Our pool of information is bigger now, and growing. We know more than we did then. And we have better materials now. For example, a decade ago UV filtering glazings were terribly expensive. "Acid free" mats were the accepted standard; alphacellulose mats were costly and selection was slim. We didn't have (or didn't know about) Mylar-D, Stabilitex, Coroplast, Sintra, Artcare, or foam board that didn't outgas, or low temperature dry mounting adhesives.

Until five years ago, most of us thought art on canvas should be framed with a vented backer, so it could "breathe". That's just one example of bad information that we generally accepted. Even now, some framers still don't know better.

Conservators weren't normally in our communication loop back then, either.

It must be difficult for newcomers to realize how much our little industry has changed in the past decade.

Shall we speculate about what more we might know in 2015? Certainly some of today's "generally accepted practices" will be debunked in the next ten years, and we will progress further.

Keep questioning the "experts". Ask for reasons and develop informed opinions. And most important, understand that what's considered to be best today might not be best tomorrow.
 
Originally posted by Emibub:
Why take the chance when there are just as easy alternatives that don't require adhesive? Plus, adhesive failure rate is pretty high. It is only as strong as the surface you are gluing it to, like the surface paper on a piece of matboard. Glue will peel away from that over time.

I'm not saying I have never used adhesive because I have and still do from time to time. There has to be no other way to attach an item and it has to have zero value before I will even consider it though.
Click to expand...
i always use adhesives as a very last resort, and i always worry that it will come off the substr5ate before the object itself
 
Adhesives should be seen as a last resort, especially commercial ones, since one can never
be certain just what is in them. The silicone
that was observed coming cleanly off the silver,
was probably the alcohol curing type and not the
acetic acid curing variety. Acrylic gel medium or
Lascauz 498 are good candidates for items that have non-porous surfaces, since they are not likely to have any acidic components, but securing
items with polyester sheet strips or sheer synthetic fabric is safest.

Hugh
 
Thanks, Hugh. That is a reasonable, straight answer I have been looking for--it makes sense. Times do change and obviously so do formulas. :rolleyes:
 
GE 850 is non-toxic, doesn't off-gas, and is food grade.... just, nobody carries it.

I would like an alternative Hugh, to Goop which doesn't set up complete for 72 hours....
fire.gif
 
Here is some info from the web (www.logwell.com/tech/RTV.html)that may be useful:


Never use acetic acid cure room temperature vulcanizing (RTV) silicones in your well logging tools, or on any electronics for that matter. Common RTV silicone made for automotive and general purpose use, the stuff that smells like vinegar, is corrosive to electronics, and its use is a death sentence to reliability. The use of acetic acid cure RTV silicone is forbidden in many government labs. (Acetic acid is the ingredient in vinegar that makes it smell like vinegar and taste sour; it is also used in photographic developer stop bath. The pure material is called glacial acetic acid and has a nasty habit of freezing if your air conditioner is turned down too low.)

Perhaps one of the best examples of the evils of acetic acid cure RTV silicone is what Oilex did to their customers. Oilex used acetic acid cure RTV silicone in the potted photomultiplier tube (PMT) voltage divider area of their compensated density logging tools. The PMTs had plated iron flying leads; the result is that all these tools were ticking time bombs that self destructed, destroying the PMT's when the leads were eaten from the base of the tube. AnaLog Services, Inc. has serviced many of these tools repairing or replacing the damaged PMTs.

RTV silicone made for non-corrosive electronics applications uses an alcohol curing system rather than an acetic acid curing system. The alcohol cure products have a slightly sweet to ethereal odor as opposed to the distinctive vinegar odor of the common acetic acid cure products. Both are one part curing systems that depend on air moisture to cure into silicone rubber. Examples of non-corrosive RTV silicone pastes are: clear or gray Dow Corning 3145; white General Electric RTV 162 or gray high strength RTV 167; and clear Loctite 5140. All these items are ridiculously expensive, no doubt the reason Oilex and others have been tempted to use the less expensive dime store variety acetic acid cure RTV silicone products. The General Cement (GC) Electronics 10-150 Silicone Rubber Adhesive Sealant is an acetic acid cure product and should not be used for electronics work, despite GC's representations to the contrary.

But help has arrived! Presumably in response to consumer complaints about odor, the major manufacturers have introduced non-acetic cure silicone products for the consumer market. General Electric Silicone II is the best we have found. It comes in handy 2.8 fluid ounce tubes in clear and white (the exact same tube they now pack their high priced material in), and is available from mass merchandisers like Wal-Mart at perhaps one-tenth the cost of the above mentioned products.

The belief that fully cured acetic acid based RTV silicone is harmless is incorrect; even fully cured, there may be enough acetic acid residue to cause a disaster. Stated otherwise, even waiting a week to seal up a tool containing acetic acid cure RTV silicone is a dangerous proposition. The non-acetic based RTVs can safely be sealed up in a tool at any time.

RTV silicone is referred to as "pookey" or "pucky" by many older logging electronics technicians. The origin is not clear, but it has been suggested it derives from an early television or old radio comedy routine. The use of the term must have been fairly common at one time since some automotive mechanics refer to gasket compound as pookey or pucky. When inquiries were made on the Wireline Mailing List on the subject, one correspondent mentioned that the ultimate glue was called "uckum pucky" at Basin Surveys many years ago.

Thanks to Robert Baer and Paul Knight, our two bestest gurus, for their contributions to this page.


Hugh
 
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