Should We Tell...

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gemsmom

gemsmom

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Oct 10, 2000
Posts
3,576
On another thread, I posted a problem I had with a supplier and The Framing Goddess asked for the name of that supplier. I didn't start the thread in the hopes someone would ask who it was, I want that understood. But if others want to know, should we tell? If we tell, should it be done privately or answer in the thread?
 
Tell.

You are bound to get a variety of responses. Who knows, one of them may change your point of view.
 
I don't see why mentioning a manufacturers name on the G should be 'taboo'. No one ever said it was, that I know of. If a manufacturer does good work, fixes problems, and generally behaves in a professional manner, there's no reason they would be mentioned in an adverse way. If, however, one presents unreasonable problems, we ALL need to know it, and, if they're lurking, they should move to fix their problem.

United is a prime example. Heck, the guy that owns the company reads the G, and he WILL respond, and in a positive way. I, for one, would love to know if a particular supplier is a pain to work with. At the very least, I'll go into business with them forewarned.

JRB says he calls 'The Man' when he has problems. I agree. The chain of command doesn't work. Try rolling something uphill instead of down...Works better and faster the other way. A supplier getting a bad rap on here gives them a chance to fix their problem.

If they don't want to speak up, they can at least email the 'victim' and try and make it right.

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I'm not totally worthless. I can always be used as a bad example...

[This message has been edited by CharlesL (edited April 28, 2001).]
 
I agree with Charles but we all need to remember that many of our suppliers have multiple facilities spread throughout the U.S. With LJ, for example, I've had a few problems from several different facilities. But I must admit, I get the best service on repairing a situation by calling the Atlanta office and being transferred to the facility that actually did the chopping and shipping and talking to the warehouse manager.

On that note, I will mention that here we are, at the end of April and the sales rep from LJ promised to call me around the 15th of April to set up an appt. Haven't heard a word from him to date. That really doesn't surprise me.

Since registering on the grumble, I've received quite a few calls from different manufacturer's reps that want our business. It would be interesting to see if they would treat us any differently. I really don't like to carry more than about 6 moulding lines as placing orders can get a little too confusing. But I do have a few small companies that give outstanding service though their moulding samples do not compare to LJ except for Bay Moulding. They don't have a sales rep that travels our area, but they have one of the best customer service departments I've dealt with so far.

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How cheap do you want it to look?
 
If someone wants to know, I don't see a problem with naming the supplier on the grumbler. If your not comfortable with doing that, e-mail them with the info.

Many problems are unique to specific situations and should be taken as such. When I learn of somebody elses problem with a company or individual, I make a mental note and keep an open ear for any other similar problems. If it seems like there is a recurring problem, I may stear clear of that company.

If for no other reason, I think the sharing of such information would keep the rest of aware of any problems that may exist.

Jkol
 
Couple of days ago I posted about extended waiting time for La Marche. Obviously they monitor the grumble because I received a phone call and apology back with an explanation and a plan to solve the problem...and no, I still didn't get the big guy! We'll see what happens.


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No problem is too large to run away from.
 
I would be reluctant to mention names unless it is regarding a company, and the problem can be documented. I would not approve of mentioning individuals, such as reps, by name here. That should be done in a private e-mail. In any case, I would strongly urge all Grumblers to take any such criticisms made here with a grain of salt. I must admit, I have noted a tendency among some Grumblers to, how shall I say this tactfully, have chips on their shoulders against certain companies or policies, that seem to reveal more inadequacy on the complainer's part than the other way around. I would hate to ruin anyone's or any company's reputation because of one crabby Grumbler who couldn't have things his/her own way. So be kind, polite, and analytical.
smile.gif
 
Dealing with "the man" is good, and it's especially good for our own egos, but if the company is organized correctly, it's all about ego and is unnecessary, unless "the man" is a control freak and has policies set such that the only answer underlings can give is 'no'. In that case, one is forced to go upstairs quickly to resolve situations, which is inefficient at best and leads to a company culture which is one I really don't care to deal with, because I had to for too many years.

Try this sometime: after getting the standard runaround on why this is a difficult issue, ask the person to carefully listen to this next question, which is, "Is the only answer you can give me 'no'?" If so, we're wasting our time, you and me. Please put me in touch with someone who has the authority to say yes and we'll have a legitimate discussion about the issues. If you have the authority to say 'yes' and you're refusing a legitimate, understandable request, then you're forcing me to make a decision about whether or not I continue a business relationship with you, because you're not matching the level of support I give AND expect.

yada yada and it can go downhill from there, but you gave it a proper, professional shot and there's plenty of fish in this particular sea.
 
and Pamela, to answer your original question, I really don't know.

I personally see too much trashing of big guys (read: distributors or suppliers) when I think they're convenient targets for frustration.

I appreciate the fact that there are a lot of folks reading the Grumble and remaining silent partners in hopes of keeping their ears to the tracks without having to come out and defend themselves. I'm sure they have bite marks on their tongues sometimes.

I would name the supplier only as a last resort when there's something happening which is completely unwarranted and unreasonable and you feel as if you have no other recourse to attempt to set things straight.

I wouldn't hesitate, on the other hand, to tell folks privately and in detail.
 
It's up to you, however I'd probably send an e-mail and if they don't have one in their profile than disregard the question.
 
Pam, do it privately. No one is completely 100% satisfied with all companies we deal with. They may be a good company to 99% of the people and would be happy to settle with you privately. Put yourself in their place.
 
You want results ? Do what I did to L-J. When I sent a check to Atlanta,I put a little note with the check that said "this would probably be their last ckeck due to the problem we've had". Their sales guy was at my shop within the next week on bended knee to help.
 
Name the company. This is the Picture Framers Grumble is it not?
I do not think what transpires here will make or break any company or organization.
Just about everyone on this thread has the uncanny ability to think for themselves.
I've seen complaints about suppliers on TG that I have never had a problem with. It was hard for me, I mean I didn't want to be out of step with TG, but surprisingly I did not close my account with them.
I have also slammed suppliers on The Grumble, much to my consternation, they remain in business.
I think The Grumble is a great place for us to vent our frustrations without hurting anyone. I would venture to say that is probably one of the reasons for it's existence.
Framer has provided a valuable tool for the small shops to keep their sanity, someone to talk to and complain to.
I think you will do no harm by naming names. No matter what is said, it is said to a select, like minded group of people, who are smart enough to decide for themselves if your complaints are valid or not.
The main thing that is good for you is you have an audience for your complaints that understands where you are coming from.

John
 
Pam-I think all this should you or shouldn't you is nonsense. The only person that can determine if this is a company you want to deal with is you. And the only person that can effectively solve the problem is your supplier. Not a single expert on this forum can change that. While I agree that sometimes the forum provides a little venting, I think that sometimes people get a little carried away with their own perceived power. If the supplier isn't interested in solving your problem, you know how to handle it. Just quit doing business with them. But only after you really have given them a fair chance.

About only talking to "the man", I have pretty strong feelings about that. I really have a very negative attitude to anyone that won't let any of my people take care of their problem. It's their job and they do it it well. Let those trained to handle problems handle them. I can't imagine every time my car needs repairs that I call the Chairman of GM. Or if I have a problem with my TV I demand to call Mr Sony. They, like we, have people that are trained to handle problems. Let them do their jobs. If, and only if, you get no results move up the ladder. Persistence is much more effective than bull-headedness. And remember, you'll probably just end up with the same person to handle that problem that you skipped over. I don't think that's a good way to win friends and influence people. Keep your wits about you, follow the chain, and if you're not happy with the results, just move on. Most suppliers are interested, just like you, in keeping their clients happy. But sometimes, just like the 12 yr photo, the request isn't warranted. You be the judge.
 
As usual, Bob, you worded it more succinctly than I could and you're right. Unless the owner wishes to be a one-person complaint department as a substitute for a lifestyle, the people you have in place need to have the authority and judgment to work issues to a proper resolution. Authority comes from you, judgment in most cases comes from practice and experience. Experience sometimes means making mistakes.

If that means they needed to give a bit to get it done and you end up not agreeing with their particular solution later, they need to understand in the strongest terms that you agreed with their solution to go ahead and resolve the issue instead of stalling it (unless, of course, this conversation occurs while awaiting your turn in bankruptcy court or something), and the rest is a matter of coaching a person through so that they're stronger by the process and not weakened.

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"If you're going to do something to excess, you might as well go overboard."
 
Good message, Bob.

When it comes to getting corrective action to serious problems, I tend to treat suppliers something like the way I treat employees and my kids. That is, I follow a disciplinary progression of conversation/action intended to achieve the desired result, in fairness to all concerned.

Having problems is a natural part of business relationships and personal relationships alike. Surviving problems actually strengthens relationships. as we are "tested", our strengths and weaknesses come out, which enables us to understand one another better, and work together better. Problem-solving becomes a valuable learning experience.

First, I explain the problem and ask nicely for a specific response.

If that doesn't work, I re-state the problem and my expectation for the desired response.

If One and Two don't work with the key contact, then I move on up the ladder of authority until the problem is resolved. At each step, the ones who fail to get it done are aware of what's next. In a big company, it can be time-consuming to touch all the bases.

If One, Two, and Three fail to get results, I become more forceful and start talking about the consequences of not responding. Of course, sometimes the perpetrator doesn't care about consequences. If so, that's important to know, too.

If all of that fails, I might review the whole mess again. Or, if the vibes are really bad, I might just terminate the relationship. (Note: Don't try this with the kids; they keep moving back.)

This progression is for serious problems, and I keep notes of every step (names, dates, promises or comments made, etc.) I don't sweat the small stuff unless it gets big. Then we talk. After all, none of us is perfect and we all make mistakes. Plan on it.

Throughout this communication process I try to remain objective and not let my personal feelings get into the matter. It's business, not personal. And no matter what point of view one has, reason has universal appeal. Besides, few of us function well in emotion mode.

In any case where the relationship is terminated -- whether an employee or a supplier -- the termination is no surprise; they always see it coming l-o-n-g before it happens. Indeed, sometimes it's almost anti-climactic.

So, Pamela, If I were you I'd deal with the supplier privately and not publicly, unless it's a matter of supplier policy/procedure/situation that clearly affects all of us. In that case, it might be good for all of us to know about that. It's your call.
 
I would like to add to my previous post, not only is being able to complain on The Grumble
good for your mental health, for the first time ever in our industry, we have the ability to complain to each other on a grand scale.
Prior to the internet and The Grumble, if you had a problem with a supplier, they would usually tell you that YOU where the ONLY person that was having a problem. That is the absolute truth, I don't know how many times I've heard that.
The Grumble gives us a very strong voice to ALL the suppliers. For the first time in our industries history, we have a collective voice to them.
Airing our dissatisfaction is one of our strongest tools to get them to start cleaning up their act. Publicly complaining about whatever is going to force them to actually look into ongoing problems and correct them. A supplier who is continually out of product or is shipping bad product will no longer be able to say it's an isolated problem.
We our doing ourselves a disservice by NOT naming them, we are also doing them a disservice as well. It is not so easy for an employee to hide problems from an owner any longer, especially if the owners on the Grumble.

John
 
Well said, John. We ran into the 'you're the only one having problems' ourselves with a MAJOR moulding outfit. Only after getting high enough did the problem resolve itself.

Bob is right, in a perfect world. No offense, Bob. If everyone trained their employees as well, we wouldn't often hear the old saw about being the only one with problems. Oftentimes, though, that is not the case.

I don't know why some of the people we initially report problems to have that mindset. Many do. We have found, in the majority of times, that the initial contacts are eager to rectify any problem that their company has, or that we had with them. We aren't chronic complainers, and I don't always start at the top. But I don't hesitate to go there when I can't get service any other way.

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I'm not totally worthless. I can always be used as a bad example...
 
I have never felt it necessary to go to "the man", as you put it. A call to the sales rep. has usually been enough. After all, it is their income that will be affected if you decide to take your business elsewhere. A couple of times I have had to drop a company when even the best efforts of the sales rep. have failed. In this instance, the problem was solved by the rep., but I also know he wants my business back. I wonder if I would have gotten my way if I wasn't such a previously good customer? I feel that since my thread was not posted with the intention of trashing the company, but to find out if others agreed with my position, I prefer to keep silent.
 
Each and everyone of us had had some sort of problem with a customer over the years. And occasionally, the customer walks in the door with a problem they themselves caused. wheather it be bad design, hanging the picture over the open hottub etc. We all try to solve those problems as best we can for ours and the customers benefit trying to be fair to them and ourselves.
Would we all like it if the customer posted our business names on an open forum for all our customers to see if they were not satisfied? I think not!
I feel if a supplier doesn't handle a problem for us, its our decision not to do business with them again. They'll either see the error of their ways and change, or be gone.
I personally think using the Grumble for chastising suppliers would be setting a poor precedent as well as not looking as professional as we all are!

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Overcut the Barbarian
Frame it or throw it away
 
It looks like we are divided on ratting out a supplier.
Overcut's response sounded pretty good except that is is well known in any retail environment, a dissatisfied customer will definitely "post" their complaints with your store. A satisfied customer will tell a few of their friends, a dissatisfied customer will tell ALL of their friends, it's called " Word of mouth "
I agree, every complaint should not be posted. Complaints should be posted if you think it will do some good, or as a warning if the company is deliberately committing fraud or their a bunch of shysters.
If you think your customers are not "posting" their complaints about your shop, you are indeed living in a perfect world.
The decision to post or not is a personal one, I do think keeping quiet about an ongoing problem is not such a good idea.

John
 
Sorry, I don't get it. When did we become so prim and proper.
Remember the threads slicing/dicing, and chopping the big outfits and a few small ones too.
Sure we've gotten over that (mmmm) but if I'm having a supplier problem I'd like to know I'm not "the only one" as they say.
If there's a problem, tell it privately and what solution, if any, has been arranged.If it can't or won't be solved then feel free to "Grumble" about it.
As business people we should be willing to help fellow framers facing similar problems.
There's power in numbers and most of us agree that many suppliers monitor this board.
I don't post every supplier problem, because it's usually worked out. But if the problem persists and you guys might be having the same problem, why not share?
 
OK, how about this one.
Basically we, "The Grumble", are a group of friends with common interests, getting together and flinging the bull, I think.
What if we where face to face instead of being on the net. Would we let a member of the group tell a story and not name names?
Perhaps we would, if say, we where from some other planet in a different star system. On the planet Perfectworld, yes, but not here on earth. As a species, we are just to darn nosey, we have to know.

John
 
That's a good point, John, and I agree that if we were sitting in a gathering somewhere we'd badger them continuously to find out who it was. And it would be the same instinct that causes such huge gawkers' blocks next to wrecks on the freeway: we are just too curious when there's the scent of blood in the air. Maybe we're related to sharks and the dok-tors haven't figured it out yet.

The one key difference between sitting together airing out grumbles and writing them here: it's generally obvious who is listening and involved vs. this wide-open forum where we should balance letting it all hang out while exercising some discretion.

Sometimes it's appropriate to name names, sometimes it's not, I reckon. Personal judgment. One thing I like is that this quirky lil old forum is beginning to have some weight within the industry and I'd like to see that continue. I think the way we police ourselves is working well.
 
As a species we are just too nosey? Really? Do we take to task those people that don't use their names for posting? If our intent is to tweak someone's nose for our benefit, don't hide behind any "need to know for the good of the trade" nonsense. Pam lives on the East Coast, maybe it's a regional problem. Maybe she was just venting. But, I'll promise one thing: If I was a vendor, and I saw my firm being sullied by some internet bully, without giving me a chance to remedy the problem, I'd be a lot less willing to go the extra mile. I think Pam handled this problem to her best outcome. This should be the lesson we all should take from this thread. At least in a Perfect World, anyway. A little less poking in the eye, and little more honest communciation will do wonders in problem resolution.

But for all those with a full disclosure attitude, should we start with our own names?
 
I kind of like having a nickname, personally, but it would be nice to have a place in the user profile where those who wished could put their names.

John Ranes and I had an email exchange a while back in which he said he couldn't find my name. So I went back to my profile to insert said name and couldn't find anyplace to accomplish that task.

I forget which side of this discussion I even landed on. Just for the record, though:

po' framer = Steve Walls

Mizz po' framer = a helluva gal to put up with me all the time
 
Po' Framer, Great answer Steve, you have a clear understanding of what is going on. I think you have summed it up for all of us. You made it clear and easy to understand.

It would be nice to get a vendors viewpoint.

Thanks,
John
 
Ireland is such a small place just about everyone knows each other.
I love THE GRUMBLE it allows a little guy like me in Ireland add a larger dimention to my thinking and business (very small Business at present but we are working on it) thanks everyone.

Dernot Cox-Kearns
ON THE EDGE Picture Framing = Dermot Cox-Kearns

If i lost the thread sorry I just liked that bit about who we are.
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by JRB:
Po' Framer, Great answer Steve, you have a clear understanding of what is going on. I think you have summed it up for all of us. You made it clear and easy to understand.

It would be nice to get a vendors viewpoint.

Thanks,
John<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>



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I am sure that many of grumblers have used a screen name other than their proper name out of "internet habit". I remember trying to use different screen names for many different sites only to find that I usually end up forgeting the password.
Finally, out of habit I just started to type jkol for all of them.

jkol a.k.a. Jay Kolakoski (now you can see why I use jkol!)
 
Many,many years ago (in a different solar system on planet PerfectWorld) a wise old mentor told me of a wonderful lesson. He shared complaining generally fell into two categories: Feel good and do good. Complaining for the feel good aspect may have helped you feel more important, or smarter than the poor SOB that was getting the full impact of your ire. You may have felt better, but, typically the problem didn't get better. We all do this a lot with politics, etc generally when we feel we have no control over what happens. It feels good to bitch. There is some solace in this impersonal type of complaining, yet it rarely accomplishes anything.

The do good is generally done with a specific cause of action designed to remedy the situation. While we may not get the satisfaction of making ourselves somehow to look better or smarter, we generally get something done. It may be true in politics or business and even picture framing.

While it may look fashionable or feel cool to rip some supplier or vendor for our own purposes, I still maintain that a frank, open discussion with the people than can, and probably will, resolve the problem is the best option.

It may not make you feel as good, but it certainly will do as good. It's no different than how any of us want to be treated when the roles are reversed. I think it's something about that Golden Rule thing. Unless, of course, that only works in a Perfect Wold,also.

For the record, I have no problem with any aliases. I just put more weight to the comments when I really know the true identity. But I still get a hoot out of Zorro's rapier-type comments
 
Dermont, welcome to the club, having members from across the pond is going to be an asset to our forum.
Most people in our industry started out very small, you are not alone, believe me. I think about 90% of us have been where you are.
You will find most of us eager and willing to help with any questions or problems you may have.
Best of luck to you,

John
 
Speaking of the rapier tongued cave framer, where has he been hiding lately?

Zorro the light is in the sky.

Where are you? What have you been up to? Hopefully not your eyeballs in bats!!


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Timberwoman
AL
I cut the mat, I pet the =^..^= cat.
 
I think it is okay to mention a supplier. They can't fix the problem if they don't see people grumbling about it. (in some cases) As long as we don't beat them up we can certainly grumble.
 
Originally posted by JRB:
Name the company. This is the Picture Framers Grumble is it not?
I do not think what transpires here will make or break any company or organization.
John
Click to expand...
I'm with John on this. If a company is consistently hard to deal with or consistently has bad product I would like to hear about it before I do business with them.
 
I think the key work is "consistent". I don't remember what the problem was, but it was an isolated incedent, and I believe it was solved to my satisfaction.

I think if problems were happening repeatedly, it would be acceptable to ask if others were having similar troubles with a distributor. In that case we would have to name names.
 
I would never use my real name on a forum like this. Jim Miller is just my favorite alias.

But since you asked, my real name is Jamesandrogin Quincy Muellersteinbergson.


April Fools :rolleyes:
 
I haven't read all the replies so if I make any redundant comments please excuse me. However I'd like to take a slightly different approach to deliberately nameing a vendor when we have a particular problem. Wouldn't it be more useful to NOT use a specific name?
Consider the outcome. Every vendor who may be LURKING would suddenly stop and wonder "Are you talking to me".Then they would all attempt to make sure that they showed no resembalance to the problem. So with a single generalized complaint we might cause a host of vendors to do an examination of conscientious and there by do a lot more good then nameing a sigle Vendor .While nameing a single vendor would only anger that vendor and make all the others smuggly say "see I'm not like that".LOL

But on a more serious note we have already seen the problems that can result from both;Beratting a NAMED vendor online and to do so under an alias. This combination might give the mistaken impression that the accuser is hideing to make unsubstantated attacke. So Bob's opinion of dealing direct is by all means the best way to TRULY resolve a problem. Of course this is "The Original Bitch Board" so if you want to stir it up try to do it without useing names.
Charles BUDDY Drago CPF ®
DBA Needles and Knots
Chalmette,La. 70043
PS all my friends and family ( of which TFG fits in well)really do call me BUDDY
 
Jerry, I wrote that a while ago, I'm not so sure now. The Grumble has grown an awful lot since then. It may not make or break a company, I now think it could do some definite harm or good to a company. The Grumble is definitely one of our industries most known voices.

Where La Marche is concerned, thanks to The Grumble, I now know I am not the only one who has expressed dissatisfaction with the way that company handles it's problems. I have talked to the owner, the general manager, and the sales rep. over the last three years. Absolutely nothing came of my, or anyone else's efforts.

La Marche just does not seem to really give a darn what it's customers think, although they say they do. I am hoping that the publicity they are getting on The Grumble may motivate them to actually consider doing something, someday, about solving their problems.

Mary, my assistant, said that when she placed her order on Wednesday that they now have a new message on their voice mail saying the call is not only being routed to the order desk, but to any available sales person as well. She ended up getting the receptionist again who cycled her back into the voice mail. She finally did get results in under ten minutes, not bad for La Marche. However, it is not very impressive as compared to any other supplier. It does show that La Marche is lurking on The Grumble though.

Buddy makes a very sound argument for not naming names, makes a whole lot of sense to me. In La Marche's case I'm not so sure. The object is to get them to answer their phones in a reasonable length of time, and also to encourage them to keep their stock at an acceptable level, and to at least have some sort of an idea when they can fill back orders.

I can not think of any other distributer that has these problems as severe as La Marche does. Most of the other distributors take customer feed back seriously enough to solve the problems before they get to The Grumble.

I will say this about La Marche, they truly do have a very nice and unique line of mouldings, I would hate to see them go out of business.That is why I am going to all this trouble, I hope they do something soon.

John
 
I wasn't even a Grumbler when this thread was started but, since it's been resurrected, I have some points and questions.

I've never ordered from La Marche, but - for those that do - does it help to fax in orders? I always fax orders from existing vendors and they call back with any out-of-stocks.

I wouldn't spend ten minutes on hold with any company that isn't a monopoly. I once spent 4 hours on hold (speaker phone on second line) with the phone company. Now I have a different phone company that answers the phone.

If someone has a bad experience with a company, I think it's irresponsible to rant about it here (yes, I KNOW it's called The Grumble) before exhausting all other avenues. The concerns about La Marche have been consistent for as long as I can remember (and apparently before that) so I doubt they are groundless.
 
As of this past Monday, those beautiful LaMarche samples are no longer hanging on my wall. Received a 30 x 40 joined rush job from them, packed beautifully, only to discover it had been scraped and dinged on something PRIOR to packing it and shipping it to me. A 1 1/2 inch gash in a moulding that cost me $263. Somebody KNEW that gash was there and sent it out anyway! Now, my customer is disappointed, I'm pissed, and I refuse to deal w/them any longer. BTW, I have already experienced ALL the other phone probs, out of stock probs, discontinued probs that were previously mentioned on numerous occasions. This was just the "last straw".
 
Any time La Marche has come up in discussion with local (non grumble) framers, it has been the same story. "I pulled them off the wall because of problems with the company".

For this reason, we never considered the company when we opened shop a couple years ago. This "bleeding" HAS to be seriously hurting their bottom line.

It's a shame because they really do have some nice product.
 
Ron, I made a post a few years ago about my attempt to fax an order to La Marche, that did not work either, they will just ignore a fax order.

The only thing I can think of is that moral at this company must be at rock bottom. That can only be attributed to management. Nobody really seems to give a darn. The only other thing I can think of is that the company has other interests that are much more profitable than supplying stinking little framing shops.

John
 
I fax ALL my orders to LaMarche, (and everyone else, for that matter). What I get from LaMarche is a return fax with the frames, sizes, out-of-stocks (which have been limited), from where it will ship, and who took the fax. Their moulding has not been selling as well for me as it has in the past, and I do not like their shipping costs (I complained about that on another thread). But, I must be in the minority as I have had no other problems with them. I HAVE had problems with another companies out-of-stocks and long waits lately. I seem to go through this with them every year at this time. I am thnking it has something to do with the holidays and inventory, because the rest of the year things go more smoothly.
 
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