Question Should a supplier(distributor) compete with us??

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Ken R.

CGF, Certified Grumble Framer
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Apr 9, 2011
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Western Michigan
Maybe this topic has been around before, but I couldn't find it in a search.

One of my suppliers (not ready to name them yet) has put a new rept. on the road calling on museums, community colleges, etc.

I discovered this when I asked one of the museums that I usually sell 100 sheets of matboard a year to, stopped buying from me. They said the distributor called on them and they are now buying from them. That's 100 sheets of matboard I won't sell this year, and 100 sheets I certainly won't buy from this distributor.

Do you think the distributor should be selling direct like this?? Should they be competing with me??


Another distributor, who I don't use at all, has for years sold direct to artists, photographers, local schools, and whoever happens to ask them. I've always felt this was going to far.

What is the consensus on this?
Thanks for your time.
 
First they came for the photographers. They got them, and they turned them from our customers to our competitors and handed them our trade association.

Then they came for the artists. They got them, and they turned them from our customers to our competitors and garnered a ton of resentment for the margins we need to merely survive.

And they tell us that these were never our customers to serve, we were just filling in.

Now they come for the museums and educational institutions.

Next comes hotels and hospitals.

And at the same time the writing on the wall says kiss your digital media clients, graphic design firms, ad agencies goodbye.

And you better increase your numbers to keep your discounts. And your prices are going up too.


We're done. Game over, man. Game. Over. We're just not needed.

For now we can have the customers they don't want but eventually those will go as well. Some distributors will already take all comers.


I've started adapting. I don't count on anyone anymore. In 4 years when my current lease ends my company will look nothing like it does today.

It won't be because I can't market. I'm very good at it.

It won't be because I can't provide a good selection and great design. I'm very good at that too.

It won't be because I don't work hard and still have work to do. We've taken a total of 4 days off since Labor Day and two of those were working on marketing from home. We haven't been caught up on orders in 20 years and I consistently outsell others in my market.

It will be because I determined there is no future.

Maybe you can exist and continue a meager living, but there is no way you can thrive if your suppliers are providing downward pressure on your prices and taking whole segments of your customer base and taking them for themselves or worse yet actually turning them into your competition while raising your prices and wanting more business from you to maintain the discounts you have.

No way.

So I've been adapting and will continue. And in 4 years I will end up somewhere but it won't be here. But I'll be ok. I don't believe I'll be actually framing any pictures, though I may still be selling them. And that's too bad since it's something I love to do.

A few years ago I was told that there were only twelve thousand framers left. In the last month or two Jay Goltz wrote an article and put that number at eight thousand! Yet our manufacturers and suppliers are opening new accounts, not losing them. So they can't be framers, right?

At least no one lies anymore. After being told on here that a company was absolutely not selling to the public I did what I thought was logical. I ordered material under a new account with my personal credit card and had it happily delivered to my house. Then I never ordered another thing again. But now it's different. Now there is nobody left to order from.

I've been involved in other industries and in one that I saw die around all around me though I was successful. I learned that I don't want to do that again.

Now when I browse the web for leisure, something that used to end my day and that I loved, I end up stressed and unhappy. I can't get away from Google ads showing a supplier selling direct. They are in my face on woot, on the lol-cats site, everywhere there are Google ads. And it has me on life-tilt*. Always in my face.

So I'll adapt.



*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tilt_(poker)
 
Since I can no longer find a distributor in my region that does not compete with me in some way or another I gave up worrying about it. Like Johnny, it still ticks me off. What these distributors don't get is that they are cutting off their own nose. When this distributor took your customer, they put you one step closer to being out of business. When/if you get there, they may still be selling those mat boards to that museum, but they will no longer be selling the other things you purchased from them. When that tipping point happens they will have to close down as well.

This has already happened through out the country to many distributors that are gone or were purchased on the cheap by a bigger fish.
 
Simply put, I won't do business with a competitor. Yet there are folks on here that do all of the time. I love their stuff but just look at the folks who buy from Bella. I don't compete in the Chicago market but that's another frame shop. Someone who is competing with other grumblers/framers. Yet somehow that's different than a local wholesaler going after your clients. Kudos to Jay for somehow figuring that out. I go to Chicago often and am amazed when I visit stores in that market that carry his product. Then you go online to look up their shop and find that he is buying adwords to compete with them. Essentially they are helping to pay him to compete. Seriously brilliant on his part. Amazing what the sheeples will do.

I say that there needs to be a clear seperation between wholesale and commercial/retail. Vendors who do this will be the ones that are successful in the long run.

For the OP, express your feelings with your wallet.

To Johnny, wow man. Very depressing. I don't agree, but do see some signs in various markets I travel to where there will be issues. C'mon sheeples. Don't be the cause of your own demise.
 
OK, I'll wade into this. As the owner of a distributor for the past 20 years , I'm sensitive to this issue. About four years ago, we went through our customer list and screened out almost 100 artists and photographers who had opened accounts over the years due to our lack of vigilance. We called some of our best framers in each area and set up artists discounts with them so we could refer people. Not a perfect solution and we made some former customers pretty upset. Cut down our showroom traffic dramatically.
But I can see why other distributors chase this business. Every time a big box store opens another location in our territory, those sales are ultimately lost to us. So with a shrinking customer base of custom framers, how do you grow your business or even stay even? I face a similar situation with several of my moulding vendors who compete directly with us on mats, glass and foam. When survival of the business is at stake, principles can go out the window.

Craig from Quadrant
 
Grumbling

Chop Right-Marquis does both. They have a storefront and are a wholesale distributor. Talk about an unfair advantage. It really kills me but I give them my business because I like Oxford and at this time pricing is the same. What really makes me angry is Presto – a company I like for now – sells to them but won’t give Less the pricing he needs to help him compete. If companies like Presto and Oxford think it is ok to help a company like CRM undercut us, they should remember that our business is ultimately more important than threats from companies like Don Mar. Don Mar, Framers Market, and Chop Right compete with us. Companies like Larson-Juhl, Omega, Studio, International, and others make it possible for Less to buy for less and hold his own. Even these companies compete for large accounts.

My one bone to pick with Omega is their direct marketing and sales to artists, although I have been told they are backing off due to too many complaints from us.

For years I was convinced that Designer had a direct to the consumer online business and I still won’t buy from them.

It is a free for all out here. It is almost impossible not to do business with a competitor.

I don’t hold a grudge anymore against those doing what they think is right for them, but Less has to do what he thinks is right for him.

I believe those companies that help the independent’s survive are the ones most likely to survive with our support.

Just a worth Less opinion. Maybe hope Less.
 
I do think there is a profound difference between someone running a manufacturer or distributor while openly running other retail locations existing on their own merits at market reasonable prices considering their wholesale price schedule, who then tells you straight up and lets you decide, and someone selling to your target customers at the same prices or nearly the same prices you get for your large quantity of business and doing so from their warehouse locations.

Of course you're free to feel the same way about them both if you choose. I'm not saying one is right and the other is wrong. I'm saying there is a difference.
 
Less said:
My one bone to pick with Omega is their direct marketing and sales to artists, although I have been told they are backing off due to too many complaints from us.
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Don't you believe that for one minute Less. Their sales reps actively solicit and compete directly with wholesale framers in their territory.

I remember calling them out once when an Omega rep tried to sway one of my clients with an offer for 5% discount off my prices. I was told to give them a list of all my clients and they'd make sure they didn't call on them...I'll be sure to do that right after I give them the pin code to my bank account so they can make sure no one takes ny money.
 
craigc said:
OK, I'll wade into this. As the owner of a distributor for the past 20 years , I'm sensitive to this issue. About four years ago, we went through our customer list and screened out almost 100 artists and photographers who had opened accounts over the years due to our lack of vigilance. We called some of our best framers in each area and set up artists discounts with them so we could refer people. Not a perfect solution and we made some former customers pretty upset. Cut down our showroom traffic dramatically.
But I can see why other distributors chase this business. Every time a big box store opens another location in our territory, those sales are ultimately lost to us. So with a shrinking customer base of custom framers, how do you grow your business or even stay even? I face a similar situation with several of my moulding vendors who compete directly with us on mats, glass and foam. When survival of the business is at stake, principles can go out the window.

Craig from Quadrant
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Valid points. Possibly some that are more complex discussions than this board will allow but how about the following suggestions:
  • Additional product offering to help you do more business with your existing customers.
  • Incentives to good customers to consider expanding their businesses
  • Rewards programs based upon loyalty.
  • Expanding your product offering to allow those stores to compete with the big box perception. Maybe a good distributor needs to stock a ready made collection or needs to offer some sort of other buying group consolodation opportunities (if we all buy museum glass through you at the same time and all commit on some quantities, how much lower/more can you get our pricing).
  • Work is a situation with folks like Jeff Rodier where you open up your manufacturing opportunities to some people. If Jeff knew he could order at a touch above manufacturing costs you might get bulk clients like him in areas you don't do business with.
  • Forming marketing co-operatives between your clients to help them to promote their business in various marketplaces (you can be the common denominator betweeen competitors)
  • Help your customers understand what they are doing right/wrong and work with them on how to improve/understand things (think anything from product offering/mix in that location to website critique to pricing)
  • Expand your market footprint
  • Deal with the "artists" and the "designers" but do it on an affiliate program. Acknowledge that these folks are going to look for the best deal so work out a situation whereby they do pay more than your wholesale customers (but less than they might at the big boxes) and then credit the customers you have that might be geographically closest to the operating address of said photographer, artist, etc. For instance if there is a designer that is closest to my store geographically, I get a credit with you of X% of whatever they spend. I still would love to have them in my store so I might extend offers through you to them that might get them to come in, use my design space, use my installation services, etc.

There are all sorts of things out there that a vendor can do to earn more business without basically saying FU to their existing clients. Those that do the most for their retailers and who look out for their retailers will survive and thrive. I'm sure that there are brighter people on this board who can come up with more than I just did in three minutes. I welcome their perspectives.
 
Paul is correct about working with people such as myself who are basically offering a wholesale outlet to the artists. I sell to well over 1,000 artists/photographers many of whom were buying from our distributors in the past. Now all of the local framers can be mad at me instead of their suppliers. You won't get the same margins as selling direct but you also have none of the headaches of doing so.
 
pwalters said:
To Johnny, wow man. Very depressing. I don't agree, but do see some signs in various markets I travel to where there will be issues. C'mon sheeples. Don't be the cause of your own demise.
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Well its just my opinion.
I'm surprised no class instructors have proclaimed what a resounding success their own offerings at WCAF were as a rebuttal.
 
FrameMakers said:
Since I can no longer find a distributor in my region that does not compete with me in some way or another I gave up worrying about it. Like Johnny, it still ticks me off. What these distributors don't get is that they are cutting off their own nose. When this distributor took your customer, they put you one step closer to being out of business. When/if you get there, they may still be selling those mat boards to that museum, but they will no longer be selling the other things you purchased from them. When that tipping point happens they will have to close down as well. This has already happened through out the country to many distributors that are gone or were purchased on the cheap by a bigger fish.
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To me, this is a microcosm of the American economy. When companies started basing compensation on stock options, the easiest way to increase the current stock price was to fire a bunch of people and look for cheaper labor overseas. When Americans lose their jobs they no longer are able to buy what the companies are making, so they have to look to overseas markets to sell their goods. It's a race to the bottom.

pwalters said:
Simply put, I won't do business with a competitor. Yet there are folks on here that do all of the time. I love their stuff but just look at the folks who buy from Bella. I don't compete in the Chicago market but that's another frame shop. Someone who is competing with other grumblers/framers. Yet somehow that's different than a local wholesaler going after your clients. Kudos to Jay for somehow figuring that out. I go to Chicago often and am amazed when I visit stores in that market that carry his product. Then you go online to look up their shop and find that he is buying adwords to compete with them. Essentially they are helping to pay him to compete. Seriously brilliant on his part. Amazing what the sheeples will do.
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Jay was a retailer long before he was a distributor. (On a visit to Chicago many years ago I visited Jay's company and got a personal tour with his vice president. I admired the beautiful inlaid mouldings he was showing, and was thrilled when they became available for me to sell when Jay started Bella.) The real question for local Chicago framers is: Can I make money by selling these mouldings? If the answer is YES, why not sell them? All the local businesses are competing for market share anyway.
I have a similar situation here. Across the street from me is a retail store owned by Frame King Moulding. My work is different (and better) than theirs, and I have my own clientele. Frame King is a good supplier with good merchandise at a good price and local delivery several times a week. I would be shooting myself in the foot by not using them just because that store is over there. (BTW, it was there before I moved to this location 16 years ago.)
:cool: Rick
 
Our little industry remained relatively unchanged for many decades, with few significant changes in the way picture framers did did their work or operated their businesses. All of our competitors were pretty much like us. Everything has changed, and now we have competitors of all sorts.

Of course our suppliers will compete with us. They are in survival mode, just as we are. Most of them have already embraced the concept of "fulfillment services" for photographers, artists, and commercial buyers of framing. For some, it will be a short step to full-blown consumer retailing. A few of our major suppliers already sell directly to consumers on the internet and in regional outlets, and eventually suppliers will set up their own retail outlets in neighborhoods where we fail. The buzzards are circling.

Let's face it: the small-independent mom & pop retail business model as we know it is failing. Some traditional frame shops and art galleries will adapt to the New Consumer Market successfully. The rest will retire or otherwise go away.

There will always be a consumer demand for the kinds of custom framing that the dominant segments of the industry can not or will not pursue. For example, only a few framing specialists will be able to take care of the labor-intensive object framing of heirlooms and antique valuables. Hand-made frames, one-of-a-kind frames with decorative features requiring high skill, and preservation framing of high-value items, and other kinds of framing projects requiring special expertise will remain the domain of small-independent framers.
 
Jim Miller said:
There will always be a consumer demand for the kinds of custom framing that the dominant segments of the industry can not or will not pursue. For example, only a few framing specialists will be able to take care of the labor-intensive object framing of heirlooms and antique valuables. Hand-made frames, one-of-a-kind frames with decorative features requiring high skill, and preservation framing of high-value items, and other kinds of framing projects requiring special expertise will remain the domain of small-independent framers.
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Which is fine if you're contented being a wage-craftsperson. Not so fine if you're in it for the money.
 
cvm,
Really? There is someone in this business that is in it for the money?

I'm not saying that we shouldn't make a reasonable profit, we're in business after all. But even when I started out in the early 90's I knew that if love wasn't ahead of the money I was in for some disappointment.

There are lots of easier ways to make money.
 
wvframer said:
cvm,
But even when I started out in the early 90's I knew that if love wasn't ahead of the money I was in for some disappointment.
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Hey, we all expect different things from our businesses, I understand that.
 
A museum or a college can call on any distributor and receive wholesaler pricing, they are an institution. Your rep was just brainy enough to figure that out.
 
Rick Granick said:
To me, this is a microcosm of the American economy. When companies started basing compensation on stock options, the easiest way to increase the current stock price was to fire a bunch of people and look for cheaper labor overseas. When Americans lose their jobs they no longer are able to buy what the companies are making, so they have to look to overseas markets to sell their goods. It's a race to the bottom.


Jay was a retailer long before he was a distributor. (On a visit to Chicago many years ago I visited Jay's company and got a personal tour with his vice president. I admired the beautiful inlaid mouldings he was showing, and was thrilled when they became available for me to sell when Jay started Bella.) The real question for local Chicago framers is: Can I make money by selling these mouldings? If the answer is YES, why not sell them? All the local businesses are competing for market share anyway.
I have a similar situation here. Across the street from me is a retail store owned by Frame King Moulding. My work is different (and better) than theirs, and I have my own clientele. Frame King is a good supplier with good merchandise at a good price and local delivery several times a week. I would be shooting myself in the foot by not using them just because that store is over there. (BTW, it was there before I moved to this location 16 years ago.)
:cool: Rick
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Just to be clear, I don't fault Jay for doing it. I think it's brilliant. However, I wonder how many shops lose business to him in that market on those same mouldings because his salespeople tell folks (and I've shopped it and heard it) that other shops in town carry the same items because we sell it to them so we obviously have the best price. If you buy from your competitor you are financing the enemy. If it's a wholesaler or a retailer who dabbles. Either way. How many folks on this board talk politics and have an issue with the fact that the US props up various regimes and then has to go to battle with them, against geurilla armies we financed? Just logical folks.
 
The option I'm exercising is to seek less expensive routes than our local distributors, one of which was supplying artists and consumers before I became a wholesale client: I found two manufacturers who will sell direct to me (one is very big), and Quadrant in Rochester, whose prices are significantly lower than here in Canada, and who is a pleasure to deal with.

Being able to buy direct from a manufacturer is huge: I can buy a beautiful three-inch plastic for half the cost of LJ 2000-6 and sell it for more. I believe that we have to wrestle prices to the ground, and we need distributors to help us do it.
 
wvframer said:
cvm,
Really? There is someone in this business that is in it for the money?
Click to expand...

Yep. If I wasn't I'd go make money somewhere else. I've said it before and I'll say it again. If you aren't making money in this business then either figure out why and fix it or get the heck out and go make a living somewhere. Don't ruin yourself financially because of some strange obligation to the 12 customers who do support you. How many folks on the G have gotten out of this business and moved on? If you aren't doing well and haven't been for some time you need to either change how you are doing things or change what you are doing overall.
 
cvm,
I probably sounded more flip than I meant. Of course we want to make money, and we need to get out if we aren't. But I do think that if you don't have a passion for framing, it is both hard to make money and to be happy.

I decided with my passion I could beat the odds, and so far, I have been right. I could have made more money in other businesses, but I would not be nearly as happy.
 
cvm said:
Which is fine if you're contented being a wage-craftsperson. Not so fine if you're in it for the money.
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Your point is unclear. Are you suggesting that one can not earn a satisfactory income as a small-independent picture framer?

I guess most frame shop owners are what you describe as wage-craftspersons, and we earn enough to maintain a good standard of living and fund our retirements. Anyone who earns a living is "in it for the money" to some degree. Those who do not earn what they consider to be a satisfactory living should seek other income, of course.

Entrepreneurs looking for a much-better-than-average income would not be attracted to picture framing in the first place. And if such a person were already in this business by mistake, he would certainly find exeptional income more easily in other endeavors.
 
pwalters said:
...I wonder how many shops lose business to him in that market on those same mouldings because his salespeople tell folks (and I've shopped it and heard it) that other shops in town carry the same items because we sell it to them so we obviously have the best price...
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That does not necessarily follow. Have you compared the selling price of the Bellas at AFS to that of other Chicagoland shops? Jay understands the concept of perceived value, and I doubt he "lowballs" these mouldings to undercut others. Nevertheless, by the time someone hears a pitch like that they are already in his shop and are probably going to do business there. I still maintain that if other shops feel these are useful design options to complement what they offer, and make good money selling them, they should be unconcerned about what they sell for at AFS.
:kaffeetrinker_2: Rick
 
In a perfect world; no, suppliers should not compete with us. But with so many independent frame shops going out of business; what are they expected to do?

What baffles me too; selling framing to customers is more than just materials. I don't think my customers come to my shop for just that. They come to have the full experience; the service; the design; the absolute satisfaction with the finished job; knowing that I will take on 'impossible' jobs that have been declined elsewhere and so on and so on.
They trust me to do an excellent job. Sure; most framers probably carry the same mouldings as I do. They will probably also in some cases be less expensive. I know some of my suppliers are in direct competition with me and there is not much I can do to stop them as they sell to legitimate businesses.

It doesn't mean I am not concerned of course; but instead of putting my energy into worrying about this; I find it more productive to find other segments of the market where I can excel.
 
Even suppliers with strict guidelines can't weed out everyone that isn't a framer. And where do you draw the line? Most won't do business that is not wholesale, which requires a license or tax certificate or both. In WV they have to collect and report sales tax for any customer without a resale certificate. We also have a Business and Occupation tax that requires a higher rate for retail sales. It is not worth their time to sell retail. The reporting alone is onerous.

I actually get referrals from suppliers. Some sell to artists groups or photographers, some sell to gift shops and even do framing for them. Most sell to museums and the universities. I may lose some occasional small sales, but it is probably more than made up by the referrals alone.

The market continues to shrink and everybody feels it. I have always maintained that my biggest competitor is the customer's closet.
 
Just saw a post from Phillip LaMarche (Gryphon/Royal/LaMarche moulding) on FB thanking the Church of Latter Day Saints for a "huge order."

I asked for clarification if it was length or joined or completed frames in competition with his accounts? :)

I'll repost if he replies.
 
Back in the 80's Eastman Kodak chose to go into competition with their dealers. They purchased a photo lab in markets around the country and then offered wholesale photofinishing to the large drug chains and box stores at prices an independent could not hope to compete with. They put 500 plus independent wholesalers out of business all the while selling them paper and chemistry. Many of the independents went on to open one-hour photo stores and got their supplies from Fuji or others.
The wholesale Kodak (Qualex) lost money and started the downward slide of Eastman Kodak.
 
This is one reason I like CMI moulding. Its owned by one person, and as far as I know, they don't sell to our customers last time I asked. I know they do sell to some artists who have made selling art into a business and have a tax number. I wasn't to happy when one showed up here to have me put a frame together for them. But they can't weed out the ones who can do some of their own framing and who can't. A tax number is a business.

But, yeah. I did do a rant of one company that was trying to take some business from me. Wasn't happy with it.. but luckily the other framer went with me since he asked me first.

luckily for me there aren't any suppliers real close to this area within 20 min or so which is far since its so populated. and the closest one is hidden and no one could find them unless they called and got directions from them.

I get they need business. but I don't think its right... but heck, we already compete with false sales from BB stores, and suppliers have to try to figure a way to beat them as well if they get into the market. Around here I wish a few more frame shops would go away, lol. Im sure we are all just making it, so there needs to be fewer... at least to keep the rest of us a float.
 
Puppiesonacid said:
luckily for me there aren't any suppliers real close to this area within 20 min or so which is far since its so populated. and the closest one is hidden and no one could find them unless they called and got directions from them.
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I rememba back in the day when we used to walk to school and it wasn't child abuse. Back in those days you used to hear people saying strange things like "And I'm so happy because my location is really close to my distributor. It's so convenient!"
 
Ylva said:
In a perfect world; no, suppliers should not compete with us. But with so many independent frame shops going out of business; what are they expected to do?

What baffles me too; selling framing to customers is more than just materials. I don't think my customers come to my shop for just that. They come to have the full experience; the service; the design; the absolute satisfaction with the finished job; knowing that I will take on 'impossible' jobs that have been declined elsewhere and so on and so on.
They trust me to do an excellent job. Sure; most framers probably carry the same mouldings as I do. They will probably also in some cases be less expensive. I know some of my suppliers are in direct competition with me and there is not much I can do to stop them as they sell to legitimate businesses.

It doesn't mean I am not concerned of course; but instead of putting my energy into worrying about this; I find it more productive to find other segments of the market where I can excel.
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Yes, exactly.
:thumbsup: Rick
 
Ylva said:
In a perfect world; no, suppliers should not compete with us. But with so many independent frame shops going out of business; what are they expected to do?

What baffles me too; selling framing to customers is more than just materials. I don't think my customers come to my shop for just that. They come to have the full experience; the service; the design; the absolute satisfaction with the finished job; knowing that I will take on 'impossible' jobs that have been declined elsewhere and so on and so on.
They trust me to do an excellent job. Sure; most framers probably carry the same mouldings as I do. They will probably also in some cases be less expensive. I know some of my suppliers are in direct competition with me and there is not much I can do to stop them as they sell to legitimate businesses.

It doesn't mean I am not concerned of course; but instead of putting my energy into worrying about this; I find it more productive to find other segments of the market where I can excel.
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It sounds like you're doing a very good job of excelling in one segment of the market, and only that segment. If you want to find other segments of the market where you can excel then tough luck unless you start to manufacture on your own.

Sure was nice when we used to sell to photographers. Easy. No spending a lot of time on design providing a whole wonderful experience.

Same with some artists... 50 white mats and gold metal frames! Awesome! So easy!

At the same time as those we had the other customers of which you speak.

So you still have the customers where you can provide the whole experience of service and design. Your suppliers are not providing that added value.

..


..


For now.
 
not sure how to take that comment Johnny?

I see no problem in specializing and be very good at something. I know the whole chant these days is diversify. I happen to disagree, but that is just my opinion.

I am not saying that I excel in one (or more) segment(s); like most businesses, I am struggling along with the rest of them. I just try to do and concentrate on the things that I am good at. It's the only fight I can possibly win.

I can never compete on price if all suppliers decide to open up their own shops or sell directly and I am not fooling myself that that will not happen or that I can prevent it. Sure, I don't like it, I don't think they care that I don't like it.

Therefore; I must find areas where I can compete. Framing is more than just about price.
 
ha, now that you added more; it makes more sense!

Yes; I am also not fooling myself and suppliers might start to compete on what I am offering now. I don't think it will be all too profitable for them though. I realize that our market is changing and again; I don't like it.
I used to frame for galleries; easy orders and nice steady customers. Not anymore. Some photographers; not anymore. Same for artists; most buy direct but also a lot online of course.

It makes it harder to make a living from framing.
 
What I think you're saying is that suppliers are competing with us because what-else-can-they-do but you'll be ok because customers value your design, service and whole customer experience. For now, that's enough to retain one segment of the picture framing consumer but I'm warning you that you shouldn't rely on dominating that advantage in the years to come.
 
Ah ok, sorry... I'm posting and editing as I finish my thoughts which is a horrible way to post.

I'm scatterbrained because ironically we're having our best day of the year.
 
Rob Markoff said:
Just saw a post from Phillip LaMarche (Gryphon/Royal/LaMarche moulding) on FB thanking the Church of Latter Day Saints for a "huge order."

I asked for clarification if it was length or joined or completed frames in competition with his accounts? :)

I'll repost if he replies.
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Heard from Phillip LaMarche.

He states, "LDS has been a wholesale framer for as long as I can remember. actually probably one of the largest. they sell framed religious art through various avenues."

He also went on to ask that I "please consider my spotless reputation of never competing with my customers."

So there you have it.
 
So we had a very successful day here today. So much so that tomorrow was to be my 3rd day off of the year and that's not going to happen now. Spent all my time selling today and not much producing and there are too many things still to follow up on. Pretty happy.

And I've worked until 8PM and I'm winding down by watching a documentary. I see something that I want to look up and so I go to Google and start searching. End up on an obscure messageboard reading a thread. The messageboard has Google ads. BAM a big square box reminding me that my supplier is putting this ad in my customers faces as well as mine all over the internet.

And can I relax now? No. Now I'm all full of anxiety because I'm reminded that I'm in a race. I've been framing my whole life and would like to spend the rest of it framing. But that's not a very safe bet. Certainly nothing to depend on.

So I'm in a race to develop alternate revenue sources so I'm not dependent on this messed up industry. And I need to do it now while I'm still very successful at framing.

And trying to relax at night and having these thrown at me just brings back the anxiety and urgency. So now I'll work all night instead, building other businesses. A dozen websites. Some coaching here and there.

Because when the framing income becomes secondary to the new income then I can relax. I have too many years to go before I can just retire.

But I really hate browsing the web at night now.
 
I question this myself sometimes. I've been framing for 42 years and I really like what I do, but are we craftsmen and craftswomen or are we becoming buggy whip manufacturers and sealing wax makers? :kaffeetrinker_2:
 
Buggy whips were replaced by gas pedals. What is replacing framed art and mementos? Nothing. Wall space still needs art. Wall space is still being built.

How did the iPad product line make Apple rich? Marketing.

We're paying the price for not marketing this "industry". We're not attracting young customers. We're not growing. We're letting others take over our business.

Trouble is, we can't afford the marketing we need.
 
Too often it's just about price, not quality. Here is a Billy Sims jersey that I just took in to be completely redone from scratch. The shop that did this proudly put their sticker on it. They attached it to a freehand hacked out piece of non-archival fome core and it's a mess. I don't know when this was done but the shop is still in business.
I won't name the shop, but they're in Oklahoma.
P1010519.jpg

P1010518.jpg
 
neilframer said:
I question this myself sometimes. I've been framing for 42 years and I really like what I do, but are we craftsmen and craftswomen or are we becoming buggy whip manufacturers and sealing wax makers? :kaffeetrinker_2:
Click to expand...


Here's a link:

http://www.mpdailyfix.com/five-things-you-can-learn-from-glock/


This is what I consider to be the applicable part:

1. Let your customers drive product design
Glock had been making belt buckles and knives for the Austrian military when he got the opportunity to design a handgun for it. He had never designed one, but his clients told him exactly what they wanted (and that they weren’t entirely happy with what his competitors were offering). Without having any preconceived notions of how guns should be made, Glock enlisted the aid of experienced gun designers, applied his own knowledge of modern manufacturing techniques, and came up with an innovative product that wowed the Austrians—and became the go-to pistol for police and military organizations the world over.​
Click to expand...


My customers tell me that we're still relevant. I have a lot of them and I do listen.

What they tell me they want is the driving force behind my next website.

But they also tell me they want me here. They don't want to have to buy someplace else. It's a great feeling when I do have the time to get out and about. The other day I walked to the grocery store. As I'm approaching the building someone is waving and yelling. I look behind me but no one is there. Then I realize she's yelling at me and now I'm close enough to understand the words: "I LOVE MY FRAME! I WON 1st PLACE AND IT'S BECAUSE OF THE FRAME! THANK YOU THANK YOU!"

I went inside and again got recongnized as "the frame guy" and got a hug and another story. I get hugged a lot. It's because of the connection you have to people's lives. Because this is what the customers tell me they want to buy from me: The frames are not just frames just like the art is not just art. We enrich people's homes. Customers tell stories about how they remember certain pieces of art or other framed pieces in their homes when they were children and how they connected to it while they were growing up. They want that piece now so very badly but it's gone. It didn't last. They want to recreate that nourishment for their children. They want their children to connect with something and then, one day, have it themselves. You can't buy that on art.com.

The compliments we get nearly every day are so heartfelt. Some people want to really emphasize how much they appreciate our presence in the community. They tell me why I'm successful. They tell me the things that matter the most to them. Not one mentions price.

One got mad at me the other day. She received a mailing I put out and also saw a newspaper ad. And she said "Why are you doing this? Why are you even spending money on this? You don't need to advertise!" And I said "Of course I do!" And she said "You're always so busy! You're always here! I tell all my friends about how wonderful you are. My whole family does! And my friends tell their friends. We talk about the things we have framed by you! You're so busy, you have to have time for us! You don't need to go out looking for more."

I think she was afraid that I'd become so successful that I'd have to stop working directly with my customers again.

I mentioned wanting to retire to a few other people, again at the grocery store. They are customers that also run their own businesses and I was talking business owner to business owner, or so I thought. They got downright scared. Oh no! You can't! At least you can't before I finish my house!" And I assured each of them that I'd keep my tools regardless.

We had a pick up this week from a guy who lives in Pittsburgh. But I'm in Cleveland. He drove all this way twice, once to drop off the art and select framing and once to pick it up. He said that he did try but he couldn't find anyone who designs like we do and he knows we have great craftsmanship. So it's worth it to him.

And so I think that if anyone could feel secure about the future it could be me. But I'm not. Because I'm worried that my customers won't really be the ones to decide.

I've always been cocky. Nothing can ever stop me. I just don't feel it right now. It's not fear of other framers. Nobody can compete with their own suppliers. And if I get 1500 orders a year from customers like the ones above it doesn't do me any good if I need a minimum of 2500 to be happy. New customers have to keep coming from somewhere, all the time. And for crying out loud some of them need to be easy. You can't just do difficult but amazing things all day every day. On Monday I'm framing 20 pieces for a medical facility. Easy peasy. Took the order over the phone. I wonder how long those customers will be my customers.... or maybe just like the photographers and artists they never were my customers and I was just mistaken all those years.



​
 
I hear you. I have customers who tell me that they really like the product and especially the personalized service. I got a $20 tip the other day just because the customer liked that I cared about how the large frame (51" x 60") was carefully placed in her SUV and that I cushioned it to not damage her car or the frame. We offered to deliver but she was anxious to get it right home.
I rarely have gotten tips over the years so I really appreciated it and called her the next day to make sure it got home and everything went well.
This is part of what drives me, I just wish we could do even more.
Not every customer cares about this type of service, they just shop price.
 
These stories aren't being told, and they should be.

We really are craftspeople. Trouble is, we should have a marketing department.

I was reading about RIM's success: same as the Glock story: they put Blackberries in the hands of celebrities, politicians, VIPs, and got tremendous visibility. Everybody wanted to be seen with a Blackberry. Why not the same with a beautiful custom frame? To their credit, Larson made this commodity visible.
 
Picture frames stay in homes. Glocks and Blackberries go with people. Even cars get out more often than frames.

We are in the category of faucets and furniture and even they have more cachet in the marketplace than we do. The bold look of Kohler. Yadda yadda.

All we can do is keep pleasing our dozen customers who cling to us and maybe find jobs at Mickey D's or Timmie's to pay the rent.

I think we are a dying breed and no one will even think to miss us until we are all gone.
 
This has turned into quite the interesting and heartfelt discussion. Many good points are being made. I started thinking years ago that our trade's challenge long-term would be maintaining the ability to provide a quality product with good design that is still affordable to a market big enough to maintain a critical mass for the survival of both retail framers and their suppliers. It is definitely more difficult to maintain and grow on a niche which is labor intensive and which uses supplies that are ever more expensive. Both economic trends and cultural/technological ones add to that challenge. I'm not sure what the answers are, but I am glad we have a place to put our minds together and brainstorm.
:kaffeetrinker_2: Rick
 
Rick Granick said:
That does not necessarily follow. Have you compared the selling price of the Bellas at AFS to that of other Chicagoland shops? Jay understands the concept of perceived value, and I doubt he "lowballs" these mouldings to undercut others. Nevertheless, by the time someone hears a pitch like that they are already in his shop and are probably going to do business there. I still maintain that if other shops feel these are useful design options to complement what they offer, and make good money selling them, they should be unconcerned about what they sell for at AFS.
:kaffeetrinker_2: Rick
Click to expand...

I doubt he does as well. That would tend to go against all of what he speaks about. I can only tell you that the young lady who we shopped showed some of their mouldings and when I mentioned I had seen them elsewhere (yes, I baited the situation) her comment was that they were the distributor who sells those particular frames to other shops which means that they pay quite a bit less for them and therefore it was more of a value situation. Nobody said cheap. Hey, I think in that situation, we all would use that as a selling point, right?
 
The ads are in my face again today and it gets more annoying because I see them so often I've begun clicking on them.

Before the ads I was trying to completely ignore the whole mess. But now I see where I have been wasting money. I could be saving 40% on some items by purchasing them as a consumer.

It pains me to see something I've been paying $60+ for "wholesale" selling on there for $35. What a fool I've been.

I'm going to have to try to make as much money as I can in the next few years by being a salad bar.

I used to compare myself to a tailor but you can't go to to the tailor's fabric supplier and buy a suit at his cost of fabric so that comparison is history. Now I'm a salad bar.

Ever eat at a salad bar at the grocery store? I get some toppings there: bacon, olives, shredded parm, sweet peppers, sunflower seeds, some veggies. It costs $5 per pound. Then I grab a pound bag of washed lettuce for 99 cents, and use croutons and salad dressing out of bags and bottles I buy when they run out.

Because I really don't want to pay $5 per pound for lettuce, croutons and dressing. I might as well buy some cheap serloin and a bottle of A1 and actually enjoy my lunch.

But all day long people pay $5 per pound for iceberg lettuce and the like.

So maybe I can charge $5 per pound for lettuce for now because I can provide the service, fresh and appealing supplies, and even suggest which items to pick that day and how to arrange them together and the customer is paying for that and the convenience of not having to walk over to the salad aisle and pick up a bag separately.

If you've noticed fewer and fewer customers are staying at our bars and not walking to our salad aisles.

That means it's not sustainable for the long term.

What's next?

Well, we've seen the suppliers expand their definition of the word "frame shop." Do you think they are going to stop?

You can open a frame shop now with practically nothing for a back room. Maybe a 10 x 10 foot room with nothing in it but a mounting press and some fitting materials. The supplier will do the rest - frame, glass, mat with openings, backing. Unfortunately I think you'll still have to invest in a roll of kraft paper.

And so photographers are now the new definition of full blown professional picture framers. So are artists. "Institutions" as well... that's a scary word I wonder what all that encompasses.

You're then becoming an interior designer specializing in art and framing. You know what a lot of the designer's make on that? About 15% above costs. That's a lot more sales for your same amount of income. And guess what... I bet the suppliers definition of "picture frame retailer" is about to expand to interior designers any day now. That's another segment you can count on going from being your customer to your competitor.

To put it more simply: the light manufacturing and the profit potential contained therein is shifting from the framer's back room to the supplier's warehouse and there isn't anything you can do about it because they will just sell right around you.

So I'm stopping at salad bar. By the time I have to be an interior designer I'll be doing something else.
 
So in a better mood tonight. Want to listen to a few songs. Make the mistake of bringing up a video on Youtube.

OH HI JOHNNY HERE AND BUY SOME ATG GOLD FROM YOUR SUPPLIER FOR 40% LESS THAN YOU'VE BEEN PAYING FOR YEARS!!! YAY!!! YAYAYYYYYYYYYY!!!!


Just ruin the whole god #### internet for me why don't you.


Every site.


I can't do anything without being reminded of this ####.
 
Just wait it out, Johnny, and enjoy that sirloin:

- more convictions and multi-million-dollar penalties for fraudulent discounts will come, followed by Chapter 11;
- people will realize that art.com's prices are carp;
- people will get tired of Chinese carp on their walls;
- the economy will turn for the good, and quality and service will win out;
- your neighbours will finally realize that you are a generous donor, and will return for your framing;
- "Made in USA" will be a standard, and,
- "Framing Wars" will be a monster hit on Discovery
 
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