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ERIC

ERIC

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Dec 31, 2001
Posts
1,851
Loc
New York's Hudson River Valley
Business
Newburgh Mercantile
I just got off the phone w/Studio to go over the charges on an invoice. I ordered 3 sticks and asked for "cut 6 and balance". I noticed a $5 add'l shipping listed in the summery. They say that UPS now considers any box over 6 feet to be oversize and adds $5 Whats the deal :mad: The box was 6'4" by the way.

I can't seem to get anyone @ UPS to give me a straight answer. Which is appropriate since they also can't seem to deliver a box that's straight either! Is this additional cost something we will all be facing or is Studio not able to deal with overcharges by UPS's billing dept. and then just passing it onto us?
 
Ups and FEDEX have both been adding surcharges for what they call oversize packages. So far FEDEX has been easier to deal with on mat-board and moulding shipments. I suggest asking FEDEX to quote on all oversize shipments using their economy 3-day ground service. We at United are currently negotiating with UPS to eliminate these extra charges. Time will tell.
Peter Ackerman
 
Originally posted by ERIC:
They say that UPS now considers any box over 6 feet to be oversize and adds $5 Whats the deal :mad:
....
Is this additional cost something we will all be facing or is Studio not able to deal with overcharges by UPS's billing dept. and then just passing it onto us?
Click to expand...
Oh boy, I've been wanting to vent on this!

Actually, it's $5 for any box over 60", which is 5'. And they've been doing it (UPS, that is) starting, oh, about 8 or 10 years ago. First it was $1. OK, we didn't like it, but not that big a deal. Then it was $2. Then.... you get the idea. It's been $5 since February of 2001. In addition, as Peter hinted at, there is what is referred to as "Oversize". This again started out small and has gotten bigger. I understand the philosophy behind it, but don't agree with it for moulding. Here's the reason:

The purpose of "oversize" is to make up for those big boxes full of peanuts or other light objects that take up a lot of room but don't weigh much. I understand and can appreciate that in philosphy. However, the way it is implemented in Ground shipments both by UPS and FedEx Ground is a measurement of Length + Girth Combined (LGC). For relatively cubic type packages it works fine, but when you start applying that principle to a long skinny box of moulding, or a flat box of matboard, you quickly add up the numbers without taking up much space. In fact, UPS/FedEx both use what is called "Dimensional Weight" (DWT) on their Air shipments because they thought they were losing out with only oversize. DWT is figured on actual cubic volume and follows the formula of (L X W X H) / 194. Of course, like OS, DWT is the minimum they'll charge.

UPS has had Oversize for years. Any box more than 84" in LGC was charged a minimum of 30#. For us, since our standard size box is 5 x 4 x 98" (which we often cut down to shorter lengths) there was a minimum of 30# charged on any box, regardless of whether there was 1 stick in it or it was full (full it will weigh about 35-50# depending on profile and species). So if we subtract the fixed girth of our box (5x2 + 4x2) of 18 we find that we can ship a box up to 66", or 5'6" before this kicks in.
Then UPS seemed to have an attack of greed and says "Hmmm, that seems to be working, and we don't really have any competition, why not go for the Gold?" and implemented Oversize #2 (OS). For any package with a LGC of 108" or more they charge a minimum of 70#. This was also implemented in Feruary of 2001. So, for our boxes, any one that is more than 90", or 7'6", gets charged 70#.

Are you having fun yet?


To demonstrate to our UPS Account Executive how unfair this practice is I worked up some numbers comparing DWT with OS and OS2. What it amounts to is that OS & OS2 fit pretty closely with DWT IF THE BOX IS A CUBE. However, at 5'6" (the point at which they charge 30# for OS), by DWT we would be charged 7#. At 7'6" (the point at which they charge 70# for OS2) they would charge for 10#. Even if you carry it up to our full box size of 98" they'll charge for 11# at DWT. I really don't think he understood. He said he'd go back and talk to the head honchos about it, but nothing ever came of it.

Unsurprisingly, it is often cheaper to send by 3 Day Select, which uses DWT, than Ground. In fact, for further distances it is sometimes even cheaper to send a package Second Day Air (!) than regular ground. I'll give you an example: one of our standard boxes, at 15#, from Vermont to the left coast (zone 8) costs $41.01 by ground, and $40.24 by 2 Day.

While we are a relatively small comapny, we are large enough to be what UPS calls a "Preferred Customer". Apparently we aren't preferred enough that we really count. I have no doubt that some of the larger companies have made deals with UPS to reduce or eliminate these unfair charges or measurement practices. In the mean time the end customer keeps paying more and more :mad:

I don't know if all this makes sense. I may have left out some pertinent information that I don't realize you need to know. But you get the basic idea.

Now you know, whether you wanted to or not.
 
I don't know if anyone out there uses DHL WorldWide Express for a courier but they are really good for shipping awkward and oversized pieces anywhere in North America and world wide. We ended up shipping a box that was close to five feet by six feet and was about 12 inches deep once and it went from Winnipeg to New York to Dallas and all the way back up here with the frame and box still in one piece. They don't mind shipping oversized or strange sized pieces. Most of the other shipping companies have troubles with the conveyor belt systems at their warehouses, that's why there's a size restriction. Long moulding has a tendency of getting stuck in the belt when it's going around a corner, hence the twists and turns and general destruction. The staff don't like having to take a package off of the belt much either,it seems to take extra effort to do that.
DHL by the way doesn't charge extra for anything 'oversized', their rates are less and most of their stuff goes out on aircraft next day.

Nikki
 
I have been fighting a losing battle with Larson-Juhl over this very thing. There seems to be no English equivalent phrase for "Cut my moulding so that I don't have to pay an extra $12.00 for oversized UPS shipping without cutting a 10' 2" piece into 3 pieces!" The St. Louis LJ warehouse states that UPS charges oversized for anything over 5'.

I recently ordered 6 or 7 lengths of various LJ mouldings. All of them except one were pulled and cut in half so that they fit into a 5' box. The shortest one (I ordered 6' of this moulding) was pulled in a 12' length and cut in half! And it all went into a 6' box which was charged as oversized ($24.00) for a trip of less than 90 miles!)

My first question to the LJ warehouse manager was, "Out of an entire bin of that moulding, was there not one piece that was between 6' and 12'?????) My suggestion was to cut the durned thing in half, ship my 6' piece to me (cut in 2 3' pieces) and put the other 6' piece back in the bin for the next guy who needs either 6' or less or 12' to 18' of that moulding. There would be 2 satisfied customers instead of at least one p*ssed customer (me!) and another who probably got 7' to 10' too much moulding on HIS order.

What gets me is Larson and many of the other suppliers will deliver daily or weekly to their customers within a 50 or 60 mile radius of the warehouse and these customers get their moulding in one piece (not cut to fit in a box), their matboard without all the corners bent to kingdom come, all the boxes of glass they could ever use along with sheets of Acrylite and any other oversized item that UPS won't normally handle AND they DON'T have to pay a penny for delivery!! What a deal!!! That's like getting a $20.00 to $30.00 or more credit on their orders when you figure the shipping that they are saving!

And the distributors gladly PAY one of their employees to drive a delivery truck to deliver these orders and gladly pay for the gas and insurance and maintenance and upkeep on these vehicles to get these orders to those customers that are inside the "magic ring".

I happen to have my business over the magic delivery range so I get once a month delivery (out of the goodness of their hearts) and I usually wind up paying over $150.00 per month for UPS charges which bring me cut up moulding which many times are damaged by throwing the box around on the loading dock, mat board with corners bent so badly that they have to be trimmed 2" all around to get to a serviceable board surface, and forget about anything like a 4'x8' of Acrylite or a 40"x60" oversized matboard, or boxes of glass.

So what is the solution to this neverending battle?? I can't afford to drive into St. Louis once a week to pick up a mat and moulding order. I am tired of paying outrageous UPS charges for shipping to one zone away from the warehouse. I can't seem to impress upon the people doing the pulling and cutting of moulding in the warehouse that it means alot in postage to pull a 10' piece of moulding rather than pull an 11' piece of moulding. It isn't ALWAYS possible to get the right lengths but it seems like lengths would work out correctly once in awhile!

I KNOW for a fact that, if the moulding length that I order is cut in half, I can get my frame out of it. But I don't need to be consistently shipped 5' to 8' of moulding more than what I order and have the sticks cut in such a way as to put the order into an "oversized" shipping box.

Whew! Boy, that REALLY felt GOOD!

But I didn't go off on a rant 'n rave to feel good. I would like to see some changes made for us who are out there in the boonies struggling to make a living to begin with.

These distributors COULD give us a bit of a break on shipping. They COULD make deliveries maybe TWICE a month so we didn't have to order much of what we need in between and still have to pay for this ripoff shipping. Negotiations COULD be tried with the shipping companies to try to get a more reasonable packaging limit on such specialized products as frame moulding. I don't know of any other product that is shipped through UPS that HAS to be shipped in such an odd sized box. Maybe some concessions should be made by the carriers for this unique situation.

Framerguy
 
Framerguy, It felt good just reading your rant, diatribe, monologue. I feel your pain. I have never dealt with out of state vendors before now. You are so right about the advantage of hometown deliveries. Sometimes I wonder why I bother. I have two major out of town vendors, Roma and Studio. I have never been charged for anything oversized from Roma. I was horrified when I got my first couple of orders from Studio. I actually paid $24.00 worth of shipping on a $40.00 order. Not very profitable. I've also gotten the song and dance on the oversized boxes. I was originally told 6 feet. Now it is 5 feet, I had somebody at Studio tell me it was 4 feet once. I don't think the people at Studio give you the option to discuss a smaller size. The first time I gave them cutting instructions so they could cut it smaller, they acted like I was being a pain. If you are ordering 5 or 6 frames you can absorb that charge better. If you are ordering 1 or 2 it really affects your bottom line.

The problem is I really like Roma and Studio products. At least I do have free delivery on glass and mats etc.
 
My turn!! Every so often, I have to ship artwork somewhere. I don't use UPS because they won't insure anything with glass in it. So, I set up a Fedex account as they don't seem to mind glass. When I make a crate, I use at least 1x4 pine for the edges and 1/4 inch Luan plywood for the top and bottom. Then I put 1x4 strips down the sides to stiffen them and then I even put handles onto the stiffeners so they can actually move them without dragging and throwing them. I ship them out and then get a bill from Fedex with a $40.00 surcharge because the item wasn't in a cardboard box!!! Here, I build a crate ten times stronger than a cardboard box so they won't have to pay a damage claim when they break the art, and the idiots surcharge me $40.00!! :mad: :mad: :mad:
After a heated exchange on the phone with them, they finally deducted the surcharge. Someone, somewhere in their ivory tower needs to come back to reality and reassess their charging structure. I also ordered 40ft. of fillet from Colorado, cut 5 and 5 and was charged $24.00 for shipping which was as almost as much as the fillets themselves. How are we supposed to price these thing properly when nonsense like that happens??
Well... that felt a little better.
That felt good!!
 
Paul & Nikki,

I want to personally THANK you for your post. I went to DHL's website, found out that they have a terminal in St. Louis, and I contacted that terminal just at closing. The lady I talked to was so courteous and helpful and she took my business information and is going to have a sales person call me tomorrow.

I have spent literally hundreds of dollars trying to find a courier who will make small deliveries to my town from the St. Louis area and, FINALLY, I found one that will come to Salem and not charge me extra and doesn't concern themselves with how big a box is. They will deliver glass, oversized mat board, long moulding, OH, I'M REALLY LIKIN' THIS, YEAH!!! :D

I will keep you all posted on how this turns out and maybe it will help some of you who are out of the "magic circle" of deliveries by these guys.

Framerguy
 
I am the first to admit that I am spoiled rotten. There is almost nobody that I order anything from that doesn't deliver free to Appleton at least once-a-week. Okay, United Mfrs, but that's it. Some of these vendors are coming 200 miles, but we're on the way from there to somewhere else. In fact, one of my top criteria when considering a new vendor is whether they have a truck that comes to Appleton regularly.

If it sounds like I'm rubbing it in, Framerguy, that's because I am.
 
framerguy
How far are you from the last shop they deliver to? Maybe you could work out an arrangement to have them deliver to that shop then pick it up in your van? Maybe just on the heavy stuff?
Jim Ohio
PS I would not do it for you but maybe you might find someone who would.
 
In the words of the immortal Yoda, "Having a van to pickup things, I don't".

We did this for awhile when one of my framer friends was still around. But we still had to drive over 30 miles to his sister's place to pick up glass and oversized stuff.

Ron,

Rub it in you may, but knowing that it takes a military 4WD Hummer do I, through the piles of rubble and construction crap to maneuver.

Deliveries you may also get but crabby guys in the trucks are driving.

(Would Yoda REALLY say THAT??)

Guy who Frames am I
 
FYI

I have posted a poll on the Vendors Only list to see if there is any interest in an industry coalition to negotiate more reasonable rates with UPS.
 
Very glad to hear that David.

I can't imagine what possible reason any supplier would have to NOT want to get better rates and more flexible container limits for their customers. That is such an obvious win/win situation for both sides.

I wish you luck in getting a consensus on this thorny subject.

Framerguy
 
Eight percent of my COG, or as Jay suggests--cost of materials--was shipping last year. I expect it will be more this year.

As for Studio, I swear even if they cut down the length as requested which they don't always do, they put it in a too-long box. Their problems (see "Studio" thread) definitely relate to their warehouse help, but I can testify that at least on the West coast they have improved. And maybe they read Eric's rant before they sent out my last shipment because there was an $18 shipping charge, with a $10 "freight allowance" subtracted from it! Go figure. I can't.

I'm waiting to vote on this. Even though we keep thinking up things that PPFA can/should do for us, this seems like an very appropriate type of service they could provide.
 
This is why Lfesaver initiated in its last update the Goltz Moulding Factor. It's in your "config" area and in it you plug in an amount--any amount you want. I get LJ free delivery, but Studio, etc we pay for. So, into my Jay Goltz Moulding Factor box goes $.50. This then adds $.50/ft to every order written. Hence an order calling for 10 ft gets added 5 bucks. So when I DO order something that requires UPS, it's covered.

For you folks that need to ship everything UPS your factor may be as high as $2 or so. POint is, your customers don't see this hidden charge and you've got your delivery covered.

Don't know how you'd figure it using pencil and paper, but I love this added feature LIfesaver put in. :rolleyes:
 
Marcia brings up an intersting point of her Freight In running approx 8% with an expected increase this year.

How many others run that high? Do you adjust your retail prices to match the corresponding mark-up? That would be an increase of around 25-30% higher than if it were free or no frieght.

There must be some secrets to reducing freight charges-the first that comes to mind is reducing the number of vendors to consolidate frieght shipments. But, wow, 8% at cost is a ton.

There has to be some methods to reduce frieght charges, and while well meaning, I don't think there is much chance of getting shippers to change for such a small industry, even if there was some concerted effort.

Boy, location really makes a difference again, doesn't it
 
As i said over and over and over... order mouldings, mats, glass, etc. my volume. I get mouldings by the boxes... i order 200+ mats at a time (or mix boxes of mouldings with only 25-75 mats). For example, an order of 5 boxes of mouldings and 200 sheets of mat sent to me by truck only costs me about $125.00. Adding the cost of shipment to the mouldings and mats only increased MY costs by a few cents.
 
I must be a victim of fuzzy math today -- I'm estimating high on cost -- 200 sheets of matboard at $10 per sheet is 2,000. At $120 a shipment thats 6 percent. I figured one would have to order about $10,000 at a time before I would consider the shipping to only be pennies.

I pay different amounts using the same shipping company (not UPS) and from different suppliers for roughly the same size box--all in my area. Some invoice a flat $10 and others up to $11.80, not counting "discounts" and "packing fees" or "small order charge", ad infinitum.

Say I order 40 feet at an average price of $2 a foot -- at $10 shipping thats over 12%. Okay, so I'm stuck in the 80's and a median price length is more like $3 a foot, times 40 = $120. I'm still paying more than 8% at $10 a box......and $10 is considered cheap.

The solution of ordering chop to save shipping doesn't always work -- At about $8 min, plus chop fees -- say on a couple of frames -- you do the math.

I went through several invoices & various suppliers after reading this thread and do not believe 8% is high for an average sized shop, especially if many of the items are shipped and even bundle type purchasing is consistantly done.

I don't have the figures available to report my actual percentage, so that's why I'm not saying it!
 
Rosetl.... you stated:

"I must be a victim of fuzzy math today -- I'm estimating high on cost -- 200 sheets of matboard at $10 per sheet is 2,000. At $125 a shipment thats 6 percent. I figured one would have to order about $10,000 at a time before I would consider the shipping to only be pennies."

The numbers i stated are INCLUDING BOXES OF MOULDINGS....PICTURE FRAME MOULDINGS.
Boxes of mouldings average 450 (1" /650'... 3" /250') feet per box. The total footage of 5 boxes is: 2250 feet. 2250 plus 200 sheets of museum matboard totals 2450 (moulding footage and mat sheets). The shipping is approx $125.00. $125.00 divided by 2450 = .0510204 cents.... 5 cents per foot/per item. If only the shipment cost of the moulding is calculated it is only .055555555... 5.5 cnets per foot. What does the cost of what you ordered have anything to do with the cost of shipment. If the items are GIVEN TO ME, it still would cost for shipping....THAT IS WHAT'S CALCULATED HERE...THE SHIPPING COST...NOT THE COST OF THE ITEM. If the price per foot is 100.00 or 1 cent, it still averages 5 cents per foot/per item or 5.5 cents per foot for the moudling ONLY. Again....the shipping IS ONLY pennies...

If your calculations are still fuzzy use your calculator.

ajhohen
 
"What does the cost of what you ordered have anything to do with the cost of shipment."

Because that is how one would figure the percentage of shipping cost to materials cost....which is just another way to look at the numbers.

In your response you have looked at the numbers by coming up with a shipping cost per foot and or sheet--which is probably more useful than a percentage when it comes to pricing moulding, etc. It's pretty clear, when ordering by box lots the shipping is negligible per foot compared to one small chop.

There sure can be a GULP when one see's that they have paid well over $1.00 a foot for packing and shipping on a small order versus 20 cents on a more average sized length order.

Not fuzzy math afterall, just different ways to look at the numbers.
 
Wiseframerguy,
Have you checked out Tidwell's?
I get Larson Juhl delivered to me once a week, uncut length, (they don't care how long the boxes are)and in Good Condition for about $24.00. I can usually get a couple of boxes of glass, moulding and a box of matboard before I reach the weight hurdle.
Good guys them, hope your way travel.
 
Barb,

Tidwell's was GREAT, until they decided to stop delivering way out here in the desolate reaches of the Universe. I used them for about 2 years and had absolutely no problem with them whatsoever.

BTW, DHL didn't work out for me. They specialize in same-day and overnight express only and their charges for what my average weekly order would have been was around $145.00.

I would love to go back to Tidwell if you can swing enough weight on that bad foot of yours to convince them that they really need to take care of the ol' Framerguy and not to worry so much about the Indians and the rustlers out here. ;)

FGII
 
FGII,
I thought you had already figured the solution to you delivery woes...move to Florida :cool: . The Clearwater area has at least 2 distributors that offer weekly delivery, and LJ in Lakeland will be there twice a week. If you set up in Steinhatchee you may be in the same situation you're in now with the exception of the milder winters.

I also noticed a shipping allowance on my last length order from Studio, and there was no handling charge.
 
Timely statement, Wally, I am going to fly to Tampa on the 24th to look at a number of gallery operations from Clearwater down to Venice.

I have a millstone around my neck right now with this building I own in So. IL. The economy is so depressed here and real estate isn't selling well at all. But there will be a solution to that problem when the time comes and I plan to simply forge ahead and look for a more lucrative area to do my work.

Glad to hear that I am looking at an area with honest to goodness delivery service though.


Framerguy
 
I regret to inform you that there doesn't seem to be much interest among those in the vendors only forum to do anything about this.

BUT! that doesn't mean your vendor doesn't care, or that nothing can be done. There has been very limited participation in the VO forum of any sort (as you have probably noticed).

If you don't like the shipping charges you are paying, tell your vendors. Those vendors that are customer service driven (per Jay Goltz's article in the June PFM) they will respond if enough people make their opinions known (aka complaining ;) )
 
Oh dearie me I is spoiled. We pay a flat rate of $15(AUS) per order with most companies and if I remember correctly, with our main supplier, once the order is over $400 free delivery. I can be corrected on this last statement as I don't handle the books but I think I'm right.If we order before 11am we can rely on delivery by 12 the next day and we are 500km from our nearest supplier. We order once a week normally but if circumstances dictate more often so be it. I think I'll stay down here even if we are upside down. Regards Alan
 
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