sealing a frame

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jtn685

Grumbler in Training
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Feb 28, 2008
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I've had this problem before, so I'm putting it out to you...

What do you do when someone wants to put artwork in a high humidity room like a bathroom. We've tried a few things like using silicone to seal the glass to the frame and then using mylar on the back. We also make sure they know that this is not a perfect system and there is a good chance their artwork will be damaged.

Are there any other better ideas out there?

Thanks,
JTN
 
I have two pieces of "art" in my heavily used bathroom....a poster, drymounted, no mat, metal frame and an original watercolor, double matted, reg glass and wood frame. No special "sealing". They both have there for over fifteen years and have no visible signs of damage.
 
Make sure they have a good exhaust fan and use it.

:shrug:

Other than that what you are doing appears to be the only preventive procedure if your recommendations aren't going to be followed.

Glad to see you solved your login problems.
 
The humidity issue depends on where they're located in the country though. Pictures hung in the midwest during the summer are going to fare differently than those in Arizona in the summer.

If you're not in a high humidity climate, I'd just do things like normal and tell them to use their fan or crack a window if possible to let the steam out.
 
You can maker a true sealed frame package with metalized polyester film and glass. Hugh Phibbs teaches a class on this technology. Essentially the film is wrapped around the mount/mat/glass package and attached to the perimeter of the glass with GE hot melt glue. Properly done it forms a true vapor barrier and stabilizes the atmosphere inside the frame package. The film is trimmed so that it is well hidden in the rabbet.

If the object and mat/mount material can be conditioned to standard temp and relative humidity (70 degrees at 50%RH) before sealing, the contents will be kept at the ideal RH as long as the seal remains in tact.
 
just frame it like you would for an outhouse. (you do know what an out house is?)
 
Attempting to seal a picture framing job from humidity is just plain stup........a waste of time. Have you ever looked at your watch and noticed that the inside face of the crystal was all fogged up? Do you honestly think you could seal a picture frame to the same extent as a watch that is rated to 300'? Even if you could, you could not stop the humidity, as in the watch crystal fogging up.

With all due respect to Hugh Phibbs (his last name is appropriate in this case) attempting waterproofing a framing package is just nonsense. The best thing you can do is use rag mats with a good rag backing.

John
 
John, the technology is tried and proven. As far as I know all pieces on loan from the National Gallery use this technology. We are talking about ambient atmosphere in this regard...1 to be specific. Perhaps a bit more research on the technology would be in order before passing judgement.
 
wpfay said:
If the object and mat/mount material can be conditioned to standard temp and relative humidity (70 degrees at 50%RH) before sealing, the contents will be kept at the ideal RH as long as the seal remains in tact.
Click to expand...

Wally, under those conditions, not much of anything is going to have a humidity problem. Even the watch crystal will not fog up. How often do most frame shops have standard temperature (15 c.) and 50%rh. humidity? Is 50% humidity too much?

It is just not a realistic endeavor for most frame shops to embark on. I will hold my position that for most frame shops, it is a pure waste of time. Especially those that have used silicone seals and such. What if, for some reason, they find themselves having to break one of these "sealed" packages down?.

For framing in high humidity areas, using rag mats, rag backing, and several sheets of rag board between the foam core and the dust cover, is about the best you can do.

John
 
As Wally says, it is a tried and true technology. I would think most shops are in the general range of RH and T, if only for the comfort of the staff. If not, it shouldn't be too difficult to manufacture the correct range of RH and temperature using heaters/humidifiers or dehumidifiers, for the few days needed to acclimatize matboards etc. If this is not one's area of interest, one could always refer the client to another framer. Insurance restoration outfits, that dry things out after floods, often have an art branch that could probably partner with this too.

It's nice to be able to provide the option.

Rebecca
 
I'll agree that the technology isn't for everyone. You are much more succinct in your response than you are in your original statement...the first painting the technology and its creator in a fairly negative light.
My hopes are that we are going to try to assimilate the technologies of preservation into our routine as best we can. If we don't let the technologies be known there will be no advancement in the craft. In our attempts to set ourselves apart from the crowd, knowing and offering advanced technolgy can be a critical tool.
 
Ok, my first response was a little on the blunt side. I do apologize to Hugh Phibbs for the shot. I am sure, especially since Rebeca came on board, that there is some merit to this advanced technology. I do not believe I will be jumping on this bandwagon anytime soon. I honestly feel that not much will be gained over just using good quality water absorbing materials in the frame package. No matter what you do, there will always be a certain amount of moisture within the package.

Granted, there would be some added protection, but how much over what was considered standard as I described above? Would that limited amount of increased protection be enough to justify the extra time involved in creating this "sealed" atmosphere for the art?

I'm not even sure if depriving paper art completely of air would be all that good for the art. Has that concept been tested and proved? Is it possible that paper can become too dry?

John
 
Lots of good questions there John! I'll try to tackle a couple of them...

I think the sealed package thing depends on where the art will be, and how valuable it is to the owner. I don't know what it is like in your area. In mine it is humid, but indoors, with winter heating, not wildly so. Summer is not bad at all. I have one bathroom that would not be a problem using Coroplast or Mylar on the back, and one one that would be a problem. However, the stuff I own is not world class and I can always fix it if there is a problem. Wally and Buddy live in very humid areas, that I imagine would challange even the best HVAC systems. So they would have more call to use sealed framing even if the piece were not hugely valuable.

Also, some things are really fragile and can be damaged with changes in RH - think panel paintings, heavily inked screen prints, or very moisture reactive papers like gampi. And some things, if they are damaged, simply can't be fixed if they are moisture or water damaged. So sealed framing makes sense in those cases.

A true seal would protect over and beyond Coroplast and matboard. Maybe not so much for normal, benign conditions, but certainly for more extreme situations.

Sealed framing doesn't "suffocate" paper, and paper doesn't need fresh air; though you do bring up a good point. Research has shown that encapsulated (Mylar) paper that is acidic doesn't do as well as paper that has been deacidified or at least backed with zeolite paper. Thought there is very little air in the encapsulation, Mylar is not a perfect moisture barrier (and the chemical reactions that break down the paper require moisture to occur). So sealed framing would be better with zeolite mats in there, to absorb any volatile acids etc. emitted by the art. But since sealed framing uses glass, there would be a limited amount of moisture available inside of the package...

Last thought - paper (and textiles) actually last better at low RH - in the 20 - 30% - but they become more brittle, so need more care in handling. The 50% RH recommendation was devised for general collections, and isn't hard and fast as far as reality is concerned (that's a history of conservation kind of topic...) but it has been adopted as a standard by most institutions. An institution that wants to be included in the collections loan circuit needs to demonstrate that they can maintain that environment. Or, the loaning institution makes sure their loans are maintained in controlled mini environments, like sealed framing.

Rebecca
 
Thanks Rebecca, you are a true asset to The Grumble. Sometimes I wish I would slow down before I go mouthing off. I'm referring to my Hugh Phibbs wise a ss remark.

I appreciate your input, you have cleared this issue up a lot, at least in my mind.

John
 
Hugh Phibbs' class on frame sealing is excellent. We are fortunate to have the benefit of his direct exposure to some of the best conservation experts and testing facilities in the world. Many of us appreciate his willingness to share his unique knowledge and experience as a framer.

When frame sealing comes up, the focus is usually on what we want to seal out of a frame package. But we need to be careful what we seal into a frame package, as well. If reactive chemicals and excessive moisture are sealed in, their detrimental effects would not go away. Sealed-in problems may be amplified when the frame's contents can not acclimate to changing ambient conditions. For instance, excess moisture in a sealed frame package could produce the same conditions found in a terrarium; a miniature rain forest full of mold and mildew.

When dealing with items of significant value in my retail business, I generally avoid sealing frames for these reasons: 1) I do not have the equipment to test whether the hygroscopic materials are properly conditioned; 2) I do not have the scientific knowledge to determine whether reactive chemical elements may be sealed in; and 3) the promise of a sealed frame may lead my consumer customers to a false sense of security. A conservator would be better able to assure long term success.

On the other hand, when a sealed frame package is appropriate for replaceable items of insignificant value, such as decorative art to be displayed in a bathroom, garage, or enclosed patio, it's useful to know how to do it right.
 
Hi Jim,

Theoretically speaking, I would think that if Artcare or some zeolite containing material were in the sealed package, it would continue to remove any reactants that might evolve from the artwork. And if the moisture content remained steady, my guess is that an equilibrium would be reached, and there wouldn't be a problem.

When you look at patterns of degradation in books, for example, it's the edges that yellow first as they are exposed to the elements (new reactants). Or old frame jobs with the shingle backings - the most damage is at the cracks or joins. So I'd think the sealed package would quickly reach a "not much happening in there" steady state because no new reactants could be introduced.

Re acclimatizing your matboards etc. to the right RH, I would think that cranking the heat up to drive out moisture would do the trick. It could be checked with RH strips or a room hygrometer. I know that a low tec way to ready photos and negatives for frozen storage is to put them in a sealed package with matboard that has been dessicated in a toaster oven : ).

I will be interested to hear what Hugh has to say.

Rebecca
 
In a hinging class Hugh pointed out a good way to desiccate blotter paper is the good old vacuum press set at 220F.
 
Rebecca said:
...I'd think the sealed package would quickly reach a "not much happening in there" steady state because no new reactants could be introduced...
Click to expand...

That makes sense. I have no doubt that you're right.

But having suffered for my own ignorant mistakes in the past, I prefer to err on the side of caution, and consult a professional scientist when chemistry issues come into my framing of anything valuable.

The difference between you saying that and me saying that is that you're actually qualified to have the opinion, and I'm not.

Thanks for your sharing your opinions here.
 
Framers should be skeptical and should decide for themselves. The best evidence available to us comes, as Rebecca noted, from old books and frames. One can find antique books with gilded fore edges that have pristine pages and prints pasted to the inside lids of wooden boxes that are in remarkable shape, after 500 years. In the face of pollution, extremes of climate, and biological challenges, it is safe to say that enclosure beats exposure. How to enclose is where differing techniques can be used. A properly taped package, comprising acrylic sheet and Coroplast/Core-X backing board, can be submerged for over an hour, without leaking. A package made with sealing foil laminate and unbroken glass can maintain its conditioning indefinitely, but as has been noted, the contents of a sealed package must be properly conditioned, before the package is closed. An ordinary frame may do fine in a bathroom, where moisture comes and goes and may suffer more on a wall that is wicking moisure from an exterior source. Frames made with glass and Coroplast, carefully taped together, with a flexible tape like 3M 371-0 may work quite well to resist climate change, in ordinary settings that range from wet to dry, but only a completely sealed package (glass and foil/laminate) is safe to expose to constantly wet or dry conditions.


Hugh
 
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