Say what? from Decor's latest E-tip

FrameMakers

PFG, Picture Framing God
Joined
Mar 20, 2001
Posts
7,395
Loc
Powell, OH
7. Mounting Press-Almost everything in a frame should be mounted, otherwise the art may buckle and/or eventually come in contact with the glass.
Do these guys pay attention to the articles they publish?

A mounting press is a valuable tool in my shop, but I don't mount "almost everything" not even close.
 
I think a lot of that stuff is written by staffers who aren't remotely familiar with picture framing. I bet you didn't know that a "chopper" could be bench mounted and that you should get one that cuts aluminum.

The Decor magazine article on saw blades was written by someone who knew almost nothing about the subject; he relied on interviews with "experts" who waren't particularly expert,either. Each expert said there wasn't when asked if there was anything new with saw blades on the horizon. I guess they hadn't heard of ceramic tips which are on the market now and outlast carbide about 20 to 1.

I look through Decor for the advertising.
 
Warren,
If decor keeps up like this they will be again be my most favorite Mag. But for a different reason. I used to like it because of the konwledge & expertise it brought.
I think I like it now because it will be throwing so many curve ball things like these to those new to the industry. It will keep my new competition in the dark a little longer. I must admit it amuses me more now ( I laugh more when I read the articles) and it is a bit more entertaining. Almost as good as when Crescent's tip of the month was to cut the bat in half!!! Hey maybe it is the same writer?
My Apologies to Decor, but at least get someone Like Vivian Kistler or someone to review these things before printing.
 
Originally posted by Warren Tucker:
I bet you didn't know that a "chopper" could be bench mounted and that you should get one that cuts aluminum.
My Morso does a great job going through metal. I know when I need to sharpen the blades when the tops of the moulding starts to get crushed!
 
I'd probably be okay with that if they didn't mention "mounting press." After all, nearly everything framed DOES need to be mounted in some fashion - dry mounted, Mylar corners, Japanese hinges - whatever.

I don't read every word of Decor, but I can't imagine NOT getting it. I don't look at most of what's on the internet, but I think I'll keep getting that, too.

(Edited so this almost makes sense.)

[ 08-04-2004, 03:41 PM: Message edited by: Ron Eggers ]
 
There is a lot of difference between writing something that you know about and something that you've read about; even if you've read everything you can find on the subject.

As you know, I read all the time, but unless I can take something I've read and adapt it or view it through the lens of my own experiences, it's just so much fluff...

You'll notice that I never write about technique. You all are soooo much more experienced than I am.

Betty
 
Warren I am not trying to refute your opinion. I 'm even worse on Technical knowledge then Betty claims to be.And i do agree that a lot of writers ask for input and take notes without completely understanding what they are being told.I also think some framers give interviews with out relaizeing that not everyone is familiar with FRAMING JARGON. But I have heard people refer to a miter saw as a chop saw and just maybe that is where the error lies.
They were talking about saws and they said "CHOPPER" meaning a chop saw or as most would call them a miter saw.Many of those will cut aluminum and some are even be "BENCH MOUNTED".
What do you think?
BUDDY
 
But if the trade journal writers us confusing language*^%$#. This is where there the facts should start.
 
As I said, "remotely familar with picture framing"; anyone who was would know what a "chopper" is. And then there is that "straight edge" part of a mat cutter that allows one to cut oval or circular mats. There really isn't any excuse for the content; someone who knows almost nothing (and probably nothing) about picture framing presuming to give advice to those who do (to whom else are thse tips aimed?). Unfortunately, I think these "Tips" reflect the quality of most of the editoral content in Decor.

There was a three page spread about us in Decor about 20 years ago.
 
[q] But if the trade journal writers us confusing language*^%$#. This is where there the facts should start.[/q]

I am starting to write like them.
shrug.gif
 
OK Guys calm down….

I’m not condoning bad journalism but you have to give Décor E-Tips some due credit…..they have placed there tips on an open web site for all to see and they have also emailed them to framers all over the world ……..which at least allows there errors to be debated and hopefully correct…..this thread is a good example of the correction process in action……..

Now I wonder how many picture framing educators make a few wild/erroneous/ill founded claims in class rooms/closed environments to a audience who may not be to well imitated in the world of framing or the subject on hand and then these claims will go unchallenged……because of the environment that they have been presented in…
 
Originally posted by FrameMakers:
</font><blockquote>quote:</font><hr /> 7. Mounting Press-Almost everything in a frame should be mounted, otherwise the art may buckle and/or eventually come in contact with the glass.
</font>[/QUOTE]Not trying to be Devils Advocate but, all the Big Box framers mount everything don't they? When they get to 51% of the market share then it would be "industry standard". I do know that the Big "M" dry mounts cross stitch. I have taken several apart and was amazed! Just because we don't think it is the correct way doesn't mean that is not the way it is being done.

Now that people are not buying L/E prints and are switching to posters I find myself press mounting more and more.
 
If there's one thing I've learned about The Grumble is that you guys don't as much react as over react. I think you read faaaarrr to much into stuff, whether it's in DECOR or in other industry trades. Even a technical article written by someone in the industry is just their opinion about how things should be done. IT DOESN'T MEAN THAT IT IS THE ONLY WAY. It sometimes doesn't even mean it's the preferred way of doing things.

Warren, really, the people who write most of the articles in DECOR, particularly the technical ones, are industry experts. Now, you can debate what it takes to be an "expert" in this industry, but they are people who, unlike me, have actually framed things for a living. So, contrary to your posts, they do actually know something about what they're writing. (And, might I point out, that almost all of DECOR's e-tips are taken from past articles). That's why you'll never see my name or one of the editor's names on technical articles. P.S. In re-reading the article this was taken from, it was a chop saw that was referred to. This meaning was lost in the shorter version.

So, disagree, debate, agree, correct, whatever. There's a lot of information out there--some good, some bad, some useful, some not so useful. You're going to see it all. It's up to each of you to decide what to keep and what to throw out.

John
 
As Len Aaron said, " It's all bulshit."
That applies to it all, magazines, movies, the news, and even The Grumble. John is correct, only you can decide what's important to you. Then again, bull or not, it's what we do, interact with each other.

John
 
Well, John, that any expert thinks that the straight edge found in mat cutters allows one to cut any kind of mat, "square, oval, circular, or multi-angled" I find simply stunning.

I don't know what to think of the quality of editing that allows a chop saw to be refered to as a chopper in # 1 and then refers to a chop saw as a chopper in # 4. A fillet chopper is, indeed, similar to a chopper but not a chop saw.

And while I can't say absolutely that underpinners don't shoot brads, I've never seen or read about one. One has to wonder what the purpose of putting a brad into the bottom of two legs of a frame would be. I'm sure there are shops that still join frames with brads manually hammered into the sides of moulding but not many which makes a handheld drill (was this expert possibly refering to a hand cranked drill?)hardly "essential"; I don't think we've used one in either of our shops in years. We do use battery powered and pnumatic drills occasionally to pre drill for screw eyes, though. Point drivers are pretty rare in the shops I've visited since they've mostly been replaced with staple guns and tab guns (we usse both). I've yet to find the framer who laments the loss of glasier's points.
 
Warren- In addition to the newer tools, we still have two Fletcher #5 point drivers. I find there are many situations in which the ability to bend the sharp ends of diamond points into position and have them stay there is quite helpful in holding the framed package in place.
(Of course, I still listen to my well-cared-for collection of vinyl record albums too.)
One of my favorite newer methods is Fletcher's Multipoints, which allow the use of a screw through the hole in the tab. They have many uses.
:cool: Rick
 
Warren I am ammazed .Unless I totaly misunderstood your replies to John Taft ,you just duplicated exactly what you found wrong with the perviously mentioned comments in DECOR.

By this I mean you have assumed that since YOU and YOUR shop doesn't use some tools or techniques the mentioning of them must be being done by some illinformed framing wannabe.

I run my shop on a terribly tight budget and because of that I often still use some of the tools you feel or PASSE.
I have an underpinner or two but I frequently do "BACK DRILL" frames and hammer in brads.Especially on deeper mouldings like shadow box profiles.
I still use Point drivers (both the Glazing point ,and the master point by Fletcher). As a matter of fact in an post or reply I made a while back I suggested that a good use for pnuematic staplers was to secure backing boards in finishing and I was assured that hardly anyone used "STAPLES" to accomplish this task.

However the most disturbing concept I thought of is the fact that I still use Dexter( and many other brads includeing as Brian Wolf ,an Exacto knife.) hand cutters to carve cameo images in mats but I do have and use a Wizard in my shop. I haven't perfected the use of CAD as yet. However I can cut a lot of decrotive openings much smaller than the defaults are set on the Wizard and some of my cuts have curls that are too tight for the CMC to accomplish.(and unfortuneately I can some times do it faster without worrying about setup on making a one time cut.) But most of all If I had never perfected the use of these archeic tools I would be at a serious loss without the automation or when one of these other tools brakes down.
When I took the CPF exam ( way bak in 88.LOL) they asked questions about equipment I didn't own and felt assured I'd never want ,but they felt a true CERTIFIED Framer should know how to use "JUST IN CASE"LOL
The error that some of thses artiles makes is to assume that the readers (while they are up to date) know the vague and dated terminology becuse they have been exposed to ALL of them even "WAY BACK WHEN" or in someone else's shop.

When I read things I don't understand ,I ask for a clarification, since I am afraid to admitt I am not as informed as the rest of the industry and may cause others to realize how much information I lack,but then I guess I just proved that to you and others like you.LOL
BUDDY
 
Buddy, I did make a mistake but not the ones you suggested. There's a world of difference between what's "essential" and what's in limited use or what's occasionally useful..

My mistake is in the last part of the first sentence in the second paragraph; it should have read something like "and then refers to a chopper as a chop saw". Poor editing on my part but I was in a hurry.

Finally, I didn't argue that no one used the tools mentioned but that they were hardly "essential".

I'm impressed at the efforts to defend what I think is indefenseable. I repeat my initial assertion: the person who wrote those "Tips" didn't know beans about picture framing or the essential tools of the picture framer.
 
OK guys calm down

At least the subject/topic is been debated….....all be it rather robustly ……..we can all learn from this regardless of what stand point you may have ………..which is not such a bad thing……

Be nice
 
I agree Ron, "Spork" is a good word. Did you know that the symbol "#" is called an octothorpe?
 
I thought # was the pound sign.

I suppose the voice mail message, "Key in your password followed by the octothorpe" would be a setback for the telecommunications industry.
 
Hi John-I like Warren and think he has a lot to add to our expanded knowledge. I think you ought to get him to write a few articles for you.

He is quite knowledgeable about Print on Demand tecnology and his shop equipment appears to be second to none.

I think he is just the type of expert he is asking for.

Perhaps his sharing his knowledge would be a great benefit to all of us
 
Warren as a clarification what I was trying to say is you didn't agree with all the terms used in the article in Decor so you found the article useless and the author uniformed.

The comparison I was trying to make is when you said :
>>>>I didn't argue that no one used the tools mentioned but that they were hardly "essential". <<<

You may have been commiting the same error by only considering those terms or practices you use or are familar with desrveing of being used in the article.Just as the author only used the terms he used or was familar with assumeing that others didn't need to be mentioned.

The litany of seldom used tools and practices I and others gave aren't ment to proove their necessity or even their preference ,but that different people use different tools and terms for them ,and it might be better if we ALL considered all the possibilities .

However I haven't read the article but things like ;

>>>that the straight edge found in mat cutters allows one to cut any kind of mat, "square, oval, circular, or multi-angled" I find simply stunning. <<<
might have been easier to understand if the straight edge was called a "Guide bar"? a term which I have used for two straigt edged ones on my C&H Circle cutter.But I agree the statement is hard to understand. But as I said I am reluctant to assume that only the terminology I use is understood by all or is even correct, but I hope I am understood in spite of my misspelling ,pronounceing or mis-nameing.

But I do agree that it might be a wise decision to have some other person or persons of framing knowledge proof read articles before they go to print.also I to have never heard of any underpinners that use Brads. But I did know a very good framer that used a Senco brad gun to secure the molding in the same fashion as is done with underpinners .And with AMAZEING accuracy that I couldn't come close to acheving.

Finally if you took my comments as a personal attack I am sorry .I just meant that I have learned that even when I THINK I know the only method or what some else is erroneiously saying I normally find that I have more to learn ,especially from those who learned the trade before the advent of many of the Higher technological tools.

And I appreciate your suggestions to Decor as well as Dermot's mediateing . But i didn't mean to stir up the pot only to give a different point of view to be considered as I was trying to suggest possible alternatives thatmay not have been considered.As I hope John Taft has also.
BUDDY
 
Buddy,

I have collected old wood hand tools for some years now. They are considered to be "antiques" in many circles but I respect the art of woodworking so much that I have made a hobby of reading how the craftsmen of years past did their work to such amazing accuracy and detail that they can't be duplicated with modern methods. And I use many of the old tools that most people have laying around in some dusty attic or have sold at yard sales to get rid of them. I don't use them because they are the only ones I own, I use them to become educated in how they were used and to see if I can master their use for my own projects and my own personal education of how wood was handled before the advent of powered tools.

I decided to build a woodworking bench some years ago using only the antique wood tools at my disposal. I used no bolts, screws, or any other metal fasteners to construct the bench. I used no power equipment to shape, size, or finish the bench. I pegged together all the joints with hickory pegs and hand planed all the wood to required dimensions. That bench has been moved quite a number of times since and it is still as solid as a rock!

My point to you and to Warren, who should appreciate the project that I spent so much time on, is this; we have so many new innovative tools at our disposal that we tend to give lesser importance to those tools that have sustained us in past years as framers. That doesn't necessarily negate their importance in our shops, even though we don't all use them on a daily basis anymore. But, there are instances when an old tool is possibly the ONLY tool that will get the work done in an efficient and proper manner. That may be a judgement call on the framer but those tools still have a place in some of our shops even though they aren't in daily use.

I don't think that any of us will contend that, if you don't have all of the state of the art tools in your shop, you can't be a modern framer and compete in the market. Sometimes, a point driver can make a particular job happen where a pneumatic driver or some whiz bang new fangled piece of equipment can't do the job as neatly.

I still use screw clamps, the ones with the big wooden jaws, occasionally in my shop even though they are not state of the art, powered, nor even owned by most framers. That just happens to be the tool of choice for me that is most comfortable to use for a particular job.

I think that the original challenge that Warren put out was a response to a written set of "tips" that were probably printed out of context and not so much putting down one attitude against another.

Framerguy
 
kaffeetrinker_2.gif
Who sez the end thingies on the # symbol are "thorpes"? Actually, they aren't. (Stay with me here, gentle reader.) The symbol has eight points, hence the "octo". I typed in "thorpe" at M-W site, got feedback on only Jim. Going further, the name octothorpe came from a Bell Lab engineer who had to name the key on the new touch-pads coming out in the communication industry. The octo was easy. It also so happened that he was involved in the effort to get Jim Thorpe's Olympic medals awarded to the athlete, and he just decided to stick the name "thorpe" on the end of "octo" to make it unique.

And that's what silly trivia you can discover from the Merriam-Webster toolbar.

You're welcome.
 
Warren, I'm kind of in that place with Framerguy, I buy 100+ year old tools to use. I also use them when I teach newbies woodworking...

They all want to fire up the screaming 5 horse router table, so I give them my sash plane that was originally designed by Paul Revere, telling them this plane was made in 1864, (show mark), when you can plane me a perfect 4' of sash mould, I'll let you use the router.... I just never tell them the "router" is my early #271 mini hand router plane with a forged body.

The point here is, if you don't understand how the job was done by hand, with a simple to understand tool, then how are you going to UNDERSTAND the CMC or Underpinner?

You and I have MANY years in this job, but what about the new person to whom everything and technique is a new concept.

I once taught a Beginning Woodworking class for women only. I used terms like "the hitting thing", "zubba-zubba thingy", and "little nail thingy". They ALL understood what I was saying because that is what they called it.
Time and education establishes proper terms.

Octothorpes. Hmmm, I like that. But I also liked Jim too.

baer

PS: Warren, feel free to tear apart my article in the Sept. issue. :D
 
By George I think Baer understood my rambling thoughts. ( They ALL understood what I was saying because that is what they called it.
Time and education establishes proper terms.)

What I or anyone else uses and why ( as Tom pointed out)isn't the point. What I was trying to establish is many of us use different tools and even call them by different names .So when someone mis-names a tool or it's parts the important thing is do we as professionals understand what the other guys are trying to say.

But I do agree that more proof reading could make articles easier to understand with out guessing.

You'd think after reading my post both here and on HH you could interpet anything said about framing by anyone. I'll bet school teachers have a lot of practice doing just that.LOL
BUDDY
 
Back
Top