Question returned frame

thehadmatter

CGF, Certified Grumble Framer
Joined
Oct 19, 2007
Posts
199
Loc
Central USA
I need some help. Our shop did a shadowbox a year ago for a woman. She has returned with a broken frame saying it fell off the wall five minutes after they hung it. It is a Larson Juhl, moulding number 620059. Whoever put the hangers on the back used large eyehole screws. These pulled right out of the frame leaving cracks. The customer also did not use our hangers because the bag was still sealed and when asked how the piece was hung she replied "with nails." Are we partially responsible for the failure of the frame for using the eyehole screws? Would you charge her for a frame replacement if she were your customer?
 
So did it hang fine for a year, or did she just hang it (after a year), or did it fall down a year ago after hanging it? In which case, why did she wait so long.

But it seems to me the screw-eyes might have caused the problem (reading your post) so I would replace the frame free of charge.
 
Replace it and suck it up. How can anything be proved, maybe she hung it wrong, maybe the screw eyes where rammed in and cause the frame to split and gave way when hung. Either way replace and move on.
 
If your store installed the screweyes and they pulled out, then yes you should replace the frame at no cost. It sounds like the screweye may have been too large for the width of the moulding and split it, and/or it was placed too close to the rabbet.

I don't think using nails vs. the supplied hooks had anything to do with it.
 
Befdore I answer I need to understand one thing. Do you mean to say they took off the Wall Buddies or D-Rings or whatever you put on, or that you put no hanger and wire on the back of your finished frames?

If you don't put hangers and wires on the backs why not? You would know better than them what hangers are called for, and the problems with using the wrong one.

Your question, as to who's responsible. I would say that they are, but that you could discount the cost of a replacement frame. AND put the hanger hardware on this time!

I have had customers bring back frames with screweyes that I put in that had pulled out or had fallen off the wall. I discount the cost of replacing based on how old the job was. A 2 week old mistake I'll eat but after three years, not so much.
 
This is why I still have several almost-20-year-old, almost-full boxes of almost-all-sizes of screweyes under the design table. Make me an offer I can't refuse and I'll send them to you.

There are lots of good hanging methods for frames, and screweyes-with-wire is the least of them. I suggest using a better hanging system. WallBuddies is my favorite, but you could also use D-rings, Hang-Ups, Magic Markers, pieces of Z-Bar 3" to 6" long, etc.
 
For all larger screw eyes, pre-drill to mitigate cracking. Especially on moulding that is too narrow for many of the fore mentioned hanging hardware.

Lesson is only learned if performed with a smile. After all, they DID bring it back to you. They could have taken their business elsewhere, and you would have never had this opportunity to make a customer for life.

Whether they are telling you the truth or not has nothing to do with anything. If it's a lie, it will be one that they have to live with. Truth is, it's a problem that needs to be fixed.... and you're the right person for the job.
 
This is why I still have several almost-20-year-old, almost-full boxes of almost-all-sizes of screweyes under the design table.

Not to mention the quality of the metal they use today is substandard for its intended use. I don't remember them 20 years ago, breaking apart all the time....
 
Jim you forgot chewing gum...

I would have to say you own this one..
Make sign hang it in your frame shop...."Never put crew eyeys on a shadow box..."
Deduct it on your taxes as education...
 
Yeah, if it truely looks as if the screw eyes failed to hold the piece then I would replace it. No charge. Then predrill holes and use long screws and a more sensible hanger.
 
Don't understand why any shop would use screw eyes for a frame that big or any other framing job. Plenty more reliable hanging systems that could have been used. (IMO, which is probably not worth much) :faintthud:

I have made a lot of repairs (for free) that were not from my mistakes. Customers will remember that. :icon21:
 
Why don't you know who put in the screw eyes? I guess it doesn't really matter but I don't understand about the question of who installed screw eyes. When a frame job leaves my shop the only thing that has to be done is to install the hangers in the wall - screw eyes, D rings, or any other hanger system that is on the frame I do and would never leave my customer to do it. Myself, I would repair or replace the frame. IMHO if the customer put in the screw eyes then it is my fault for not completing the job or if I put in the screw eyes then I didn't do the job right because the screw eyes pulled out and weren't installed correctly or wasn't the correct hanging system for the job.
 
I would have to say that 100% of the repairs I get from wire failure has been from the screw eyes pulling out. Some of these have been mine and they were framed years ago. I havent used those in a while and I, like Jim have boxes full under my counter. Wonder if I could sell them as scrap metal?? I have found them useful for other purposes, but will never use them all in a lifetime.
 
Screw the Screw Eyes ! ;)

Never used em
Never will use em
Hate em !!

As already mentioned, there are MANY better things to use on the back of frames such as gum, ATG tape, ear wax, boogers.. take your pick (pardon the pun)

:)
 
She may be exaggerating about the "5 minutes" detail, but it sounds like an engineering issue with the screw eyes that was coming home to roost eventually. Sadly, I would feel compelled to learn my hard lesson and make good with re-fit and a new frame. Never fun.

If it is actually her nails that failed, you will never get a confession out of her. A shadow box is not an inexpensive purchase, if you make good on this project ,even if she is fibbing a bit ,you will have a customer for life that knows you stand behind your product. If you openhandedly offer to take on the whole expense she may surprise you and offer to go half or so, or pay for the re-fit labor.That is where her conscious may kick in and dull the pain a bit for you.

I should ask if she has flat out requested a free and complete fix-it. Sometimes what a client asks for to make them happy is actually less than what we would have offered.

By the by,I find that Wallbuddies, or strap hangers are superior to screw eyes hands down, for just this reason. The wire in screw eyes can drift to the top of the loop and create an nasty tug that will split a frame post haste. The other benefit to the Wallbuddies is they hold the image flush to the wall. In a shadow box I find it bothersome to have the finished product 'sky' on the wall ( lean forward).

You will sleep better if you take the hit and replace it . In the end, it is all about sleeping well at night.

Nancy
Shadowboxes are a love/hate relationship.

Nancy
 
Thing with screw eyes is, because they protrude a distance from the frame, they tend to act like a lever. Bigger they are, the more leverage applied. I've seen many old frames where the eyes have bent over. Even big chunky ones. Or have partly pulled out and hanging on by a whisker. Even on what seems a small frame, as long as it is hanging there is a constant 24/7/365 force trying to twist the eye out of the wood. Or twist the molding itself if it is a narrow profile.

With D-rings the leverage effect is virtually zero.

Also, people will stack frames back-to-face so that the eyes put a nice ding into the one behind.:(
 
1st/foremost, her story smells like last months cod!!!!!!!!!!!
2ndly, take those eyes in hand, walk to the dumpster, throw them in and never, EVER touch them again!

fell off the wall onto the floor AND the glass didnt break???????????? be careful about that----glass may NOT break but it very well may fracture---quite probably causing it to break later on---take it out and 'handle it roughly' (as in stress it by lifting from theone edge only , etc) and see if it will succumb --- much better to do it now than have them come back in AGAIN 6mos down the road
 
... and, Hey, don't obsess too much about the criticisms that sound a little rough from this group.

Most of us have been there and have had a big Fall Off The Wall lesson.

Mine was on a $500 frame job that fell and narrowly missed a $2000 Waterford crystal bowl. WHEW! The frame was repairable, luckily.

We have plenty of screw eyes too, but we only sell them to the unsuspecting public for 5 cents each. Even still, we will NEVER run out!
 
Don't understand why any shop would use screw eyes for a frame that big or any other framing job. Plenty more reliable hanging systems that could have been used. (IMO, which is probably not worth much) :faintthud:

I have made a lot of repairs (for free) that were not from my mistakes. Customers will remember that. :icon21:


Up to 10 or 15 (ok, maybe more) years ago we had nothing but screw eyes to hang with.
 
... and, Hey, don't obsess too much about the criticisms that sound a little rough from this group. Most of us have been there and have had a big Fall Off The Wall lesson.

That's a good point, Ellen. Commentary about screweyes should not be taken personally. The reason we have boxes under the fitting table is that we've learned the hard way.

My screweye pull-out problem was on a large frame for a compatriot in my former career. He vacationed in Hawaii and brought back this framed print in a frame made of strange wood -- could it have been Koa? I'm not sure, it was so long ago, but it was rather splintery, like cedar. Yes, it sure did splinter under side-force from the screweyes, and the wire fell off. I blubbered apologies and fixed it free, but I never saw that customer again. Lesson learned.

Thing with screw eyes is, because they protrude a distance from the frame, they tend to act like a lever....
With D-rings the leverage effect is virtually zero....

Absolutely right, prospero. Framers, if this concept of natural physics seems hard to understand, try this little experiment:

1. Drill holes as you would for hanging hardware in a scrap stick of thin-profile moulding. Drill two, about 6" apart.

2. Stick a 1-1/2" brad in one hole, and push toward the inside, simulating the side-force imposed by a wire under tension, pulling on a screweye. You probably can't splinter the wood this way.

3. Next, stick a 6" nail, awl, or screwdriver in the other hole, and repeat the motion. You can easily splinter the wood using the longer tool. That's the lever effect prospero described.

In our shop, when we need to use wire we use Infinity hangers, the small figure-eight-shaped (like the infinity sign) steel devices, with whatever length of #4 or #6 screw is appropriate for the wood/poly moulding. We always drill full-depth holes first. Infinity hangers, like D-rings, place the pulling force of the wire as close as possible to the surface of the wood, minimizing the lever effect prospero described.

...Also, people will stack frames back-to-face so that the eyes put a nice ding into the one behind.:(

Actually, this caution applies to all kinds of hanging hardware. Our "Thank You" brochure includes the "Keep frames face-to-face or back-to-back" admonishment. After we show customers the frames they came to pickup, we properly stack them and then use 6" wide stretch-wrap to quickly lash them together for easier handling by customers. In the time it takes to explain why we do that, it's done, and then we carry them to ther car...just one more reason to buy here instead of there.
 
Fatigued Screw Eyes

One thing that wasn't mentioned is that if you don't pre-drill with screw eyes, you run the risk of stressing the metal to the point where the head will twist off. Do you want the head to twist off while you're screwing it in, or do you want it to fail when it's hanging over that Waterford crystal?

These things should never have been invented.

Ted H
 
Using any hanging hardware without pre-drilling would not only be unwise, it would be incorrect application and sloppy workmanship. Any screw might be weakened or twisted off, if forcefully driven without pre-drilling. True enough, it would be easy to twist off a screweye by the leverage of turning it with a long tool.

That said, screweyes pose the hazard of failure even when they are properly installed in pre-drilled holes. It's the lever effect prospero described above.
 
One use for screw-eyes.....

Sometimes I do frames with bevel liner where the glass goes between outer frame and liner. Unless the outer frame is very deep, the liner sticks out at the back. Building up the outer frame to take the full depth of the liner/glass is not always practical. If you pencil a line around the liner and fix a few small screw-eyes along it, you can fix it to the outer frame with small screws though the screw-eyes.

**I know there are framers points that do the same, but I ain't got none.:( Nor the gun to fire them niether.:(
 
The problem isn't all screw-eyes, it's also mouldings that are simply TOO SKINNY for d-rings, and TOO SKINNY for a conventional screw to fit between the outside edge and the inside edge. I've done a pretty good job so far at yanking these samples off my wall and throwing them in the trash. I just don't want to bother with them!
 
I think that's why Nielsen came up with their "Gilded" line, traditional looks and finishes in a narrow profile with very strong corners and hanging capability. They are very nice.
:cool: Rick
 
Like Jim, I have boxes of screw eyes that I will never use again.

We use either D-Rings, or two hole, flat wall plates.
For large pieces, we use two and three hole mirror straps, and don't use wire, and just tell the customer to hang the piece by the straps on each side.

Over the years we have repaired many Framica frames where screw eyes were used, and I cringe every time a customer brings one back in, where the screw eyes have pulled out.
 
One thing that wasn't mentioned is that if you don't pre-drill with screw eyes, you run the risk of stressing the metal to the point where the head will twist off. Do you want the head to twist off while you're screwing it in, or do you want it to fail when it's hanging over that Waterford crystal?

These things should never have been invented.

Ted H
They`re good for making hanging rings on ornaments.....That`s about it though! (well that,or stacking/canvas fitting...Sorry Prospero!) L.
 
Back
Top