removing v-nails from joints

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rdbarker

Grumbler in Training
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Apr 30, 2012
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Can anybody tell me if there is a way to remove v-nails from a joint and not destroy the moulding? I am a newbie and on my 50+ frame managed to join the two short sides. This moulding is no longer available to acquire a new piece.
 
Removing v-nail from joint

If the glue is still wet, put something under one of the legs (ie, a pliers) to elevate a bit over your work table...bang a bit straight down on the other leg trying not to screw up the mitre....once apart, grab a wire cutter and pull the v-nails straight down and out of the wood, trying not to mess up the corner. Hope this makes sense.

if glue is good and dry, you might try cutting through the mitre with a small woodworking saw like this: http://www.woodcraft.com/Product/2000843/1301/Crown-187W-Gent-Back-Saw-8.aspx

will cut through metal and wood. dig out the vnails really good and you'll have to trim down a tiny bit to fix up the mitre....be sure to get all the pieces of the vnail or you might wreck your saw blades.
 
Dunno if I can explain this in mere words, but the best trick I ever learned for removing vnails from a frame that you have separated.

Hang the vnailed end of the stick over the edge of a table, with the other end resting on the table. Grasp the vnail with pliers. Lift the vnailed end up about 6 inches and smack down the vnailed end (still being held by the pliers) smartly. Nine times out of ten the vnail will pull out the first time. You may have to 'repeat' to finish the job.

Is that even a little bit clear?
 
When I get caught that way I first make sure the glue line is properly broken, ie by bumping the corner of the frame and listening for the "snick". After that I work the joint open and closed and twist it both ways to try and loosen the v-nail and make sure the glue has lost all its grip. I then put a slip of timber under one leg to raise it and put my weight on it then thump down hard on the other end.

The joint should shear apart but, sometimes, if the universe has it in for me the v-nail will burst through the top of the unsupported leg. If I have to avoid this at all costs, ie no more moulding, I twist the joint several times until one v-nail sits proud enough to grip it with my pincers. Failing this I keep twisting and manipulating the joint so I can see into the top and then use the support and tap treatment very slowly, checking after every tap to make sure the v-nails are sliding the right way.

Either way it is a royal pain and no matter how carefully you go about it the chances of disaster are exactly proportional to the urgency of the job and the cost of the moulding. If it is a $50 a metre chop best to hope there is a God you have lived a pure enough life for Him to smile upon you.
 
I try to use a little finesse and patience when trying to get out a vnail. Resting the corner on a table and pushing down on the leg that is free would, in my mind, push the vnail through the face of the moulding being forced downward, as the vnail half on the table has no where to go, it's movement being limited by the table.

I hold them in the air in front of me and wiggle the corner ever so gently to try to get a little slack in the corner then push the two legs in opposite directions. I watch the vnail to be sure that I am not pushing on the wrong side and ending up pushing the vnail through the face of the moulding. Sometimes the vnail breaks then you can try to pry it out with needle nose pliers. I have also had to resort to chipping out the vnail with a blade and then twisting it out with the pliers.

It seems the vnail breaks when you can't get a replacement moulding, or when you can't chop it down, as when trying to frame on oil. So good luck, and remember if it feels like it isn't working, don't force it....
 
Why not just use your moulding stretcher?
 
"breaking" a corner is a win some, lose some, situation.

Drill pairs of holes right against the vee nail (back of moulding) just big enough and deep enough that you can get a grip on the vee nail with needle nose pliers.

Probably 1/8th inch drill, 1/8th inch deep - deepen these as needed for tall vee nails to as much as 1/2"

4 to 8 holes so you can grip and pull at various spots along the vee nail.

Lay frame on table with corner overhanging

Grip vee nail from below, lift corner and inch or so and pull down with the pliers banging the frame against the table

Work back and forth from one side of the vee nail to the other pulling it out a bit at a time until removed

With luck you'll do little enough damage to the frame that you can rejoin it with only a little sanding or a skim cut in the saw.

I have an old pair of wire cutters I ground the cutting edges off that can really grip vee nails for any removal
 
Bandsaw said:
I have an old pair of wire cutters I ground the cutting edges off that can really grip vee nails for any removal
Click to expand...

This is a great idea :) I have way too many dulled wire cutters....

Being able to do this does weaken the corners. be sure when you put in the new vnails that they do not go in the same spot the ones you pulled came out of. Ideally you would trim 1/4" at the minimum off each end to get some fresh wood for the next vnails to bite in to. Which means trimming a 1/4 off all around on your mats.
 
Thank you one and all!! You and the gods were with me today - and I have had one more learning experience on the way....Kind of put all your ideas together and did this...put the corner face side down on my padded table with the miter parallel to the edge of the table and maybe half an inch over. Took a scrap of moulding, laid it on the leg that was off the table, parallel to the miter. Held the end of that hanging leg to support it - then whacked the scrap piece with a hammer. It moved!!! Several taps later and it was apart. No damage to either end. The v-nails were then easy to grip and wiggle out. Thank you thank you thank you!
 
Guess I'm a little late to the game here. I was trying to find my previous posted description of this on Search, but couldn't.
Anyway, here is my method for disassembling v-nailed frames.

corner1.JPG

Rest frame on a corner and apply pressure until joint pops. Repeat for each corner.
Then wiggle each corner to begin loosening the v-nails.

corner2.JPG

Support one side of the miter with a pair of pliers or something of similar height and strength.
Use a rubber mallet to tap the opposite side of the miter until it disengages. Repeat for each corner.

corner3.JPG

Grip the v-nail with a Vise-Grip.

With the moulding supported as before, hit the Vise-Grip with the mallet
to back the v-nail out of the miter. Repeat as needed.
corner4.JPG
 
Great pics all 4 times.
 
Sorry about that. I have no idea how the multiple post happened. I had to go back in to edit the text after inserting the pictures. Must have clicked the wrong button a few times.
:icon19: Rick
 
Less does what Rick does - works 90% - close anyway

Less cracks and wiggles

Less has to get some visegripes
 
If it's any consolation, some of us who have been at it for years still join the wrong bits. (:o).

Sometimes you can slide them out, but I usually end up with a chunk missing from my thumb. So grab the L face-up and twist so you are levering on the back side of the joint. Tear the sucker apart and pull the nails out with pliers, being careful not to damage the top side. Trim any sticking-up lumps of wood on the face and do it again (with the right rail). But shift the nail position so you are grabbing into fresh wood.
 
Long on the right for me too, but that's because my underpinner is sunk in to a corner of my workbench that means when it comes to joining the two 'L's - the long sides run along the longest side of the bench. If it was sunk in to a non-diagonally-opposite corner, I'd have the short sides on the right.
 
RoboFramer said:
Long on the right for me too, but that's because my underpinner is sunk in to a corner of my workbench that means when it comes to joining the two 'L's - the long sides run along the longest side of the bench. If it was sunk in to a non-diagonally-opposite corner, I'd have the short sides on the right.
Click to expand...

Ah yes but I'm working from the front of the pinner so if I was in the Robo workshop the long would be on the left relative to my normal practice.

Not confusing the issue am I? :smiley:
 
When I have had to break a corner and pull v-nails out, i've always gone back with a bit of plastic wood and pushed it into the slits from the back side, let dry and then tried to get the next set of v-nails offset from the first. Nobody has mentioned filling the slits (sometimes more like chasams!). Is this unnecessary labor?
My v-nailer is manual and sometimes really hard wood creates a problem for me.
Mostly, after 38 years, it is my friend.:icon11:
 
Pat, I wager you drive with your left hand. :) I do. Left on the wheel and right on teh coffee cup, the radio knob, the cell phone. But never drive distracted :)

Do you think it's true about the plow heads scoop being reversed? that really would be wrong.
 
Bob Doyle said:
Pat, I wager you drive with your left hand. :) I do. Left on the wheel and right on teh coffee cup, the radio knob, the cell phone. But never drive distracted :)

Do you think it's true about the plow heads scoop being reversed? that really would be wrong.
Click to expand...

Ten-Two, Bob, I really do hope that I convinced you to look up the "plows". :p

(Their airplane engines really do turn the wrong way. Makes it easy to tell Rolls-Royce from GE or Pratt & Whitney.)
 
Sorry, didn't look it up :)

But I am debating whether to take your word on the rotational direction of their turbines. I got friends that work at Pratt and Whitney. The one in town is planning on hiring 400 more employees. Good news bad news, as it means that they probably got the go ahead to build that spare engine for every fighter the military didn't want. (the engine not the fighter :))

So more people employed to build more government waste.... Not sure if I should apply or picket.... :shrug:
 
When I cut, I always cut the long side first and and then place the cuts on the table by the joiner which is right behind the saw - My saw/joiner/table triangle is within a 6 foot radius. The short side get cut next and placed next to the longs (and reversed after coloring the edges).

So the longs are naturally on the left after cutting so it makes it natural to grab a long side, turn around and put it on the left side of the joiner. The reversed short side naturally goes on the right.

Works for me.
 
rdbarker said:
Can anybody tell me if there is a way to remove v-nails from a joint and not destroy the moulding? I am a newbie and on my 50+ frame managed to join the two short sides. This moulding is no longer available to acquire a new piece.
Click to expand...

You will need to break the joint. Turn the frame face down on a padded surface. Place a piece of foamcore under one side of the moulding and strike the other with a hammer close to the joint. This is usually pretty easy on a freshly glued joint. Gradually increase the force of the blow until you see movement. Check the face now and then to be sure you aren't causing damage. Eventually the pieces will come apart. Then it's just a matter of grabbing the end of the v-nail with a needlenose pliers and tapping the moulding with the hammer (from the backside!) until each nail comes out. Clean off the old glue and away you go.
 
It makes me feel so good that there are so many 'well used' techniques out there. I also use the left long placing before joining, but as was pointed out, Murphy enjoys visiting when the moulding is expensive, discontinued of there's a time crunch.

It's good to know even the 'Framing Gods' make mistakes.;)

Cheers

Michele
 
Pat Murphey said:
I see the Englishmen do their farming on the wrong side, as well as their driving. :p:p
Click to expand...
Take little notice of what the Pom framers do, Pat! They can't help it! Some of their ancestors banished some of my ancestors to Australia and stayed in England themselves! That's like punishing a chocaholic by giving them 10 boxes of Lindt! LOL!

Anyone who doesn't have long on the left, or who joins from the front of the vee nailer must be retarded! LOL! .....no....it's true, I tell you! ;o) ;o)
 
I wouldn't bother to do it for aesthetic reasons, but sometimes I put glue in them for extra strength.
:cool: Rick
 
Hey Ormond. If I had to stand behind my pinner I would have to be the Incredible Rubber Man to reach the pedal. :p

I always paint the ends of the long rails red so I know the difference. Ha! Not so silly as I might not think I am. :thumbsup:

Anyway, right about now I could just nibble a bit of choccy shaped like a rabbit.

Lindt_Goldhase1.jpg
 
I join from the back but in a counter clockwise circle. The first long is on the right then a short on the left, turn CCW and long left, turn CCW and short left, turn CCW and join the 4th corner. I lay them out in order as I cut since my joining table is right behind me while I'm cutting on the saw.
 
If the moulding is important and I need to reuse it without cutting I really like to get the vee nails out before I break the joint. Then I don't have to hammer it possibly damaging the front and the slots left by the vee nail are small.

If I'm going to cut anyway I use a little miter box with a Japanese saw to cut right beside the vee nails losing just a little more than 1/4 inch at each end of each stick.

So often when a joint is broken with force the moulding will split if the vee nails are still in.
 
Libbylady said:
I'm still wondering if filling the slits is overkill......see post above. Thanks.
Click to expand...

I usually don't refill the slits in the back, unless the back of the frame will be exposed for whatever reason. I figure the dustcover will conceal my indiscretions ;)
 
This post came in handy this morning!

I used the 1/8 inch drill on each side of the V-nail approach and then extracted the V-nails with needle nose pliers. The V-nails came out quite nicely and fairly easily! Of course the frame was a fairly soft wood... it might have been another story with a real hard wood... just guessing.
I was needing to shorten parallel sides, so I drilled on the sides that were going to be shortened... therefore the drilled holes were soon eliminated!
This idea saved my rear, particularly since it was a large (32 X 48) and fairly pricey frame... and the completion/delivery date is Monday!

The only bit of a problem was that I had to saw the two legs upside down and this cause a little chipping on the face of the frame. Fortunately it is a dark and somewhat distressed style frame, and a little matching color nail filler did a pretty nice job of fixing that problem!

Thank you wise and experienced ones!

Z
 
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