Is there a glazing option where the glass is etched on both sides? The conservaton reflection control from TruVue is etched on one side only. I am working with a PITA right now who insists that is what his previous framer (not local) used. To me, it just looks like really cheap, grainy, non-glare glass. If it is out there, who provides it? I need a really good answer for this PITA!
Reflection Control Glazing
- Thread starter Sister
- Start date
Jerry Ervin
PFG, Picture Framing God
That is the way they did it in the old days. Then it was called non-glare. It was sand blasted instead of the acid etched process they use now.
I really don't think that any of the companies use the sand blast technique anymore.
What I don't understand is why would anyone really want that stuff. Some of it was terrible.
I really don't think that any of the companies use the sand blast technique anymore.
What I don't understand is why would anyone really want that stuff. Some of it was terrible.
realhotglass
MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Sister,
Guardian still make a double sided non glare, we keep it here in Australia. (Mainly because of the oversizes for larger jobs.)
It is much better than the old Matobel type non glares . . . I know it isn't sandblasted, no NG's ever where, it isn't feasible.
Most would have been machine etched, or with the finer finishes chemically etched.
Guardian also do a SSNG, but not as fine as TV's, and Guardian also do the UV on the SSNG.
I have framer clients that have shown their customers both TV SSNG and Guardian SSNG nad DSNG, and some clients do prefer the DS etch, it looks more like a true non glare.
Non glares are definitely far less popular here that plain clear glass, and I can see that in coming years, other specialty coated glasses will take a fair part of the market too. (Reflection free, Museum type glasses.)
Guardian still make a double sided non glare, we keep it here in Australia. (Mainly because of the oversizes for larger jobs.)
It is much better than the old Matobel type non glares . . . I know it isn't sandblasted, no NG's ever where, it isn't feasible.
Most would have been machine etched, or with the finer finishes chemically etched.
Guardian also do a SSNG, but not as fine as TV's, and Guardian also do the UV on the SSNG.
I have framer clients that have shown their customers both TV SSNG and Guardian SSNG nad DSNG, and some clients do prefer the DS etch, it looks more like a true non glare.
Non glares are definitely far less popular here that plain clear glass, and I can see that in coming years, other specialty coated glasses will take a fair part of the market too. (Reflection free, Museum type glasses.)
Thanks guys! In our last conversation PITA is still insistant, so I suggested he contact his previous framer to ask the specific glass used. It will be interesting to hear the response. I had heard or read that double etching was an earlier method used, but his response was, "it hasn't changed in the last five years, now has it!" See what I am up against. Stay tuned, I will be posting a picture of a moulding he wants to duplicate! Again, I will need you to be there for support! (moral if nothing else).
Framerguy
PFG, Picture Framing God
Sue,
Once in awhile you will have a RPIA come in like this guy and you just have to either put up with his arrogance or tell him to go back and get his framing done by his old framer! BTW, why isn't his old framer doing his framing anymore?? Recent move out of the area or did they get sick of the guy's attitude?
If you don't find anything else, tell him that you have located a special outlet for double sided nonglare and I'll sandblast the glass for you for, say, $200 per 32/40 sheet wholesale and he has to buy a case minimum! THAT should put the stop to all that nonsense!
Framerguy
Once in awhile you will have a RPIA come in like this guy and you just have to either put up with his arrogance or tell him to go back and get his framing done by his old framer! BTW, why isn't his old framer doing his framing anymore?? Recent move out of the area or did they get sick of the guy's attitude?
If you don't find anything else, tell him that you have located a special outlet for double sided nonglare and I'll sandblast the glass for you for, say, $200 per 32/40 sheet wholesale and he has to buy a case minimum! THAT should put the stop to all that nonsense!
Framerguy
Tru Vue's switch to single-sided reflection control was definitely more than five years ago, so I guess your PITA is right in that respect.
I still see some of the old stuff - maybe even worse - come in with some ready-made frames. It's like the stuff they sometimes put in bathroom windows or shower doors. It lets some light through, but not much else.
What's this guy having framed? A photo of his mother-in-law?
I still see some of the old stuff - maybe even worse - come in with some ready-made frames. It's like the stuff they sometimes put in bathroom windows or shower doors. It lets some light through, but not much else.
What's this guy having framed? A photo of his mother-in-law?
Janet L
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Sister,
We all get people like him at times. I would tell him what types of glass you stock. He can pick from that selection. Sounds as though his old framer "fired him" or he may have moved away as Tom suggested. Whatever the case may be, he's probably gonna have trouble finding the same crappy glass from another local framer in your area.
Janet
Inside every older person is a younger person wondering what the h*ll happened.
We all get people like him at times. I would tell him what types of glass you stock. He can pick from that selection. Sounds as though his old framer "fired him" or he may have moved away as Tom suggested. Whatever the case may be, he's probably gonna have trouble finding the same crappy glass from another local framer in your area.
Janet
Inside every older person is a younger person wondering what the h*ll happened.
j Paul
PFG, Picture Framing God
Even if you can find it, do you want to order in a case of what nobody else wants and probably pay freight on top of that, with maybe the promise that he'll use it up on future orders?
As I recall, Sandel's non-glare glass was etched on both sides. Sandel has been out of business for several years.
Janet has a splendid idea. Tell him your selection is limited to higher-quality glazing choices, and invite him to make his selection from what you offer. For what it would cost him for you to ship in a carton of special-order glass -- if it could be found -- he could easily buy Museum Glass.
Have you showed him Museum Glass or its cheaper, non-UV-filtering cousin, AR?
As an alternative, if he is unsatisfied with the selction offered, I would suggest that if he can locate and bring in a piece of glass he likes, I could use it. But since I will not accept responsibility for cutting customers' materials, he would have to bring it in cut-to-size.
Janet has a splendid idea. Tell him your selection is limited to higher-quality glazing choices, and invite him to make his selection from what you offer. For what it would cost him for you to ship in a carton of special-order glass -- if it could be found -- he could easily buy Museum Glass.
Have you showed him Museum Glass or its cheaper, non-UV-filtering cousin, AR?
As an alternative, if he is unsatisfied with the selction offered, I would suggest that if he can locate and bring in a piece of glass he likes, I could use it. But since I will not accept responsibility for cutting customers' materials, he would have to bring it in cut-to-size.
dougj
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Sister
If he is reallllly insistent tell him you found some, it is slightly thicker and slightly( A BUNCH)more expensive, special order.
Then use 2 pieces of TV AR back to back There double sided.
If he is reallllly insistent tell him you found some, it is slightly thicker and slightly( A BUNCH)more expensive, special order.
Then use 2 pieces of TV AR back to back There double sided.
But Doug, wouldn't that be a lot like lying to him?
Besides, the optically-coated AR doesn't look anything like etched non-glare.
dougj
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Might not be lying, did he specify 1 piece of glass?
Just kinda being a PITA back to him. HEHE
Just kinda being a PITA back to him. HEHE
Val
PFG, Picture Framing God
But be an HONEST pita. A gallery recently decided to turn all their framing over to us, after the "other guy" got caught lying to her about something. A "little one", but enough to make her leave him. Just my 2 cents.
Why not take a piece of clear glass to a sandblaster? He wants sandblasted glass? Give him sandblasted glass! Maybe he WANTS that fuzzy feeling?
Why not take a piece of clear glass to a sandblaster? He wants sandblasted glass? Give him sandblasted glass! Maybe he WANTS that fuzzy feeling?
I will clarify a few comments. First, he requested my coming to him--he did not come to me($$$$$). Second, he is a physician who moved in from another state (not sure where). Third, I wanted to assure myself that I was knowledgeable of all the glazing choices. Last, but not least, he will have to accept Conservation RC since he insists on etched non-glare (not AR or museum).
Thanks, Framerguy, I will add RPIA to my LifeSaver Special charges inaddition to PITA.
I have done work for him and his wife previously, but since his wife left him, he qualifies for RPIA pricing.
dougj
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
I WAS JUST KIDDING!!
I would not lie to a customer or try to pull anything over on them. If I can't give them what they want or insist on I will honestly tell them so. I would rather loose 1 job than 1 customer.
We have many many return customers and many new customers returning.
We have and will continue to work very hard to gain a good reputation and it seems to be working, A lot of word of mouth customers.
I would not lie to a customer or try to pull anything over on them. If I can't give them what they want or insist on I will honestly tell them so. I would rather loose 1 job than 1 customer.
We have many many return customers and many new customers returning.
We have and will continue to work very hard to gain a good reputation and it seems to be working, A lot of word of mouth customers.
framermike
True Grumbler
Last time I needed some of that special blasted-on-both-sides glass I was able to get some from one of the local glass shops. It still is used sometimes for bathroom windows.
Mike
Mike
realhotglass
MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Just want to clarify . . .
Non glare is not sandblasted . . .
Sandblasted (even finely) simply won't work.
We have been playing with making NG for really larger sizes,
and let me tell you, finely sandblasting one side is reasonably
ok to do evenly, but then you have to POLISH the **** out of it
so it is like a wet look sandblast, and this takes hours, just to do
a small piece, so it definitely isn’t feasible.
(The bathroom glass would have to be at least 1/8" thickness,
so not a picture framing glass . . .)
Call your Guardian distributor . . . I buy it from them,
they send it to Aus, I sell it (when I have to*) to framers, they use it.
It is double sided non glare, but not as fine as TV SSNG etching.
* The only reason I bring it in is that it is available
in 60" x 36" and is very handy for oversize length framing jobs.
It is a reasonable looking NG, and is generally ok to use for one or 2 mats off the artwork.
Otherwise, we sell a beaut Chinese SSNG that is as fine as TV, and quite a lot less expensive.
Non glare is not sandblasted . . .
Sandblasted (even finely) simply won't work.
We have been playing with making NG for really larger sizes,
and let me tell you, finely sandblasting one side is reasonably
ok to do evenly, but then you have to POLISH the **** out of it
so it is like a wet look sandblast, and this takes hours, just to do
a small piece, so it definitely isn’t feasible.
(The bathroom glass would have to be at least 1/8" thickness,
so not a picture framing glass . . .)
Call your Guardian distributor . . . I buy it from them,
they send it to Aus, I sell it (when I have to*) to framers, they use it.
It is double sided non glare, but not as fine as TV SSNG etching.
* The only reason I bring it in is that it is available
in 60" x 36" and is very handy for oversize length framing jobs.
It is a reasonable looking NG, and is generally ok to use for one or 2 mats off the artwork.
Otherwise, we sell a beaut Chinese SSNG that is as fine as TV, and quite a lot less expensive.
If price is not an issue, why would anyone prefer etched glass over optically coated glass? You did ask him why, didn't you?
Bob Doyle
SPFG, Supreme Picture Framing God
Get the name of the previous framer and call yourself. Not only will you find out the glass that was used (most likely it WAS regular single sided NG, just installed correctly!) but you may also find out other issues this pita can pose, ie long delays for picking up, picking corners apart, wheedling discounts because you cna't get what he wants, like oh say, double sided etched glass (try HomeDepot or a local glass shop for thin bathroom glass)
If you have troubles now try to find out what you need to worry about in the future with this character!
If you have troubles now try to find out what you need to worry about in the future with this character!
Val
PFG, Picture Framing God
Repeat after me: "I'm sorry sir, we simply do not carry that. Here's what is available....What would your next choice be?"
Framing Goddess
SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Goodness, maybe this guy just wants the new pieces to look like the older pieces.
Maybe he will need to replace the glass in the older pieces to get a more uniform look. And since "today's non-glare" is better lookin' you could sell this replacement as an "upgrade" rather than as a replacement...
I know of the ultra grainy two sided non glare glass and I have only seen it in dirt cheap ready made frames from many years ago. I never knew it to be available to custom framers.
The two-etched sides non glare was the only NG glass available way back in the olden days when I started framing, but I have found it to look "close enough" to "today's non glare."
Good luck with your pita, sister. Hopefully you'll win him over.
edie the killhimwithkindness goddess
Maybe he will need to replace the glass in the older pieces to get a more uniform look. And since "today's non-glare" is better lookin' you could sell this replacement as an "upgrade" rather than as a replacement...
I know of the ultra grainy two sided non glare glass and I have only seen it in dirt cheap ready made frames from many years ago. I never knew it to be available to custom framers.
The two-etched sides non glare was the only NG glass available way back in the olden days when I started framing, but I have found it to look "close enough" to "today's non glare."
Good luck with your pita, sister. Hopefully you'll win him over.
edie the killhimwithkindness goddess
Sister - It's got to be the heat....
Jerry Ervin
PFG, Picture Framing God
Hey Val, I think you are on to something. Have you had professional training? That is an absolutely great sales technique. That sounds just like something Zig Ziglar would teach in his "Closing the Sale" classes.
Val
PFG, Picture Framing God
It's taken years of pita's to get there and I'm finally learning. Professional training? Yeah, my pita customers trained me!! Had one yesterday who wanted
"only paper mats, not that expensive stuff. Nobody carries that cheap stuff. I just want the cheap stuff. Gonna cut it myself. Waddoo I use, a razor blade?"
"(pretending I didn't hear that last part)I can order it and have it here by Thursday."
"But I came all the way down from the Lake (26 miles away)! I need it now!"
"I don't have it now, just some old scraps."
"Scraps? Paper mats? Lemme see....ooh. Small scraps. I need full sheets, that really bright green stuff, not THAT green,...and yellow too."
"I can have them here by Thursday"
"But I need it now!"
"I have the archival now. Will that be your choice... now?"
"Can't you just sell me that ar- what'd you call it? Ark- expensive stuff at the cheap stuff price? I just want the cheap stuff, now"
"No. I can't. (pause for a deep breath here) I don't have the ch...I mean...paper mat stuff now. This is what I have NOW. What would you like to do?... NOW?"
He left with 6 full sheets of the "expensive stuff".
sigh....
"only paper mats, not that expensive stuff. Nobody carries that cheap stuff. I just want the cheap stuff. Gonna cut it myself. Waddoo I use, a razor blade?"
"(pretending I didn't hear that last part)I can order it and have it here by Thursday."
"But I came all the way down from the Lake (26 miles away)! I need it now!"
"I don't have it now, just some old scraps."
"Scraps? Paper mats? Lemme see....ooh. Small scraps. I need full sheets, that really bright green stuff, not THAT green,...and yellow too."
"I can have them here by Thursday"
"But I need it now!"
"I have the archival now. Will that be your choice... now?"
"Can't you just sell me that ar- what'd you call it? Ark- expensive stuff at the cheap stuff price? I just want the cheap stuff, now"
"No. I can't. (pause for a deep breath here) I don't have the ch...I mean...paper mat stuff now. This is what I have NOW. What would you like to do?... NOW?"
He left with 6 full sheets of the "expensive stuff".
sigh....
I wonder if we are confusing the terms here.
"Non-glare" is the term used to describe etched glass. That is, glass with a microscopically-bumpy surface. It makes the image look fuzzy if there's more than about 1/8" separation from the art. The etching is usually on one side (such as Tru-Vue Reflection Control), but in the past it has been available from others etched on both sides.
Etched, non-glare glass is available with or without a coating to filter UV light. When the coating is used, it is only on one side -- the inside -- because it could be scratched. I have not seen double-etched glass with a UV filter coating; I think the textured, etched surface could be difficult to coat.
"Anti-reflection" is the term used to describe optically coated glass. This is the glass that best reduces reflections and may be almost invisible in proper lighting. The coatings are usually applied to both sides, which is the way Tru-Vue (our industry's largest supplier of anti-reflection glass) does it. If the UV filtering coating is used, it goes on the inside only.
Edie has a great idea. If all of his framed pictures have to match, replace his old etched glass with optically-coated glass. It is much better looking in any case.
Matt Dalbke
Grumbler in Training
FYI
General still makes a 2 sided non-glare
General still makes a 2 sided non-glare
sales rep
Grumbler in Training
General does make a 2 sided product. Sister, Cash Moulding Sales of Alabama carries this product and will bring it to your shop. Just call them and ask for the double sided product
Jim, thank you, finally, for the above statement which was my initial question in this post. AR is out of the question for this guy.
Thanks to the rest of you, also. You need not hold your breath on my posting a picture of the moulding he wanted to match a frame he already has. I punted the thought of even trying--he can locate it himself! So there.
