re-do to charge full price or not??

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DawnStendin

DawnStendin

MGF, Master Grumble Framer
Joined
Sep 13, 2006
Posts
680
Loc
Spokane, WA
About 3 months ago I framed 3 french tapestries for a designer and her client. They both came in...choose the linen matting and beaded fillet and agreed to the price. I framed them, they are beautiful...and they both loved them. Even called a couple times to tell me how happy they were with them.
Now, the designer decided that they didn't work in the room and is moving them to another room...which has a red wall...so she wants some red in the matting:vomit:. (The tapestries are basically pink and green).
This will mean redoing the fillet and mats. How would you charge her?? She brings me anywhere from $500 - $2000 a month in business so I don't want to damage the relationship...but they did approve the design and have loved it for the last 3 months. Your thoughts are greatly appreciated.
 
I would charge just like any other "recycled" frame that is brought in to be updated.

They are not questioning the work..... just wanting to use it for something else.
 
I think since the designer and client loved them for 3 months, then I don't see why you shouldn't charge your regular price for changing the mats & fillets. Why should you have to pay the price for them changing their minds, when they obviously loved the initial design?

On a side note, is there any red at all in the tapestries? I can't believe a good designer would insist on bringing red into the frame design just to match a red wall in the room (especially since the red wall could be repainted a different colour in the future). To me, that just doesn't seem like a good choice.
 
They are the ones who want it redone, give them what ever price you normally would, and don't skimp on your labor. You should not be penalized in any manner what so ever for thier indesicion, does it cost you less to redo them? heck no, tell them business is business. IF the designer picked out the wrong carpeting and wanted it changed do you think it would cost less, if the designer is worried about cost she is the one who should charge less for her services to her client on this occassion.-Randy
 
Twin2 said:
On a side note, is there any red at all in the tapestries? I can't believe a good designer would insist on bringing red into the frame design just to match a red wall in the room (especially since the red wall could be repainted a different colour in the future). To me, that just doesn't seem like a good choice.
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there is not a speck of red in the tapestries at all!!! I suggested we go with a green instead...but she is insistant that she has to bring red in. Even wants me to put a double mat with a fillet...ick!!! Im really surprised at this...usually she has a pretty decent eye. Good point that the wall could change colors too. The drapery place next door told me the client isn't crazy about the red walls either. Maybe I should look at this as on going income :beer:
 
Agree with others, up to a point.

Has the designer asked for a discount on re-doing them? Or are you just feeliing bad about it, and thinking they expect that from you?

If the designer regularly brings in this much work and needs a break this time, I would have a talk with her/him and make sure they understand that this is a one time only thing. You are not responsible for such things in the future, and it actually costs more in labor to break open a package than it does to fit to begin with.

Don't cut off your nose too spite your face, as it were. With that said don't be a patsy either.
 
j Paul said:
Agree with others, up to a point.

Has the designer asked for a discount on re-doing them? Or are you just feeliing bad about it, and thinking they expect that from you?
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It hasn't been discussed yet...but I'm trying to get a backbone before the subject comes up later today.
 
It's one thing if they bring it back within a week, and quite another thing when it's been three months. I would charge full price for mats and fillets and labor and fitting...and throw them a bone by telling them you are waiving your customary charge to disassemble a frame. That's the cost of being fickle.
 
Paul N said:
And don't forget to mention that all prices went up by up to 15% since beginning of year but due to your kindness, you'll charge the same old price....:)
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that's actually a serious consideration. I have a couple of pieces in the back that a customer brought me quite some time ago, and I gave them a quote, and they haven't come in yet to convert the quote to an order. I'm sure that prices have gone up at least once since I gave the original quote. So when they do come in, I'll be taking less profit by honoring the original quote.
 
my quotes specifically limit the quoted amount to 30 days and or subject to change in the event of vendor price increases.

This estimate is good for 30 days from the date it was given. It only applies to materials selected in our pricing program and subject to manufactures price list changes.
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Dawn ...get a grip. There is no reason not to charge for your services. There was nothing wrong with the work you performed for them before. This is not a re-do it is a new service.

The most I would even consider is to not charge an unfit charge.
 
Thanks...full price it is! Then when they repaint the ugly red wall...it's full price again! You guys are great. thanks for the input.
 
I think this is on eof those threads where we all can easily tell someone else what to do, but probably wouldn't do it when our tails were on the line

Once in a blue moon does this come up and more than once we have "accomodated" the client with a "special price". Good clients are hard to come by. I think it is way too cavalier to simply "hold the line"

Why don't you wait for the designer to make a move?

It might be easily handled by following her lead

The last thing I would do is to alienate a good client over this-find some middle ground
 
Besides what Bob says, I think that you are making much of nothing. Don't get all worked up about worst case scenarios. The designer may have backed themselves into an untenable position on the job, and be looking for some help out. If someone were bringing that kind of income to my shop I would be more than willing to work with them to help save their butts.
 
Bob Carter said:
I think this is on eof those threads where we all can easily tell someone else what to do, but probably wouldn't do it when our tails were on the line
Once in a blue moon does this come up and more than once we have "accomodated" the client with a "special price". Good clients are hard to come by. I think it is way too cavalier to simply "hold the line"
Why don't you wait for the designer to make a move?
It might be easily handled by following her lead

The last thing I would do is to alienate a good client over this-find some middle ground
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My first reaction when I read this thread was, that I would give the designer a big discount on the redo to make her happy. Maybe do it for the cost of materials. If she spends $2,000 a month, that would pay for almost half of my months rent. Those kind of steady customers are hard to find, and harder to keep.

I agree with Bob, all of us might tell you to hang tough, and charge her full price. However, if faced with the same situation, I doubt most of us would be so strong.
 
Hey its not like the designer is getting a deal by re-doing the room! She is essentially making the decision! Charge, charge, charge! Does she even know what the breakdown on the order was the first time around?
Chances are she's passing on the cost to her client anyway!:icon21:
 
Provided you are charging a client like that FULL PRICE to begin with, a regular customer (with a history)like that will get a better price to start with, in my shop. In certain senarios I might give them a break, ie; swaping a photo for another, replacing broken glass ect.. but redoing the guts of the frame is not a freebie, just another job. If you have a really good relationship with your client and they asked for a discounted price, more than whatever you might give them (I don't know designer that pays full price for anything) because of thier error, they are taking advantage of your relationship and kindness.

I've been framing for over twenty years now, I used to give people the benefit of the doubt, but I can't count how many times I've heard " If you give me deal, I'll be bringing back all kinds of work" people who say that are just saying to rip you off, once you cut them a break they typically never come back. If you want or they ask for some kind of discount then give them a little something, say 5%, but we are not a charity operation.

Don't even get me started about the types of customers who try and ask for a discount on anything and everything, they know they have nothing to loose by asking, once you give in you might as well give them your wallet.
 
As Randy pointed out, you don't say whether this client, through their designer, is already getting a discounted price.

Just be prepared for any scenario. This may be much ado about nothing.

They might not expect a better price and it may be congruent to say this, but I'd be more inclined to give them a great price if they didn't expect it.

:kaffeetrinker_2:
 
DawnStendin said:
there is not a speck of red in the tapestries at all!!! I suggested we go with a green instead...but she is insistant that she has to bring red in. Even wants me to put a double mat with a fillet...ick!!! Im really surprised at this...usually she has a pretty decent eye.
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Do you have visualization software so you could show her ahead of time how it's going to look with the red mat on a red wall? I know in Integrated Framer you can change the wall color to make a more realistic mockup. If you're really motivated you could get a photo of the red room and cut/paste the frame mockup right into the actual room picture.
 
I would suggest to the designer that in lue of the cost to Unfit, refit, new mats, and fillet..... that a simple red high-lite wiped onto the frame in under 5 minutes might just do the job instead. Dry brushed with acrylic or tempera.. it's also reversible.
 
Baer Charlton said:
I would suggest to the designer that in lue of the cost to Unfit, refit, new mats, and fillet..... that a simple red high-lite wiped onto the frame in under 5 minutes might just do the job instead. Dry brushed with acrylic or tempera.. it's also reversible.
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Actually Baer...I did suggest this even though I wasn't quite sure how I would do it. Hopefully she's thinking it over. She even asked if I could put a red stripe on the mat. lol

Thanks everyone. Lots of food for thought and I really appreciate it.
 
I Think You're On To Something There

Dawn,
Can you post a picture so we can make suggestions? You can send me a picture and I'll post it for you if you like.

What about a fillet on the frame that features red in some way?

If you have some crumbs of the moulding, you can get out your box of acrylic paints and have a go at experimenting with effects. It's embarrassingly easy.

Or maybe the room can stay red, except for that one wall.

In my humble opinion, red can go with just about anything- seems like there should be a way to make it work short of a re-do.

edie the justthinkinoutloud goddess
 
I'd just repaint the room.

:D
 
It's a brand new order, your customers are having their framing changed. It does not matter where they purchased them.

Had they disliked them from the get-go, I would change them gratis or at a nominal fee. The idea is to keep em happy with what they get from you.

They were happy with the work you did, now they want new work done, they gotta pay, just like anyone else.

If you want to work for free, I am sure I could provide a position for you in my shop.

John
 
update

Designer just left. We're changing the matting to green and beige linen...and adding a 2nd fillet. A bit overkill ...but at least its not red!

As for the pricing, she wasn't thrilled...but did understand once I explained the unassemble, reassemble etc. I only give designers a 10% commission and this one usually uses that towards framing her own pieces. So alls well that ends well. Again, thank you all.
 
Dawn - just curious - do you use visualization?? This is just the thing that Vis is handy for - you can even shange the background color to approximate the wall - turns a long drawn out discussion about odd color choices into a 2 minute exercise...
just my 2 cents.

Tony
 
AWG said:
Dawn - just curious - do you use visualization?? This is just the thing that Vis is handy for - you can even shange the background color to approximate the wall - turns a long drawn out discussion about odd color choices into a 2 minute exercise...
just my 2 cents.

Tony
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Tony, no I don't have vis. system yet. I looked at it in Vegas and am kinda kicking myself now. I might have to just bite the bullet and get it anyway.
 
We would replace at 50% of retail price of materials and no labor charge if within 90 days, our written design guarantee, but for a customer that brings that much in monthly, we would extend the 90 days a few more if needed.

The designer expects to pay for it no matter what they say, why not wow them and tell them how much a deal you are going to give them right up front. Impress them now and they will be back again and again. If you are at 50% of normal retail you should still make a few bucks anyway.
 
Tim:

This is really a change of heart on part of the customer and designer. It has nothing to do with a faulty design.

But I agree with you about giving repeat & volume customers some discount anyway.
 
I understand that it has to do with the customer but my policy is that I will change it no matter what, I don't care if they moved to a new house and changed furniture, if it is within a 90 day period I will change it at 50% off the materials and no labor charge, no questions asked except "How can we make it better for you?"

Now before everyone starts to give me excuses as to why I should not do this or how I am losing money doing this, let me give you some stats on this policy....

We have been doing this for around 5-6 years now

Over that time we have had no more than 10 customers come back, all are within two weeks of picking up

Every customer ends up upgrading their original order (ie, fabric mat, more expensive frame, ect)

Every customer has come back with more framing for us to do for them

I have personally used this policy as a closing tool on no more than 6 customers who used the "I'm going to have to go home and check with my spouse, I usually let them do this type of stuff" excuse to walk. All of them purchased and they have been back without their spouse again.

My COG are still covered and I still make profit $ at the 50% off the regular price, no labor charge

There is not a single Big Box out there that has this policy....Hmmm, what can we do as independants to compete against the big boxes and make consumers feel comfortable about purchasing custom framing?

It's all about the shopping experience!

Oh, one more thing...if the customer changes the frame and wants the original frame back, I give it to them and tell them to come back when they need glass for it.

Now you can tell me what is wrong about this policy.....
 
Hi Tim- Back in the day i worked for a company that offered "Satisfaction Guaranteed or your money back". It wa sposted over every entrance

It "cost" less than 1% (much less) but was the gold standard for Customer Service. Amazingly, we would see a few employees complain that some client "took advantage" of that statement

They never took the time to analyze the LTV (Long Term Value) of that simple decision

The Bottom Line: "The client just left; she wasn't thrilled"

I can't make a stronger point than that
 
True, but there will be many here that will say this policy is wrong.

Years ago I read somewhere that something like 80% of small buisinesses have policies in place just so the consumer will not take advantage of them yet, less than 1% of consumers would ever try to take advantage of a small buisiness.
 
The guarantee of unquestioned customer satisfaction is a powerful incentive for uncertain customers. It really inspires the warm-and-fuzzies. In that regard, guarantees are promotional and most useful going into the transaction.

Published guarantees may not be worth much on the other end, when something is noticed to be wrong. Most customers seek satisfaction if there is a problem, whether a sign over the door guarantees it or not.

My business has a very liberal policy of satsfying customers, but we don't proclaim it loudly. It's on the page of other policies nicely framed in the gallery. Our guarantee is also in fine print on the back of our "Thank you" brochure, which goes home with every frame.

We don't make a big deal about our guarantee in advance of the sale for a couple of reasons:

1. Some customers would use a no-questions-asked guarantee as a substitute for their own decision making process in the frame design. If corrections are free, there's no need to be concerned if their choice of mats & frame isn't quite right the first time.

2. Transacting business of any kind is a negotiating process of communication. For best results, the buyer and seller need to respect each other mutually. If a customer gets the idea that a framer will do anything to make the sale, respect may run a bit thin on that side of the table. I'd rather cultivate mutual respect than guarantee that I'll hold a customer free of all responsibility for making good framing decisions.
 
Bob Carter said:
Back in the day I worked for a company that offered "Satisfaction Guaranteed or your money back". It was posted over every entrance...
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I still recall this scene from when my framing business was new. It was one of those unforgettable life lessons:

A customer came in to look for framed artwork and her first question was whether I offered a money-back guarantee of satisfaction. Of course my answer was a resounding YES. She bought four of my gallery models and I loaded them into her car.

That was on a Friday. Monday afternoon she brought them all back and demanded a full refund. "I'm just not satisfied", she said with a wink and a grin. As I ran the refund on her charge card, she confided that everyone who attended her Saturday night dinner party really liked the artworks, and thanked me for letting her use them.

That was the day I adopted my "no cash refunds" policy.
 
DTWDSM said:
There is not a single Big Box out there that has this policy....Hmmm, what can we do as independants to compete against the big boxes and make consumers feel comfortable about purchasing custom framing?
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Yes, there is, Tim. Michaels has a "satisfication guaranteed" policy, although they will try to wiggle out of it whenever possible. Knowing about this policy, I have encouraged many customers who came in to my shop with "I just can't live with this but I don't want to go back there.",to go back there and press that policy. As long as they still have their receipt, no matter what the reason they're not satisfied (workmanship, quality control issues, color was wrong after they got it home, etc), no matter what, they have to give a refund (not an in-store credit) or make it right at no charge, and the customer ultimately has that choice. They don't like it, and will argue until the customer gives in. I'm speaking for our local M's, but it is a company-wide policy. Ultimately, what it will usually take is for the customer to threaten to write to Corporate before they give it up, they hate it when people do that, because Corporate will side for the customer, every time.

The difference between us and the BB's is, we won't try to argue until the customer gives in, but will do the right thing, depending on the situation. Some of us have different policies.

If the customer insists that the blood-red mat will look great, and I know it won't, and tell them so, sometimes in writing, and they bring it back because that red mat "looks-awful-you-were-right", then I'll most likely charge for a replacement mat, including a disassemble/re-assemble fee. If we all thought it would look great, and turns out it doesn't, I'll replace the mat at no charge, and no additional fee. I should've known, being "the expert", but sometimes we just don't! But if it looked great with the art, and is now going into a different room and doesn't anymore, that's different. Each situation should be assessed accordingly.
 
Sure, Jim, we all have those anecdotal examples (and the exact same thing has happened to us)

But, imagine that if we applied that same standard to accepting checks

Or accepting credit cards

We have all experienced charge backs and NSF, but should that eliminate the practice?

Plan for the 98-99% than creating "what if the 1% happens" standards

We have a 7 day return policy for cash refunds and it gets violated occassionally. But, the fact that clients can "try it out" vastly outweighs the potential abuse

And, we consistently bend that time frame

I just want them "thrilled"
 
A customer, after looking at several frame styles for her mirror, decided to order a closed-corner frame. She paid the deposit up front, and the balance when she picked it up a few weeks later. It was not cheap, but it was quite nice.

A couple of weeks later -- possibly after the credit card statement arrived -- she and her husband brought it back and demanded a full refund. He said she should have consulted him before buying such an over-priced frame.

If this had been an item from stock, or one I could resell easily, or an inexpensive item, I would gladly have refunded the money. But this frame cost more than $1,500 and I didn't particularly want to eat it. So, I respectfully declined, reminding him that she did, indeed, order it and seemed completely happy with her purchase. Besides, it was specially ordered for her.

He was livid when he left, and initiated a chargeback on his wife's credit card. I appealed and won. Then he called the BBB for arbitration. I won again.

That was one completely dissatisfied customer. Fortunately, that was a one-time experience for me. If a sign over my door said "Satisfaction guaranteed or your money back", I would have suffered unfairly

Do you suppose that, if I had refunded that man's money, he or his wife would ever buy from me again? I think probably not.

That was the day I added a sentence about returns of specially ordered items to our published store policies.
 
Bob Carter said:
...But, imagine that if we applied that same standard to accepting checks. Or accepting credit cards. We have all experienced charge backs and NSF, but should that eliminate the practice?...I just want them "thrilled"
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I just want them thrilled too, Bob. I guarantee satisfaction, I just don't have it on a banner over my door. The customers who have gone away from my business dissatisfied in 19 years can be counted on one hand.

I take checks, but I don't have a sign that says it's OK for them to bounce. I take credit cards, but I don't advertise that chargebacks are welcome.
 
Of course, we agree, Jim

I think we are speaking of the spirit of the statement

We don't publish that fact and have decided against a few customers that were just being unreasonable

The whole point was to disagree with the many posters that wanted a hard and fast rule against this designer. As always, hard and fast rules can often defy good common sense
 
Bob Carter said:
...The whole point was to disagree with the many posters that wanted a hard and fast rule against this designer. As always, hard and fast rules can often defy good common sense
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Yes Bob, we agree. Our objective is not to alienate anyone, but to operate a business in fairness to all concerned. That means we should take our customers' situations into account and cooperate when it is appropriate, but not that we should bow to unreasonable demands.
 
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