Questions for Kris Casier and other European framers

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Jana

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
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Aug 12, 2000
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Mansfield, Ohio
Hi Kris, Welcome to the Grumble. Thanks for posting your website. If I can't go on a field trip there, the Internet is the next best thing.

I was curious as to what the hot sellers are in mouldings and mat board colors. It was interesting to read about Moorman mat board.

Some of your mouldings look familiar. It looks like you have some Larson Juhl. Others are pretty cool and different from what I've seen here.

How is the framing market in Europe at this time? It seems like picture framing in Belgium, France, Italy...let's face it - in any and all of Europe would be a dream job (or do I romanticize?)!
 
Dear Jana,

I think framing over here is totally different to what you guys have in the States (see also my reply on the Thank You Card post). Please allow me to use one single phrase (although not 100% correct) to show the general difference:
"Framers in Europe know how make a frame, but not how to sell it. Framers in the States know well how to sell a frame, but they have no idea how it's made".
Let me explain first, because I do not want to be rude at all. Read my explanation first, before you kill be for this statement... ;)

Most of the framers over here really have the skills to make frames. Very often they continued the business of their father, etc... But there it ends. They do have problems with their bookkeeping, and especially with marketing and selling. They do not dare to ask the price the frames are worth. A very good sample is the effort we had to make to convince them to start selling high-quality glass (AR, anti-UV, museum, etc...). My guess is that less than 25% of the Belgian framers now sells high-quality glass from time to time . And Belgium is certainly among the better countries in Europe. The more you go to the south, the more they offer low-cost framing.

Now for the States. I know you all know how the frames are made and how to frame yourself. So - first of all- my appologies for my statement. But a fact is you were among the first to launch the chop-service, where everything is made by your supplier. This is what I mean. Your selling & bookkeeping skills calculated that it was far more interesting to buy the frame pre-cut or joined and to put your time and energy into commercially more interesting stuff like mat cutting, matboard decoration and... most of all having a well decorated shop (many framers over here don't even have a shop - you enter their workshop). Only many years later the chop-service started in Europe and now most of the manufacturers and distributors (including ourself) offer their own chop-service. But you already did it 5 to 10 years earlier.

Another nice example is the matboard decoration. As we sell these American products all over Europe, we tried to convince the framers to spend more time doing stuff like that. The European reaction was: "I cannot charge the customer the time I spend decorating the mat". WHY NOT??? They should! The framers who do charge their customer, do get the demand for mat decoration and they get paid well!

Very often (always?) the framers over here underestimate the buying will (and power) of their customers. They take the decision that the customer will think it (the frame, the AR glass, etc...) is too expensive. While your Americans at least try to sell it. And try to convince the customer. Isn't it why we call it "custom framing"?

It's up to you now to tell me where you prefer to be a framer: Europe or the States...


Now about the mouldings. We only sell the mouldings of 2 companies: Senélar-Larson-Juhl and Larson-Juhl Netherlands. Yes - that's why many mouldings seem familiar to you. You might not know the company Senélar, but they are one of the LJ-plants where the "Craig Ponzio" collection is made.
The most popular models we sell are Florentina, Le Cirque, hopefully soon Etrusca (a new one). All of them are LJ-collections. From the real Senélar stuff (mainly the high quality products) it's more difficult to select one or more series. The series "Petits Ornés" is selling well.

The matboard we sell is Moorman. Some of their products are sold by Crescent in the States (velvet, linnen). We carry their full range of high quality board.
In the matboard business, we had one of the only negative influences from the States: the use of white core (instead of the high quality acid-free cotton or alfa-cellullose boards). Some American manufacturers dropped it on the European market and pulled framers back to a lower quality. A pitty. We only offer the old standard quality (less than 20%) and the alfa-cellullose board - not the white core.

From time to time I make the jump over the ocean to get in touch with framing in the States (I'll be in Vegas in January). These are things we sometimes discuss with my suppliers too (Fletcher, TruVue,...).

Do not hesitate to ask me more about framing over here.

Best regards,
Kris.
 
Kris,

I also appreciate your participation here. Your perspective is fascinating.

We are so very lucky to have Grumblers from several continents. How 'bout a survey to see which states, countries and provinces are represented here? :D
 
I think that Kit has a GREAT idea!!

You could even post a poll on which country, province, state each G'er is located in!

What a super way to get to know all of us!

<font size=1>(Now where did I put those camo. fatigues and my night vision goggles?)</font>

Omar
 
Kris, you explained something to me that I should have understood, and didn't take the time to figure out. I could not understand, for the nearly 9 years that we lived in Europe, why my local national friends thought I was wasting my time custom building frames and cutting mats. I often got the question, "It's just a picture. Why don't you just put it in a frame?" I had real problems explaining the difference between "just putting it in a frame", and custom framing, correctly. I saw this old world crafting in other fields, but it never dawned on me to apply it to my own field. Duh!!! But you are absolutely correct. It is not just the framers who do not know how to market their product, the average consumer thinks that this product is a waste of money, and, as a rule, do not want to hear any differently, or, at least, that was what I ran into. :(

P.S. We were able to spend some time in your beautiful country, and loved it there!
 
I used to think that American custom framers are less accomplished ones because they gave up on their knowledge of frame-making and are building their frames from pre-existent parts that are available to them in a huge array of shapes, colors and finishes. At an individual level that opinion may hold correct, but the whole frame industry had only to profit from the narrow specialization and increased turn over capacity of the American framers. It is not by hazard that framing and frames are so popular in America. European master framers jealously guarding their ancestral secrets are far and rare in between compared to what one can see in America. Consequently, European frame market is underdeveloped in many ways not the least important of which being its size.
Kris has it right. Americans are terrific at selling while Europeans excel in arts and crafts.
If making money is one’s bottom line, then the American way is better. If his personal frame culture, fame and recognition is meaningful to him, then …better be born to a frame-makers European family. Kris knows why
 
To me both extremes are bad for the framing business:

Over here the general interest in framing is getting so low, that the number of framers is going down. This way the profession might start to disappear in the far future.

In the States the general interest is very high, but fewer framers really have the skills. Fortunately you always have many (well attended) seminars & workshops during each show. This really is a very intelligent answer to the "States problem". When we try to organise a marketing or sales seminar, nobody shows up! Although this really is the main problem Belgian/European framers have!

As a distributor we try to get our customers to the same level you guys in the States are. But it's a long road...

Regards,
Kris.
 
Please excuse my not being versed on the European framing ,but what Kris describes has some very strong similarities to the problems we face here in the USA.
While I don't dispute the craftmanship and the skill of the european framers is far superior to ours ,their salesmanship problems are very familiar to some of ours.
My wife and I had the pleasure of attending classes with a European Framer from Kuflak ,Austria .His name was Holvig Kanutbert(SP?). Even though he was more a shopowner/manager his skills were very impressive and his shop had been in existance for over 100 years then (Circa 1987)so we have experienced some of what Kris is describeing.
However it is a very commmon problem to hear that a framer in the USA doesn' tthink a customer base will pay what a skill is worth, and therefore they can't charge what is needed.
Still another paradox is that we here who supposedly do so much "Decrotive matting" try to convince clients that the Planner more European/Museem look is better. Could it be a combination of lack of matting skill and low selling skills that prompts this approach ?But isn't it very similar to what Kris is describeing as a "European" Short coming ,when really it is a framer's shortcoming?(IMHO)
BUDDY
 
Europe is not the only place where frame shops are declining.

From my observations here in Canada the number of frame shops is definitely declining. Some of us see the number of frame shops declining 50% in the next 5 to 10 years. In Canada the industry peaked in 1993 and it has been downhill ever since. There are about 30% to 40% fewer frameshops in Canada now than there were in 1993.

I am in a buying group with 16 American distributors and they tell me they see shops declining as well in their markets.

But at the same time the number of framed prints and the quantity of moulding and picture frame supplies has continued to grow. This industry is definitely growing but what has changed and will continue to change are the channels of distribution for the product.

Some of my old customers have figured out these changes and adapted to it, but not many.

Those who are survivors will have better equipment, better training for themselves and their staff and will make a better living. The survivors will have CMCs & a computer on the front counter to run the day to day business.

The cost to get into the business will be $75,000 to $100,000 just to set up with the right CMC equipment, vacuum presses, underpinners and computer system. You will always be able to do it for a lower price, but the end product and profits will not be the same.

Twenty years ago there were many framers starting with an initial investment of two or three thousand dollars and all they bought was a mat cutter and basic hand tools. Industries with low capital investment to enter provide low profits for the businesses as they attract too many participants. As the capital required to properly enter the framing business has increased the profits those businesses can earn have increased.

Yes there a lots of participants on this forum who are one and two man shops but the trend over the next 10 years will see these types of businesses struggle more than now.

Alan Sturgess
 
What do you (framers) think about the LJ consumer advertising program? Is this a good idea or is it rather too commercial?

From our point of view it looks very nice (although I do not know the details), but not possible in our area: too small (10 million people), 2 languages, etc...

I'm just curious to know what the framers think about it.

Regards,
Kris.
 
Hi Kris, Thanks for your response to my questions. It sounds like a great market for Jay Goltz, Bob Carter, William Parker, Marc Bluestone, or our other business gurus to break into.

About the Larson-Juhl ads - when I am looking at a magazine, the LJ ads jump out at me. I don't know if they have the same effect on consumers. I kinda doubt it! What the ads accomplish is to get the custom framing message out there.

As far as the ads that appear go, a Grumbler (was it Wally or Max?) pointed out once that the scale of the framed piece and the person in the photo is way off. I find that disturbing. I had noticed the discrepancy, but hadn't really thought about it much until reading about it on the Grumble. The frames seem so massive in these ads. Why did they design the ads this way? It's disconcerting. It looks like the frames will jump off the wall and knock out the customer. Do they run the same ads in magazines in Belgium?

On another subject, do most framers in Belgium know how to make closed corner, gilded frames? That, to me, is really knowing what making a frame is about. Gilding is the sort of skill that would be passed down from generation to generation. I'm still in the dark, but in another lifetime would like to learn gilding.

A skill that I can't imagine would be better in the old days would be the method for joining frames. The v-nailer rules (speaking of Cassese from the experience in our shop)! And I can't forget wood glue (Cornerweld). It's gotta be better than messing with hide glue.

This is a bit rambling, but it's Sunday morning, and it's been a l-o-n-g week!
 
Dear Jana,

Thusfar no distributor placed ads in "Lifestyle" magazines. As I told: 2 languages, small area. This is mainly the problem, espcially when the cost of such ads is very high. I don't know if LJ Netherlands does something over there. I suppose they do in France. There is no LJ in Belgium (we distribute most of their mouldings).

Since last year we (the distributors) tried to launch the Belgian Framing Association. But it's been very hard to convince the framers to join the club... No framer is willing to spend some money, when they do not get an immediate return. But we are still working on it.

Regards,
Kris.
 
Welcome to the Grumble Kris, from another in Europe.

I’m aware of you and your business, John Ranes has spoken highly of you, when I have meet him.

I won’t add to your comments of Europe vs. the US you have said it so well.

It’s is sad to say that the majoratory of framers in Ireland do not make their full living from framing, most would have a second source of income, in fact a number of framers (big ones) are in the process of leaving the business at present for pastures new, this astonishes me as we have a very vibrant and prosperous economy in Ireland these days, in fact to give an example of the strength of the Irish economy, I quote today’s newspapers, RyanAir an Irish airline and not even our National airline are now the biggest and main customer of The Boeing Aircraft Manufacturing Company, they just placed an order for a 100 aircrafts this is on top of the 150 they ordered earlier this year, the main shopping street in Dublin (Grafton Street) commands some of the highest rents in the world……………..the problems for framers in Ireland is they will not charge enough………………..how do you change the mind set.
 
Kris; when you asked about the LJ advertiseing program ,I couldn't help but notice that they may be the only suppliers in that area or very close to it( We only sell the mouldings of 2 companies: Senélar-Larson-Juhl and Larson-Juhl Netherlands. Yes - that's why many mouldings seem familiar to you.)So their adds might just have a different effect there. Here while the adds are nice it could depend on how much a shop does business with LJ. For example if you are a LJ partner shop you probably love every add,but if you are one of the shops they will not do business with ,those same adds could be seen as boosting your competition.
However I have heard the concept that "A riseing tide helps all the ships." But how do you explain to the prospective client that wants exactly what they saw in the adds ,that you can only offer a close look alike ,especially if the adds say something like "Found in GOOD frame shops everywhere"?
BUDDY
 
Buddy, We sell Larson Juhl and other companies' frames. No customer has ever come in and mentioned the Larson Juhl ads or that they are looking for an LJ frame by name. The only time that comes about is when they have an old frame they are trying to match and it happens to be Larson. I do think their ads (as well as Framer Select's ads) help get the word out about custom framing.

It's surprising to me that frame shops are not thriving in Europe. I just figured there would be lots of antique prints and original works of art that would require conservation framing and that customers would be clamoring for this service.
 
Dear Buddy,

I do agree with you, that there might be a commercial side to the LJ ads. It think it's really normal - they pay, so they should get some return first.
But I think it helps the whole framing industry as well - at least from my point of view. That's really what I wanted to know: do framers feel an effect from this kind of ads (whether it's from LJ or from some other distributor)?

Best regards,
Kris.
 
Jana,

You are in for a new surprise because most Europeans are having a more casual attitude toward things that you look upon as being of art or antique value. They walk on antique streets, many live in antique houses, surrounded by some antique objects. They are not that fussy about preserving their "daily" environment. Kris can confirm it to you that many unsophisticated European people tend to drop their old valuable frames in exchange for new frames!

Same relaxed attitude toward their art heritage, be it Michelangelo or Brancusi. For instance, in the Romanian city of Targu Jiu (in which Brancusi was born and lived before moving to France) there is a huge, public, Brancusi art site in the open. Monuments like The Infinity Column, The Silence's Table and The Kissing Gate are literally there for everybody to see, touch and live with. This is how Brancusi imagined his work and, much to his postume satisfaction, people still genuinely pass by, have a sit to his Silence's Table, walk through his Kissing Gate without questioning their value or state of preservation. Many Greeks from Athens clime only once or twice in their life time, as pupils, The Acropolis.

On the other hand, "young" Americans are acutely aware and in loved with antiquities and this is why they collect and pay attention to the condition in which such artifacts are kept and displayed.
 
At least a couple of times I have been asked about Larson frames directly from the ad, and twice when asked why the framing was so expensive, been able to say,(turning sample over) "Well, it IS a Craig Ponzio..." and sold it that way...
As to our value of antiquities, when I was in Turkey at Ephesus, I couldn't believe that we were walking among Roman ruins with everyone putting their grubby hands all over those antiquities and not one person said a word! I mean, that stuff is old by anyone's reckoning!
 
Kris, I think the Larson ads are good for everyone, and perhaps better for the people who carry thie products.
 
Kris ,I have no argument with LJ receiveing "some return for their investment" in fact i think they should receive ALL the return for their investment. The problem i have is when someone says "It is for the good of the entire industry".
I am not trying to "BASH" anyone (God I hate that phrase),but it can't be when some Framers are denied being sold the very product that is being advertised. I fully understand if you can buy the product and don't, but when you can't meet the qualifications imposed by the advertiser and may just wish you could; these adds don't help you . Actually if someone sees them and tries to find that product,unless you can SELL them something else ,the add could cause you to loose a sale.
Please understand I do business with LJ and am glad I do but I am sure some others feel just the opposite . I am also trying to address your question ,while understanding your prospective ( Haveing only LJ to choose from) while thinking about others here who can't even when they wish to.
I hope I made my point clear and I also hope I am not accused of bashing or hateing anyone especially LJ.
BUDDY
 
Liike Dermot said "Welcome to Europe". Personally, I love the idea that I can walk around 2000 year old ruins, it's the charm of the place. It is sad to see grafitti so prevalent (even inside St Peters Basilica), but it is kind of neat to see "Giovani was here LXCIV"
 
I don't know how I managed to get back to the Grumble but I am pleased to see some of the perennial subjects appearing in the Europe v USA
debate.
Of course America knows how to make good money
out of framing once the orders are there. Making money is an American tradition.
Of course Europe knows how to make quality frames
because it has done it all before; it's a European tradition.
Of course framers in the US of A make good frames
but the market over here seems quite different from the States at least as far as the competition goes. In the UK most framing businesses are owner run. The man or woman behind the counter is most likely the owner or a relative. WE ALL DO IT TO MAKE A LIVING BUT MANY OF US DO NOT DO MUCH MORE THAN THAT.

My wife Gloria,who works with me, has recently started to IMPROVE our prices! "You're not charging enough. Just look at the time and effort and skill needed to do that last job. You're too much on the customer's side!" I seem to remember my Mum saying those same words to my Dad over 40 years ago!
After twenty five years of mounting - sorry matting- and framing in London, we moved to our present home in Hawick, a small town in the Scottish Borders region, to be closer to our daughter. After a short 'rest period' we opened our retail framing shop. Press advertising was a complete waste of money. So we adopted a policy of never turning a potential customer away. Whatever they wanted we did it. No matter how small, large, strange, cheap or dear we took the work on. We go out of our way to be nice to people (and their pictures !). We cannot expect to get London or even Glasgow or Edinburgh or any big city prices. But we do look after their artwork and they are looking after us with their repeat business and their word of mouth recommendation of our little shop. All it would take for us to start making proper money would be an injection of that great USA product - Business accumen.

PS I keep seeing references to French Mats. Is this the general term for any mat with line and wash decoration. because, if so, I would like to point pout that there is a very definite difference for the style of decoration used in France and the UK

Alan Rolph, Teviot Frames, HAWICK, SCOTLAND
 
I don't know how I managed to get back to the Grumble but I am pleased to see some of the perennial subjects appearing in the Europe v USA
debate.
Of course America knows how to make good money
out of framing once the orders are there. Making money is an American tradition.
Of course Europe knows how to make quality frames
because it has done it all before; it's a European tradition.
Of course framers in the US of A make good frames
but the market over here seems quite different from the States at least as far as the competition goes. In the UK most framing businesses are owner run. The man or woman behind the counter is most likely the owner or a relative. WE ALL DO IT TO MAKE A LIVING BUT MANY OF US DO NOT DO MUCH MORE THAN THAT.

My wife Gloria,who works with me, has recently started to IMPROVE our prices! "You're not charging enough. Just look at the time and effort and skill needed to do that last job. You're too much on the customer's side!" I seem to remember my Mum saying those same words to my Dad over 40 years ago!
After twenty five years of mounting - sorry matting- and framing in London, we moved to our present home in Hawick, a small town in the Scottish Borders region, to be closer to our daughter. After a short 'rest period' we opened our retail framing shop. Press advertising was a complete waste of money. So we adopted a policy of never turning a potential customer away. Whatever they wanted we did it. No matter how small, large, strange, cheap or dear we took the work on. We go out of our way to be nice to people (and their pictures !). We cannot expect to get London or even Glasgow or Edinburgh or any big city prices. But we do look after their artwork and they are looking after us with their repeat business and their word of mouth recommendation of our little shop. All it would take for us to start making proper money would be an injection of that great USA product - Business accumen.

PS I keep seeing references to French Mats. Is this the general term for any mat with line and wash decoration. because, if so, I would like to point pout that there is a very definite difference for the style of decoration used in France and the UK

Alan Rolph, Teviot Frames, HAWICK, SCOTLAND
 
This is a very interesting thread.
As to the L-J consumer ad program, I think it is fantastic. Yes, the frames are huge in scale, and the imagery creating the scenes or tableaus is "Photoshopped" noticeably, but on general principles I believe it does raise the awareness of what can be contributed to one's home environment by custom framing- and it is targeted to just the people who are most potentially interested and able to afford our services. I don't think people come in and ask for the PARTICULAR styles they see shown, or even L-J frames by name, but they come in to see the possibilities.
It was mentioned earlier that Europeans do not seem to offer mat decorating as much. Interestingly, a couple of years ago we were in a little art shop in Sterling, Scotland (yes, as in battle of Sterling, Braveheart, etc.). I purchased a small print because I liked the musical imagery, but even more because the mat treatment really made it shine. It was a simple double mat, but the inner mat had been painted (1/4" reveal and bevel) w. acrylic paints and slightly textured to go with elements in the print. This probably took about five minutes to accomplish, but resulted in a sale to me of about $25. for what was essentially a postcard image. And I was happy to pay for it.
Welcome to Alan Rolph. I think you may be our first Scottish Grumbler. I raise my can of Irn Bru to ye!

:cool: Rick
 
Hi Alan, What are the differences between the French mat styles in the UK and France? I think regional differences are fascinating, and knowing about them is a good way to learn different techniques.
 
French Mats Les Passepartouts

The traditional ( 19th century ) mats tended to be made on a very thin card, perhaps about a one ply in US terms, with a surface of an INGRES or CANSON style paper. The line decoration was often a very dark sepia or prhaps a warmer brown. A design of lines both thick and thin , usually with a broadish ( 2mm - 3mm ) gold paper band. On the early mats these strips of gold paper were actually gilded and then toned down in the same way as are frames. In fact when I first went framing in London, it was papt of my job to prepare such gold paper strips
The base colour of the top papers was often a light brown or beige with many mats being made on a blue/green paper. This blue paper known to me as FRENCH BLUE (sorry!) was also used incollectors albums and to strip round the backs of frames to cover the fitting up brads (small flat cut nails). Next time you get to handle an old frames if the stripping paper is/was blue then it MAY be French.
The water colour washes between the ink lines varied enormously but for me I favour the subtle pinks, greens and FRENCH BLUEs, which often had some white added to the water colour, rather like a thinned gouche.
Later mats were just as above but the whole was mounted onto a very thick board -US 8 ply maybe - with the thich bevel covered in a white or off white paper. They are usually wonderfully subtle
things which complement their style of picture particularly, for me the lovely 18th and 19th century prints.

End of lecture. Tomorrow the English mount!

On a point of personal explanation, I am an Englishman residing in Scotland and very happt to be so.

Alan Rolph Teviot Frames, Hawick, Roxboroughshire Scotland
 
English Mounts (Mats)

The traditional English mount (last quarter 19th century) followed on much in the style of the earlier practise of artist drawing ink lines around watercolour drawings which had been laid down ( pasted or hinged ) onto a suppoert paper.
What has developed over the last 120 odd years is a much more gentle approach to the decoration.
Lines, often drawn in watercolour with a ruling pen, of varying numbers, usually with a pale watercolour wash between a pair of lines maybe 3/8" to 3/4" apart. The mounts ccut from a board,in English terms, 6 sheet thickness (USA 4ply?). Colours were mostly white, off whites and creams.
I have always thought that the difference between a true French mount and an English one reflects the style and strength of colour in the different approaches to watercolour painting in the two countries. The French, like many European counties favoured a stronger line in the drawing and colouring compared to the more gentle English ( & Scottish & Irish !) Sorry Dermot and Reynard - styles. These differences point up the fact that in good mount decoration there is no such thing as one size fits all. Sypathy to the picture, provide the jewel with its proper setting and don't try to beat our best friend the picture into submission. I rest my case.

I have the impression, and it is only that, that "The American Mat" plays a more positive role in the presentation of paper pictures in the Framing Industry. Is this true.

Alan Rolph, Teviot Frames HAWICK, Roxboroughshire Scotland.
 
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