Question Protective coating for canvas?

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Bill C

CGF II, Certified Grumble Framer Level 2
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Jan 30, 2009
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North Jersey
A customer brought in a older canvas to reframe. The canvas is starting to crack and chip. They don't want to spend the money
on restoration, so they were wondering if there was something they can buy to apply on it to keep from further damage.(polyurethane:shrug:) All suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.



Bill
 
I do a lot of these type of canvas' Bill................I would go with what Jim says............use the acrylic......Nothing worse then big chunks of paint falling off the piece......:eek:

Good luck! :D
 
I'm using a liner with the frame, so I could just put the acrylic between the liner and frame. Thanks for the idea. This forum really is the best source of info. Thanks again.


Bill
 
How exactly will the glass/acyrlic stop the paint from falling off/chipping?
 
blackiris said:
I do a lot of these type of canvas' Bill................I would go with what Jim says............use the acrylic......Nothing worse then big chunks of paint falling off the piece......:eek:

Good luck! :D
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As one who spent six years scraping a coat acrylic varnish off an oil painting, I'd just like to say - "Pleeeeeease Dooooon't".:D

Seriously.:D

If the client wants a quick (cheap) fix, then Liquin will consolidate the flakey bits better. It's strictly a one-way process though. It will make later resoration next to impossible.
 
Prospero..........dud e.............I ment ACRYLIC as in........PLEXI......
I would never ever ever ever EVER put acrylic spray on a painting!
 
GUMBY said:
How exactly will the glass/acyrlic stop the paint from falling off/chipping?
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That question raises an important point, Gumby.

Glazing would not reverse the damage already done, but it would provide the best protection from environmental conditions that could make the problem worse, and might have caused it in the first place.

A painted coating probably would not help much, since the real problem is probably under the paint layer. Coating the top of it might not help at all, but might make it worse. If the problem was not caused by some sort of extreme environment, maybe the paint is falling off the canvas because it was not prepared properly in the beginning.

Either way, conservation treatment would be appropriate to repair the damage and stop its progression. I'm not a conservator, so I don't know for sure, but I guess treatment would involve consolidation well beyond a topical coating, perhaps including substantial in-painting.
 
Bill C said:
A customer brought in a older canvas to reframe. The canvas is starting to crack and chip. They don't want to spend the money
on restoration, so they were wondering if there was something they can buy to apply on it to keep from further damage.(polyurethane:shrug:) All suggestions would be appreciated. Thanks.



Bill
Click to expand...

Bill lets start over..
We have already determined they don't want to pay for restoration
so that advice is refused.

1. The older canvas (one year or 50 years?)
2. Is it an oil painting or an acrylic painting?
3. Is the surface clean or should it be cleaned?
4. Is it just decorative, art done by family member or is it actually art done by a valid artist?
5. Do they care that if they alter it and it will possible devalue it in the future?
I believe these all need to be addressed & answered before a solution can be offered.

No to the glass.
I disagree that putting glass over it will do anything to correct or prevent the problem of it cracking & flaking off. Other than take the customer's money and put in yours.
 
I have the same issue

Can someone actually give some sound advice on how to prevent the painting from flaking even more? Not trying to be mean, but I've seen another post that was similar and no one gave any advice other then seek a professional restorationist (not sure if that's the correct term). Is there anyone on here that is reading this thread that does restoration and can give some quick fix tips to prevent an old painting from flaking (not necessarily keeping it's value but just prevent it from falling apart)? I am curious since I have a friend with a painting (I think it's acrylic) that is flaking, it's large, old, and has little value. They don't care about the value, other then they really like the painting. They want me to stretch it, but I wonder if there is a glazing that I can put on before that will keep it from breaking apart.

REAL advice is appreciated,

Thanks
 
GUMBY said:
Bill lets start over..
We have already determined they don't want to pay for restoration
so that advice is refused.

1. The older canvas (one year or 50 years?)
2. Is it an oil painting or an acrylic painting?
3. Is the surface clean or should it be cleaned?
4. Is it just decorative, art done by family member or is it actually art done by a valid artist?
5. Do they care that if they alter it and it will possible devalue it in the future?
I believe these all need to be addressed & answered before a solution can be offered.

No to the glass.
I disagree that putting glass over it will do anything to correct or prevent the problem of it cracking & flaking off. Other than take the customer's money and put in yours.
Click to expand...

The canvas is at least 50 yrs old, and it looks to be acrylic. It is pretty clean other than the few cracks. I think his only concern is further crackling in the future. It was in his parents house, so it has more sentimental value than monetary value in my view. But what do I know:shrug: I'm just a framer. Maybe if I get a better idea of what it might cost him to restore the canvas, he might go for it.
 
Much more to go on.
Bill

It was in his parents house, so it has more sentimental value than monetary value in my view. But what do I know I'm just a framer.
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It is really what the customers value on it is unless you know it is worth Big$'s.

As Jim stated if the problem is with the painting ground it is like a cancer.
Probably will not stop it.

If the cracks may have been casued by mishandleing' like a bump to the front or the back of the painting then the problem would be easier to address.
Interesting fact; acrlyics usually do not crack unless they are applied very thick and even then they need to be flexed pretty much to get them to crack. Of course this dates back into the late 50's early 60's so who knows what creeps within this painting.

If it were my painting & I knew there was no value & was an acyrlic for sure I would clean the surface with damp cloth. Then I would give it tow coats of Liquitex Gloss or Matt Varnish. Working the varnish into the cracks. This I know if it is the painting ground it may not stop it from coming loose. But it will keep it from flaking off any more.
Again that "is if it were mine".
If it were an oil that would be a whole diff. process.
 
DPPhotography said:
Is there anyone on here that is reading this thread that does restoration and can give some quick fix tips to prevent an old painting from flaking....
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I don't know if we have anyone on the G who does painting restoration...maybe we do....but I can tell you that very few who do would offer a 'quick fix' for anything that has damage...in fact seldom are quick or fix used in the same sentence when it comes to restoration, especially sight unseen. That's our quandry. There's too many variables. We're happy to help, but we don't want to add damage to the piece.

Now, if a conservator wouldn't/couldn't give advice, its even harder for us framers to do so. We know even less. Framers shouldn't experiment on customer's artwork. It's a golden rule. It's not that we don't want to help... its probably just beyond our expertise.

I'd love to help if I had the knowledge.

There are methods to do it, I've just never done it.
http://www.topcstudio.com/new_template_support_damage.htm
This uses adhesive and silicone. Are they really safe for paintings? I have no idea.

Or here:
http://jmculvergallery.wordpress.com/2007/12/11/how-to-repair-your-damaged-paintings-for-artists/
This says 'for artists' which sound a little 'beware' about it being called a professional process.
 
I agree with Janet,

If you noticed That is why I put "If it were my painting"

If you do not know! Don't rely on others who only think they know.
They don't make good witnesses in court... LOL
 
Bill C said:
Maybe if I get a better idea of what it might cost him to restore the canvas, he might go for it.
Click to expand...

Usually a conservator will give a quote without committing to the work.

No harm in contacting one...
 
DPPhotography said:
Can someone actually give some sound advice on how to prevent the painting from flaking even more? Not trying to be mean, but I've seen another post that was similar and no one gave any advice other then seek a professional restorationist (not sure if that's the correct term). Is there anyone on here that is reading this thread that does restoration and can give some quick fix tips to prevent an old painting from flaking (not necessarily keeping it's value but just prevent it from falling apart)? I am curious since I have a friend with a painting (I think it's acrylic) that is flaking, it's large, old, and has little value. They don't care about the value, other then they really like the painting. They want me to stretch it, but I wonder if there is a glazing that I can put on before that will keep it from breaking apart.

REAL advice is appreciated,

Thanks
Click to expand...

As far as I know That's just what has been given. :thumbsup:
There is no magic kwikfix juice that will do the job. You can do certain things that will appear to solve the problem temporarily, but when push comes to shove, flaking paint means that the artist was a bit lacking in knowledge about the craft side of his trade. It could be bad primer, too much turps in the paint mix or any number of things. The painting was therefore essentially doomed from the day it was painted. Any attempts to fix it short of major restoration would not last long and would make later 'proper' restoration more difficult or immpossible.

Sorry if that's not what you wanted to hear, but it's sincere advice.:)
 
Thanks Jan

I apreciate the advice. I didn't mean to come across pissy if anyone took it that way, I just saw a lot of jokes being said without any help, but I realize that this isn't a community of artists, it is for framers, and sometime, because there are so many knowledgable people, I tend to forget that sometimes. I will pass on the advice to my friend as to their painting and perhaps seek out a retoration shop in the area that can help. Sorry again to be crabby
 
DPPhotography said:
I apreciate the advice. I didn't mean to come across pissy if anyone took it that way, I just saw a lot of jokes being said without any help, but I realize that this isn't a community of artists, it is for framers, and sometime, because there are so many knowledgable people, I tend to forget that sometimes. I will pass on the advice to my friend as to their painting and perhaps seek out a retoration shop in the area that can help. Sorry again to be crabby
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:) It's okay. I've been on the other side of it, too. It was hard because I really wanted to help my customer but I knew they couldn't afford a conservator. But its frustrating, because you want to help them.

In the end, I wound up telling them that doing nothing at all is better than doing the wrong thing and making it worse.

Since that time, I've learned to do a few very light cleanings...but I'm still not attempting any restoration.

My state has only four conservators...and they're all pretty far away. I'd love to learn.
 
Jim Miller said:
Washington, D.C. probably contains more professional conservators per-capita than any other city in the world. That's not very far from Virginia, is it?
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It's not...but my problem is that I'm a one-woman shop...the shutdown time would kill me right now. (To learn.) I can't even say there's a high demand for it here...but I would LOVE to learn. Maybe one day.

As far as painting conservators (traditional paint on canvas), according to the AIC, they have six in DC. There are also 6 more in Richmond (I thought 4, but I did another query). But Richmond is the closest city.

I'm at least three hours away from my closest conservator one way...and that doesn't make for an easy way of offering restoration. Either they have to charge for time and travel or I have to shut down and do the drive. It's just not practical. If I drive and take the item for an estimate, I also have to bring it back and give the customer an estimate and then drive it back if they decide to go ahead.

When I was in Milwaukee, I worked with a wonderful conservator who offered free estimates and would drop by whenever I needed him. <sigh>
 
When the ground layer, where the paint joins the canvas, becomes weak, it presents a problem that is quite difficult to address, since the paint is in the way. Adding coating material, on top of the paint may only add to the problem. As is the case with all conservation problems, this should only be tackled by trained conservators, since the risks involved may be huge. Jim's answer is the proper one for preservation framers, since it entails no change for the painting and isolating the painting from its harmful environment may slow the breakdown of the paint layers.



Hugh
 
What a lot of people don't realise is that oil paint will continue reacting with the atmosphere for decades after it is 'touch dry'. During this time the paint will shrink and a network of fine cracks will start to appear. Not a problem if the paint has been mixed properly and the ground has been well prepared. Traditionaly, the paint is combined with a medium of turpentine and linseed oil. The oil makes it stick and the turps aids the 'flow'. Put too much turps in and the bond is compromised. You can usually spot a 'too much turps' painting if the surface appears matt. In a painting like this, if any cracks appear the edges start to curl up and eventually the flake will detach. I've seen old paintings like this where you can literaly brush the paint off. Glazing the painting won't stop the process, but at least the flakes will be caught inside the frame. In some cases a good restorer could replace the flakes, but mostly paintings like this are extensively repainted, sometimes many times. There are 'Old Master' oils hanging in galleries all over the world where very little of the original paint is still visible. It's reckoned that only a few square inches of the Leonardo 'Last Supper' fresco is original paint by the man himself. Not a good example as it is not an oil and when it was painted it was just nice wall decoration and was not regarded as an 'important' work. The monks even knocked a door though the bottom part. But I digress....
Acrylics are a different animal and they haven't been around long enough to prove their long-term integrity. Formulas have been improved over the years, but paintings executed in this medium when it first came on the market have caused problems for restorers. Fading is a major issue with the first generation of acrylics. There have been cases where people have acrylic paintings worth $millions only to watch them rapidly deteriorate with no hope of restoration. I remember a few lawsuits flying about a few years back concerning David Hockney paintings and a few others....:icon11: The so-called 'action painters' have also had trouble as part of the very technique is supposed to be anarchic. So they would use any old paint they could find with not regard for compatablity. (Or posterity.:icon11:)
 
prospero said:
Put too much turps in and the bond is compromised...I've seen old paintings like this where you can literaly brush the paint off. Glazing the painting won't stop the process, but at least the flakes will be caught inside the frame...
Click to expand...

Of course, you are probably correct in speculating that layers of the painting were flawed from the beginning. It makes sense that extensive conservation treatment would be necessary to repair that sort of existing damage and minimize its future deterioration.

If the environment has no past or future effect on the painting, then glazing would, as you said, only contain the flakes.

However, if environment is a contributor to the deterioration, then glazing and solid backing would enclose the whole assembly and slow the rate of environmental changes inside the frame. So, to whatever extent the environment may contribute to the deterioration, glazing would help in that regard.

In any case, I guess we agree that no quick-fix applied by the framer would benefit the painting.
 
Here's one I didn't do earlier......;) It was brought in a few years back for a quick-fix. I said I would see what I could do. ;) As things turned out I haven't done anything to it. Just as well as the owner has never been back.

flakey001.jpg


This painting is a typical example of carp paint. It's not all that old, maybe 40's/50's. Another thing to consider.... Most flakey paintings are not only flakey, they are also dirty. If you try and clean them you will probably end up with a blank canvas. Applying a clear medium (varnish/liquin/whatever) will go some way to consolidating the surface, but it will also effectively seal in all the dirt.
 
I guess we've all seen paintings like that one. What a mess.

It looks like the canvas has been flexed, as though somebody was beating it like a drum. I saw one like that belonging to an audiophile who had it hanging in the same room where he played rock music loudly. The music caused the canvas to vibrate, just as a loudspeaker flexes as it produces sound. He said his windows vibrated, as well. Not surprisingly, he complained that the paintings in that room were always going crooked from the vibrations, so he likes our two-point hanging systems.

Glazing and a solid backer would also buffer vibration and flexing from impacts, handling, and environments with loud noises. Slamming a door can cause the canvas to flex by vibration. Hanging the painting on a wall that vibrates -- say, one with a laundry room or air handling system on the other side -- can be damaging that way, too.

There isn't much to be done with a carp canvas, but we can protect it from environmental harm, at least.
 
The customer is going with only the framing for now, because his canvas isn't as bad as Prosperos. I told him the problem most likely started from the begining and without restoration there is no quick fix, and I also informed him that I could put the optium plexi glass to slow the detioration as Jim suggested. So at least he is well informed as to what his options are if he chooses to preserve it. Thanks to everybodies input, the customer was very happy with all this info we were able to give him.:thumbsup:
 
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