Pros vs Cons of making The Grumble a private website

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cjmst3k

cjmst3k

SGF, Supreme Grumble Framer
Joined
Apr 25, 2006
Posts
4,414
I've seen a number of threads where people are talking about wholesale prices for matboard, glass, frames to have our moderators (understandably) mention that we can't discuss it on the board because it's "public".

Examples:

http://www.thegrumble.com/showthread.php?53386-need-help-with-pricing-.........

http://www.thegrumble.com/showthread.php?52380-Museum-Glass-Price





We've seen internet shoppers asking us to identify mouldings, with reasonable expectations that they are not looking to patronize any of our businesses, and possibly looking to find some frames for wholesale prices, once identified (which is certainly possible from some vendors nowadays).

Examples:

http://www.thegrumble.com/showthread.php?53957-can-you-help-me-identify-this-frame-pattern

http://www.thegrumble.com/showthread.php?53984-looking-for-a-quot-clean-quot-looking-gold-frame




We've seen people join The Grumble site, just to spam people's inboxes and forums.

Example:
http://www.thegrumble.com/showthread.php?25595-Forum-Spammer-Alert&highlight=spam




Posts of a delicate nature, normally of "Grumble" and "Business Issues" topics, are instead posted on "Warped", just because it's the only corner of this website that isn't public, though its viewed (and presumably commented on) much less frequently.

Examples omitted, as the nature of putting them on Warped to begin with is because of privacy.




So, I'm just curious what you all think of the pros and cons of the possibility of The Grumble being a "private" site, where perhaps you'd have to pay a $10 or $20 annual fee to be a member, and you can talk completely openly?

I know this won't happen, but I'm up for a conversation on the matter, just to hear pros-and-cons. Obviously, the website owner has furnished a lovely, comprehensive forum for us to get together, and that with just a change to make it private and paid would make the website a more open experience.


Anyway, my list of pros and cons.


PROS:
-We can talk about pricing (finally!), which can only benefit framers.
-No more spammers! (who would pay to join a website they can't see, just to possibly spam it?)
-No more hobbyists getting info on here to who don't seem to want to go to a framer.
-We can talk openly (relatively) about customer issues, with less concern of it being found on a Google search


CONS:
-$10 - $20 fee may be too high for some
-Advertising revenue may be lower, because less people view the site (though more qualified viewers)



Anyway - just curious if I'm the only one who would like the freedom that comes with privacy?



(grumbler putting a helmet, and ducking from flying objects)

i_make_helmet-7077.gif
 
It has worked well for years just as it is. Why ruin a good thing. Go to PPFA if you wan't a private closed place.

Don't mess with the Grumble!! :p:p
 
Just make Business Issues private like Warped. Not sure why Warped is private. But if sensitive info is posted in Business Issues then it should be private / hidden from google.

Not sure how much difference it makes anymore when suppliers post wholesale prices online / sell to public.
 
Make the whole thing private. I'll pay $10-20 a year.

If you don't charge then you would need some screening process to keep the general public out.
 
"Private" isn't really "private" anyways, unless you go to the extent of validating qualifications of some sort, by some method. Sure, you'd keep out the riffraff the way you keep a burglar out of your car by locking the door - but you don't keep out the guy that really wants what's in there/here.
 
I agree with Pat - don't mess with it. I do believe the Grumblers should use a little common sense when asking questions about cost and price though. This is an open forum and price should not be discussed unless it is being discussed in a private section like the Warped.
just my $0.02 Joe B
 
I like the idea of making business issues private or perhaps a new section can be created to allow us to 'freely' speak about our business.

On the other hand, I do see the benefit in keeping most of the gumble as an open forum. In the past, I did get a new customer who was browsing google and came across one of my posts in frame design.
 
David N Waldmann said:
"Private" isn't really "private" anyways, unless you go to the extent of validating qualifications of some sort, by some method. Sure, you'd keep out the riffraff the way you keep a burglar out of your car by locking the door - but you don't keep out the guy that really wants what's in there/here.
Click to expand...

Of course people could see just by registering, but the difference is not having posts with sensitive information show up in their google results when consumers search an item/topic, and the Grumble can rank quite high on those pages.

But again the whole point is moot, since so many suppliers/distributors have frustratingly put out all our costs anyway who cares anymore. We're not going to get less screwed from this point out.
 
Julie Walsh said:
I like the idea of making business issues private or perhaps a new section can be created to allow us to 'freely' speak about our business.
.
Click to expand...

I agree that Business should be private as well. Why should warped be the only "private" section? If a casual lookers finds our site then seeing examples of our work is a good thing. As is seeing tips and general framing discussions. But pricing, and our humor, should be reserved for our eyes only :)
 
Methinks this is another one of those suggestions where its really not up to us to decide. It's sort of like me deciding whether or not to sell your car, polling other people about where we should list it..and then ask you if its okay.

I'm just happy to be here. How it is, is up to Bill.

We know how it is, we should just post accordingly. Spam is everywhere.
 
Here's another vote for changing one section such as business issues to private settings. We need a place where we can freely and openly discuss pricing and customer relations other than in warped because most would not look there for those items.
 
johnny said:
But again the whole point is moot, since so many suppliers/distributors have frustratingly put out all our costs anyway who cares anymore. We're not going to get less screwed from this point out.
Click to expand...

I agree!!!
 
I wouldn't mind the entire site going private, but Business for sure. I also have no problem with charging a fee to visit the private sections. Running this site is not free. The server upgrades and hosting etc add up. A small fee I would think would help Bill keep things going.

If nothing happens, I would like to see a Donate button so that we can help deffer these costs.
 
FrameMakers said:
I wouldn't mind the entire site going private, but Business for sure. I also have no problem with charging a fee to visit the private sections. Running this site is not free. The server upgrades and hosting etc add up. A small fee I would think would help Bill keep things going.

If nothing happens, I would like to see a Donate button so that we can help deffer these costs.
Click to expand...

Ditto to all this.

One additional benefit to the private section is that your posting doesn't show up in a Google search. ( I think)

I try be be very careful about attaching my name to comments the whole world can see.

If I were more brilliant, I wouldn't care about the public broadcast of every word.

Doug
 
Warped might be private, but everyone can sign up and then lurk...

I like the Grumble the way it is, and other than that; I'm with Janet; it's not my decision.

Whatever happens; I don't want to loose the Grumble!!!!
 
I don't mind the price checks. It helps to see where my own pricing is. Customers can't do much with it anyway.

As for whole sales pricing and mark ups; I don't discuss that, private forum or not. I do discuss pricing if I feel it won't mean much to 'outsiders' anyway.
 
Lest we forget!

"The Original BBS for picture framers, open to all with questions and interest in the picture framing industry. Retail, Homebased, Newbies, Suppliers, just interested in learning, everyone's welcome. Lets us know what you like or problems that you are having in picture framing today. You're not alone any more, come join the fun."

The royal "we" does not own this place. If you want private and don't want to join PPFA, start your own forum. :p

Bill, thanks again for this wonderful place.
 
I don't mind paying a small fee if needed. The Grumble is worth it.

I didn't know when I first started posting that it was a public forum. So when I "google" my name, Grumble postings from 2002-2004 come up with an incorrect title, incorrect email and the topic that I was asking about. So now that I have learned my lesson, I don't put any personal information in a posting. I would prefer that my clients/business networking contacts... not have access to one of my sources of information.

Susan
 
Interesting thread. I wouldn't mind paying to view certain threads. Cost of doing business- research/information.

You're never going to keep those searching for information from finding costs, etc. If they want it, it's out there. We can certainly refrain from discussing it though.

Otherwise the G is fabuloso the way it is.
 
Pros;
Keeping the general public off, there is no reason for them to know how we conduct business or what we pay for our products.
Stopping posts like NEED SOME ADVICE. Same post, Posted 3 times by the same poster who has only posted 3 friggen times. Poster GO TO A HOBBIE SHOP!!!!
Cons;
Leave the Grumble as is but refrain from discussing pricing and cost on an open forum.
 
Why don't one or a couple of you, such as the original poster, start a moderated social group where you can openly discuss pricing. Recruitment is a problem, but you can periodically toss up a thread in the main forum about price discussions going on in the social group.

You control who has access to the group and if you judge that it is not a framer, decline their request to join. The G has several under utilized features. Granted, this would take time and effort on the part of the group moderator, but it sounds like the conversation would be worth it to some of us.

This way would require no effort from Bill, no billing, and no confusion among the general membership. Plus, you would be fixing something yourself instead of lodging a complaint that you've already supposed isn't going to go anywhere.

I would join.
 
I like MabSadie's idea. That sounds like a great compromise at least for now. Those socail groups are hard to find, and I think participation would be a bit lower than on the general forum, but it would definitely keep the pricing issues hidden from the casual lurker. (Not that we don't like lurkers, but we'd much rather have you join in the conversations!)
 
I bet if you asked one of the Mods to put a sticky at the top of the Business Issues Forum for a couple of weeks announcing a group, explaining how to join and how the user can subscribe so that updates are sent to their notifications tab so they don't have to go prowling for it, you would have a fair amount of interest and participation.

You could ask new members you suspect are just shoppers to provide a business email or website to verify they are retailers.
 
MabSadie2 said:
I bet if you asked one of the Mods to put a sticky at the top of the Business Issues Forum for a couple of weeks announcing a group, explaining how to join and how the user can subscribe so that updates are sent to their notifications tab so they don't have to go prowling for it, you would have a fair amount of interest and participation.

You could ask new members you suspect are just shoppers to provide a business email or website to verify they are retailers.
Click to expand...


Sorry, but that is my least favorite option. I belong to one of the groups and never seem to check it.

Out of sight, out of mind.

At lest let's make the business section private
 
One thing to keep in mind is the issue of price fixing. If you have a private club with dues for membership and you discuss pricing it could be misconstrued.
 
Larry Peterson said:
Sorry, but that is my least favorite option. I belong to one of the groups and never seem to check it.

Out of sight, out of mind.

At lest let's make the business section private
Click to expand...

I understand that, but that is about habits. Look at this way.

Chance that will you adapt your habits in order to accomplish your objective: As you say, fair to poor.

Chance that Bill will adapt the Grumble to your preferences, which could have an impact on membership (pay site) or not accomplish your objective (easy to register and therefore NOT actually private in any respect): About the same as winning the lottery.

Maybe I'm wrong on that, but I'm just saying it seems like a pretty longshot. And anyone can look at Warped, they just have to have a valid email and type the wiggly word. It's not THAT big a discouragement, and if a shopper is posting, they are registered anyway.

If someone has a better idea that wouldn't put the burden of verification on your Moderator staff, then it's more likely to happen and by all means do that.
 
If you're looking to prevent search engine drive-bys from seeing wholesale prices, just stop indexing / make private the forum where they are discussed.

If you're looking to prevent people from finding wholesale prices, well, I've got some bad news ;)
 
I agree that I could see making a new private section, either business issues or a new category.

I don't know much about the creation of the Grumble or the fundamental ideas behind it, but I think part of its magic is that its a place where anyone from the professionals to the novices can come together and share ideas and information. I almost think we should encourage the novices to be more involved (possibly in their own new category), it might be a good way to get feed back or new points of views from those who are new to the industry. Also, doesn't letting novices in on the discussions help show them how much is involved in framing; so while some people may get answers they need and not actually patron anyone's frame shop, I think others will be encouraged to visit their local framer for their help.

Also, when people post threads about prices or searching for some moulding so they can bypass their local framer, you don't have to answer them. And if you do answer them, I think some people need to be more mindful that people are coming to this forum for help, not to be treated in a smug and disrespectful manner. If you are a professional, act like it. This is not your personal forum for you to treat people like idiots or to condescendingly show off how much you do know but won't tell. I guess this part is really just my opinion, I just think this forum is more enjoyable without the all the smug or ugly comments.
 
I don't think discussing the prices that we charge is a big issue.
If anyone walks into our store they can get a quote.

As for revealing wholesale costs and resources...it's up to each of us to use a little discretion.
Private messages work well for things we don't want to put out there for the general public.

Sadie's suggestion of a social group is a good one.

As a wise woman used to say..."take what you can use and leave the rest."
 
Oh what`s the big honkin deal.....I actually tell people where I get my supplies etc. He**,I even encourage em to try to do whatever it is at the time..99% of the time I get an apology,and a comission........Just cuz they have the stuff too, don`t mean they can use it well. BTW, I`m here because of the openess, I sort of fell in. Some here probably wish I hadn`t.... L.
 
Not me, Laura. Glad to have you here.
 
I have worked in various professions throughout my life. The goods and equipment used in those professions were easily accessible to anyone, without qualifications. Didn't matter, what my clients wanted was what my skills and vision could bring to a project. And the very few who tried to do it themselves usually fell amusingly on their faces.

It seems rather antiquarian that there is such a high level of secrecy in the framing world. It implies that anybody could do it as well as we could, if only they knew where to get stuff. It also implies gratuitous markups, a common suspicion encouraged by secrecy.

I humbly submit that our skills and insights are important and our markups are consistent with other professions in our society. So don't be afraid to talk openly, if only to put framing in the same public perspective as most other professions.

As an aside, I recently gave a visitor a tour of my framing shop. Her comment was, "I didn't realize it took so much stuff!" Maybe now she has an improved opinion of framing, by knowing a little more about it.
 
I'm surprised to see this being brought up again.

My understanding:
The very nature of this (Bill's) forum is to promote the open exchange of information for people in the industry, or who would like to become part of it. It is the alternative to those restricted forums of the past, which have failed due to lack of participation. I think the open and welcome aspect is the true beauty of this forum, and the reason for its continued success.

If we where to make parts of the forum pay or private, it's possible that some threads of substance would only be available to the small group, and would not benefit the membership as a whole. I think this would be harmful to the forum, if so.

Most of the sub forums are very well indexed on google, and we want framers and potential framers to find us when they search for a particular topic that has been discussed here. Sub forums that have paid sponsors are generally made public to the search engines, and to non registered guests. It's probably best not to say something on the forum that you wouldn't want to be held accountable for later. It is possible to have great discussions with tact on an open forum, and to 'share with care' :) That's how this forum has always been.

Keep in mind that anyone can register on this international forum, framer or not. We don't have the resources to verify that they are currently employed as a framer, are in the process of researching to open a shop, or to police that they should be removed and are no longer an active framer. We try to be INclusive, not EXclusive.

I don't think there is any reason to be discussing wholesale prices on the forum, which vary depending on your negotiating skills. There's no harm in discussing retail prices openly, but even that is a misleading and mostly useless exercise. Every one of us are in different markets, with different costs of operation. (rent, labor, freight, utilities, negotiated discounts, etc) There is no universal msrp price for framing, and it probably causes more harm than good to take these comparison too seriously. As our good friend Bob Carter used to point out regularly, there are laws against "price fixing", and that we should be extra careful to avoid it.

One other factor is that probably greater than 50% of our followers are doing so as "guests", and have not taken the time to register. Granted, these people are not contributing to the discussion, but locking down additional forums would block them out too. I suspect that many of them are "reps", who have a gag order (contractual employment obligation) NOT to register/participate on industry forums.

The above is purely Mike's personal opinion, and not an official answer from Bill or any of the other moderators. I prefer the open exchange of information that we have here, just as I like open source operating systems for phones and computers. If there is something truly sensitive, the PPFA (our industrys only trade organization) has a private forum that is up for the task.

My two (three?) cents on the subject. Thanks for reading.

Best regards
Mike Labbe
 
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