Problems with AMP v-nailer

Ron

Grumbler in Training
Joined
Sep 13, 2005
Posts
8
Loc
Thomasville, NC
Hello All,

I am hoping that someone can give me some ideas on what to try differently in order to get perfect corners with my new v-nailer.

I purchase an AMP v-nailer (the model that will shoot at three different positions). I have been practicing with it but still very unsatisfied with it's performance. I must be doing something wrong.

My first problem was that the the frame was moving when the nail was shot. I think that I have resolved that problem. I changed from a round pad to an hard rubber angled pad for the top clamp and that seems to help.

My second problem is that there is a hair line crack when the molding is joined. The angle is perfect(I use a morso chopper). The gap is consistant even over the joint.

I need some guidance. I have tried everything that I can think of. I am to the point where I am thinking of gluing and clamping before I shoot the v-nails in it. That really defeats the purpose of the v-nailer doesn't it?

I would appreciate any quidance of advice that anyone could share with me. Please post your comments or email me directly at:

info@tarheelart.com

Thanks in advance...Ron
 
Welcome to the Grumble, Ron

What type of wood and profile of the molding are you joining?

spliting of wood would be an indication of a very hard wood.
 
Maybe I used the wrong words. The molding is not cracking...I am creating a hairline space at the joint. In otherwords, the joint is not tight....Thanks...Ron
 
I am using about 45 psi. I have tried adjusting the pressure up and down. If I adjust it down the molding jumps and I get an uneven joint and when I adjust it up it dents the molding. It is a medium wood. Can the foot plunger be operated on a slightly different pressure than the top clamp? It seems to me that the foot plunger has too much pressure that it is separating the joint??? Thanks..Ron
 
What AMP model do you have? Most v-nailers will shoot at any number of positions, depending on where the stops are set.

Pneumatic clamps have limited travel. Mechanical pressure may be reduced near the limit of travel, so I suggest positioning the clamp assemblies to hit the moulding near their mid-point of travel.

Place the vertical clamp directly over the v-nail position so that when the v-nail is driven, the moulding pieces do not move.

The fences on some v-nailers have adjustable angles. If yours does, check to be sure the fence angle is correctly adjusted to 90 degrees.

Every v-nail serves as a thin wedge in the wood. The more v-nails inserted, the more likely a small gap will appear at the inside or outside of the corner. It may be better to stack two v-nails than to insert them separately.

If you are going to Atlanta, be sure to ask all of the v-nail demonstrators about the problem you're experiencing. I will be demonstrating v-nailers somewhat similar to yours in the Fletcher-Terry booth and would be pleased to talk with you further.
 
I am using the mitre mite vn4 L. It has 3 adjustable stops. I understand everything and have 3 stop positions set, checked for 90 angle, and have started using a hard rubber angle clamp that seems to work the best. I feel like the problem rests with the foot clamp. You say:

"Pneumatic clamps have limited travel. Mechanical pressure may be reduced near the limit of travel, so I suggest positioning the clamp assemblies to hit the moulding near their mid-point of travel."

Can you explain what you mean by this?

Thanks,

Ron
 
Foot clamp? Do you mean the clamp activated by the foot pedal? Explain how the foot clamp engages the moulding, and then I'll know which one you're talking about.

Travel of a pneumatic cylinder refers to the distance it can move, and often the strength of thr cylinder is diminished as it reaches the limit of its travel. For example, if a clamp's pneumatic cylinder can travel 1-1/2", then I suggest setting that clamp about 3/4" away from the moulding.

When you insert the v-nail, does either moulding part move? As in sawing or chopping, any movement of parts during v-nailing represents a problem.
 
Ron, I don't know how far you are from Wilmington but if you can make it over here I'll show you how to make close to perfect joins with a v nailer. We make between 30 and 40 frames a day (more during busy times) with v nailers so we have some experience. We've developed a system we call "framing without fear" using off the shelf Bessey clamps that comes into play when the v nail joint isn't nearly perfect (dare I say "perfect"?) 45 lbs/sq in doesn't seem like much; our Cassesses want around 85lbs.

If you're really having a problem, the drive might be worth it. Bring the machine. Warren
 
I've been using a VN2+1 for many years. I would agree with Warren. It sounds like your pressure is set too low. I use at least 50 lbs of pressure for even the softest woods. It just makes the whole machine work better. I keep my pressure set at around 75 lbs for most everything we join. Avoiding denting the moulding becomes more a question of proper positioning and padding of the top (hold-down) clamp. I've got a variety of clamp pads made of materials of varying thickness and density, and I use what seems best for the particular mouldings.
Turn up the pressure and experiment.
:cool: Rick
 
Ron If you do go to Atlanta
Take a hand full of small pieces of the moulding you are having trouble with!~ Notthat the guys who sell the machines hand pick only the mouldings that work best!~ But it could also just be your profil and wood softness take it with you
 
Thanks for all the feedback. I spent about 3 hours working with it today and tried all the things that have be suggested. I spent most of the time trying to observe what was happening and I think that I have narrowed the problem down to this....

I press the foot pedal and clamp it...at this point things are looking pretty good. I shoot the first v nail ..still looking pretty good. Release the foot pedal half way (still clamped) and then press the side lever half way to reposition the nail head to the 2nd position...The I can tell a slight shift...when I move it to the 3rd position it the slight crack appears...it is almost like it is bowing up and repositioning itself at the mitre when the nail head is shifted.

I have 100 psi running to the machine but have it set at 45 psi on the machine. I rechecked my manual and it says 40-60 psi for medium wood.

I think it is one of two things:

1. Not clamping the thing right. The profile of the wood is a slanted. I am not sure what is best to try to clamp this thing with. I have tried both the round cushion and the hard rubber L and the L seems to work best. It could be that it is just a difficult profile to use with a v nailer. I will experiment with some different profiles and with different clamping pads.

2. PSI - I'll turn it up and experiment with the pressure some more. I had it turned up and it crushed the molding...I'll try some more.

That will be my project Wednesday. Everyone that uses a v nailer seems to swear by them but I sure have not gotten off to a very good start. I would really like to get this thing working so that I can use it without having to close my eyes out of pure fear everytime I shoot a nail!

Thanks,

Ron
 
On mine which is not an AMP, there is a clamp that comes down from the top. If that is too far away from the moulding, it rests on the moulding, but does not hold it firmly. Is it possible to adjust that clamp to go closer. If you go too close it will bruise the moulding.
 
...Not that the guys who sell the machines hand pick only the mouldings that work best.
Actually, most exhibitors selling saws and v-nailers tend to choose the more difficult mouldings for trade show demos. The pitch goes something like, "Any machine can handle the easy moulding shapes, but our machine can even handle this one...", and they pull out a 4" moulding with heavy-gesso and a convoluted profile.

In fairness, all of the professional-grade machines can handle any typical moulding.

When the machine has only one vertical clamp, it may be necessary to reposition it for each v-nail position on a really difficult moulding. The answer for that issue is to get a v-nailer that has two vertical clamps, and adjust them properly.
 
Still no luck. I am going to the show in Atlanta this weekend and maybe I can get some input from the ITW AMP folks. I will probably bring some samples of the results that I have been able to achieve or not achieve. This sure is a great board. I appreciate all the input and suggestions. I'll follow-up if I resolve the issue.
 
Ron

Check for a buildup of glue on the driver that pushes the v-nail into the moulding. There is a little depression that will fill up with glue.

Mitch
 
Ron, if the joint looks good after the first v nail, leave it alone. There's no reason to go to #2 and #3 simply because you can. Every time a v nail gets shot into the bottom of a joint there is a chance that something can go wrong, usually some late growth ring deflects the v nail. The v nail's purpose it to hold the joint together until the glue sets up. If one will do it, leave it at that.
 
I started to chime in on this the other night but my computer froze up and so the post got lost in the ether....

Some shops use a triangle cut from quarter-inch Plexi to spread the pressure from the plunger/hold-down thingy so as to avoid denting. One has to hold it in place by hand while also, in many cases, having to bear down on the frame to keep it from jumping up.

Also, every profile will have a different range of width in which nails can be inserted without causing leverage to rock it askew. If your moulding is clamped from above at the tallest point, every millimeter away from that direct vertical alignment will increase the lever effect and the risk of the joint twisting open somewhat.

I usually set this machine at about 65 psi.
 
Warren Tucker adds:

The v nail's purpose it to hold the joint together until the glue sets up. If one will do it, leave it at that.
Warren - are you serious - if I am doing a big 4" wide 2" high moulding I shouldn't waste my time stacking and putting a few rows of v-nails in?

Funny - when I do odd shapes I often hold till glue sets, then add v-nails later!
 
HB, I think my advice was if one v nail did the job (holds the joint together while the glue sets up), that's all you need.

Why nin the world would you insert v nails after the glue has set up? There's hardly any reason to do that and a lot of reasons not to. A prpper glue joint is going to be stronger than the mechanical joint so a v nail is superfluous. What you might ask happens if the glue joint fails? You repair it 20 years from now a heck of a lot easier than if it had a v nail or two in it. I'm a cabinet maker and I know of very few joints that are improved with metal, mechanical fastners; heck I can think of none. On the contrary, the fastners make the joints weaker.

The only argument for using v nails is they are way faster than waiting for each corner to dry before moving on to the next.

A good way to speed up a complicated profile is to first v nail it not caring too much how the joint looks and then clamping the joined frame in four bar clamps (we use Bessey clamps - we have over 40 of 'em in sizes going all the way up to 8'. Leave the frame in the clamps for about an hour and you're in fat city. The v nails simply hold the frame together long enough to apply the clamps and additionally keep the corners from slipping as we apply initial pressure. The clamps hold the frame together until the glue sets up enough to remove it. Using the bar clamps would be very difficult without first using the v nails.

Modern glues don't "dry out" so if a glue joint fails, it's going to be because it wasn't glued up properly in the first place or it receives a heck of a blow. In the latter case, I can't see how it makes much difference if the corners have v nails in them to hold the corners together and to make repair more difficult. Probably the most damage to the inside of the corners will be done by the v nails attempting to hold the frame together under a great deal of stress. You could count on more damage removing the v nails.

Miter joints are not 100% endgrain joints (probably around 45%- I've heard 60%) and when properly glued, are very strong.
 
Thanks Warren - I was always taught in school that the a good glue joint was stronger than the wood beside it & have seen that evidence

BUT

only when the materials are clamped together with pressure - as you say with clamps. I was under the impression that the V nails are designed to act as a spring to put pressure in the corners, and if you go by the manual (of course) they want as many V nails as possible (good for them if they sell them too).

Be interested to hear what others do.

Thanks again
 
My 2 cents: First the top clamp- I generally set it two fingers width above the moulding for soft wood and framica or one fingers width for hard. I keep the pressure between 70 & 90 psi; 70 for soft and 90 for hard. Second, are you putting the nails in the machine glue side up? If not, that could cause splitting, so can putting a v-nail too close to the outer or inner edge of the moulding. You should also make sure the nail isn't too tall for the part of the moulding you're inserting it into. I do this by holding the nail against the cut end of the wood. If it's only the hardwoods that are splitting, you should be using the straight v-nails, not the ones with "pulling power". Third, the inner clamp- I generally put this as close to the rabbet as the machine will allow. Last, cut a bunch of corner samples from your scrap and practice, practice, practice. The AMP is a great joiner, I've been using them for over 20 years!
PS to Ron: My wife is from the East Side...have some timbits and a french vanilla cappuccino for her at Timmies.
 
Originally posted by Warren Tucker:
...Modern glues don't "dry out" so if a glue joint fails, it's going to be because it wasn't glued up properly in the first place or it receives a heck of a blow. In the latter case, I can't see how it makes much difference if the corners have v nails in them to hold the corners together and to make repair more difficult...
There's no doubt that a properly glued miter is strong, but I think that's beside the point.

For one thing, improper gluing may not be realized. For example, Joe may glue & vice a frame just before going to lunch, and 15 minutes later Bob may take it out for fitting, thinking it's been in the vices overnight. No symptoms of a weakened joint would be evident until later, when it fails.

I would not assemble a mitered-corner frame with only glue and without mechanical fasteners. V-nails are the best choice for most picture framers. Aside from the obvious advantages -- speed, strength, and no nail holes to fill -- V-nails serve two purposes:

1. When the corner is joined, v-nails draw the miters together and keep the parts from moving while the glue sets up.

2. When the corner fails in the future, mechanical fasteners will hold the parts together and prevent a catastrophic failure. A bumped corner may knock a glue bond loose, but v-nails would save the glass & other contents from falling out.

Mitered joints glued with a modern polyalyphatic resin adhesive is durable, and the typical framing "white glue" is stronger than the wood. But that does not mean the glue will hold two pieces of wood together forever. Expansion & contraction cycles stress the bond because wood fibers and glues react differently to the ever-changing ambient conditions.

In most cases when a corner breaks loose, the glue does not fail, but the wood fibers it surrounds detach from the other wood fibers around the glue joint. That is why we see wood fibers still attached to both sides of the glue layer in a failed miter.

Poor joining is a common problem, but even when joining is done perfectly, the hygroscopic nature of wood fibers will eventually weaken the bond.

Always join frame corners with mechanical fasteners.
 
Update - I have fixed my problem!

Well, I went to the show in Atlanta this weekend and talked to several people to seek some advice. After trying a couple of the suggestions, what worked was using soft v nails versus the medium v nails. Shoots v nails like a dream. I would have never quessed that changing the nail hardness would make such a difference. Once guy I spoke to in Atlanta said that a lot of the wood that molding is made of today is not real quality wood and that the harder nails don't cut but crush as they go in. The wood that I was trying to join was pretty hard (tight grain). Those soft v nails slide in just like butter. I am now a happy camper. I sure have learned a lot from everyone here and I have really increased my depth of knowledge that will help me troubleshoot any future problems. Thanks a bunch everyone!

Ron
 
Jim, your arguments for mechanical fasteners in a good glue joint seem strained, to say the least. If a very large frame with something very valuable in it, maybe there is an argument for fastners in addition to a good glue joint. But you'd be planning for a catastrophic failure of all 4 glue joints at once, so unlikely it can be safely ignored.

We put v nails in all our frames but that's because we join a lot every day and couldn't glue up every corner in a vise. We use v nails because they are quick and dirty. But, if I had a frame with the joints already glued, I wouldn even consider using v nails. As to pulling the joint together and putting it under pressure, I'd argue that that isn't a good thing. The mating surfaces don't have to be under a lot of pressure, they just have to mate. Extra pressure tends to "starve" the glue joint and is counter productive. Sometimes the pressure is necessary to get the surfaces to mate but that's a problamatic joint to begin with. Once the bonding has begun, if the frame is undisturbed, clamping isn't necessary while the glue continues to set up.

As to glue joint strengths, it's not true that in a mitered joint the bond is stronger than the wood. That's true for long grain to long grain joints but not for joints with a lot of endgrain. Endgrain joints are very weak joints (nowhere near as strong as the wood) and as I mentioned before, miter joints contain at least 45% endgrain. That said, glued mitre joints are plenty strong enough for their purpose, way stronger than mechanically joined mitres.

Reasons not to insert v nails into already glued joints: the v nail weakens join, the v nail makes repairing a failed joint much harder, the presence of v nails will damage the mitered corners if the joint fails or is broken (more likely).

Reasons for using v nails: I can't think of any. Now if I had an interest in selling v nailers to people who don't need them...

I use v nailers and couldn't get along without them - I've got 3 of the best, 2 Cassesse 486's and a Cassesse 4095. In fact we were one of the first shops in the country, if not the the first, to install a Cassese v nailer, what, 25 years ago? But if I didn't need the speed they offer I wouldn't own one. If my production was slow enough to allow me to vise glue each corner of a frame, I wouldn't even think about owning one.

HB, my advice gained after a long exerience with v nailers (I've owned a variety of them including two AMPs) is that every time you insert a v nail you're increasing the chance that something will go wrong. We use just enough to hold the joint together while the glue sets up; that's the only purpose for v nails. They not only don't add strength, they actually weaken joints. If anyone has the luxury of vise gluing his joints, she'd be nuts to risk damaging the joints by driving v nails into them.

When we join very expensive, wide frames (frames that are going to be carved and gilded), we'll often rout a 1/2" plough 1/4" deep accross the joints on the bottom of the frame and glue in what we call a surface tennon, actually a surface floating tennon. That actually adds strength since the joint is close to a longgrain to longrain glue joint.

Finally poeple who buy custom framing mostly live in climate controlled houses where there aren't extrem temperature and humidity changes. I've never seen a joint that failed because of expansion and contraction. The failures I have seen are the result of abuse of some sort.
 
...maybe there is an argument for fastners in addition to a good glue joint. But you'd be planning for a catastrophic failure of all 4 glue joints at once, so unlikely it can be safely ignored.
A catastrophic failure can be triggered by one corner failure, which would stress other corners and cause them to fail soon. If three tight corners were enough to hold a frame together, then wouldn't framers bother only to glue three corners?

...As to pulling the joint together and putting it under pressure, I'd argue that that isn't a good thing. The mating surfaces don't have to be under a lot of pressure, they just have to mate.
If you know of a wood glue manufacturer that does not recommend clamping glued joints, please let me know. I'd like to learn more about the concept. Meanwhile, I guess the manufacturers know more about their glues than you or I do, and will follow their instructions.

...As to glue joint strengths, it's not true that in a mitered joint the bond is stronger than the wood.
Yes, a perfectly-glued joint can fail because wood fibers separate under stress, and a poorly glued joint can fail for other reasons. In any case, we agree that glued joints can fail, which points to the need for a mechanical fastener.

...Reasons for using v nails: I can't think of any. Now if I had an interest in selling v nailers to people who don't need them...I use v nailers and couldn't get along without them.
OK, you benefit from using v-nailers. I do, too. I could get along without them, but choose to have the benefit. I'm confused that you say v-nailing is not necessary, but that you "couldn't get along without them". What framer would not benefit from using a v-nailer? I'm missing your point here.

...every time you insert a v nail you're increasing the chance that something will go wrong...they actually weaken joints. If anyone has the luxury of vise gluing his joints, she'd be nuts to risk damaging the joints by driving v nails into them.
Being a hands-on skeptic, I compared the strength of glued/v-nailed joints to glue/vice/brads, plastic inserts (Thumbnails), wooden biscuits, and glue alone. For each method I joined a corner using two pieces of moulding, all of the same length and from the same 10 ft. stick. After joining the best I could, I suspended each joined pair from one end and added weight to the other end until the corner fell apart. In my tests wooden biscuits proved to be the srongest joining method, but very labor intensive. V-nails were next, and faster than all the rest. Glue/vice/brads came next, and glue alone was the weakest joint. My own testing agreed with everything I've seen and heard over the years about joining, and now you're telling us that it's all wrong. I'm feeling skeptical again.

...we'll often rout...and glue in...a surface floating tennon. That actually adds strength...
You agree that a mechanical fastener is better than glue alone?

...I've never seen a joint that failed because of expansion and contraction. The failures I have seen are the result of abuse of some sort.
Even in my short and sheltered life, I have seen joints fail from expansion & contraction. For example, I know of an old frame stored in an attic for a just few months that came out with all four corners loose; no signs of abuse.

Expansion & contraction cycles go on everywhere all the time, and the cycles have an effect. Extreme cycles weaken glued miters faster than mild cycles, but the effect is the same -- it just takes longer.

"..abuse of some sort" happens, and v-nailing helps frames survive carelessness and abuse.

Thanks for sharing your opinions, Warren. Opposing views help us think through things.
 
Jim strained and more strained. Sure a failure of one joint could cause the other joints to fail (it's not likely, though)but surely someone would notice the failed joint and do something about it. I have lots of pictures in my house over 20 years old whose glue joints are doing just fine and will continue to do just fine long after I've left. TRue, none of these frames have been subjected to the attic stress test, nor will they be. They'd probably do ok, though, or we could ecxpect to see just about all frames emerge from attic storage with failed glue joints being held together with nails (cross nailed for"extra strength"). Strangely, frames frequently emerge from attic experiences with good corners.

Sure glued surfaces need to be held together while glue sets up, but they don't need a lot of pressure, just enough to hold the surfaces together. My experience, and the experience of a whole lot of others, I might add, is that most failed (and probably all)because they were starved of glue from over clamping. Vises offer all the force necessary for a good joint without help from v nails.

No one even remotely familar with woodworking would suggest that a miter joint is anywhere near as strong as a long grain joint (which is stronger than the wood it joins).

And, yes, I benefit from v nailers and we use the heck out of them. They make joining way faster than any other way I can imagine, but they don't make stronger joints. Arguably, they make strong glue joints weaker

I, too, have done some experiments with mitre joints but my results differed radically from yours. Perhaps because my experiments were designed better. We tested a glue only joint against a variety of v nail combinations in v nail only joints. We used the same profile but eventually we used different sticks of moulding. None of the v nail joints were anywhere near as strong as the glue joint. The v nail joints did fail gradually, finally taking great hunks of wood with them as the legs seperated while the glue joint failed all at once in a snap. The glued joints were fairly clean after failure, too. Which joint would you rather mend? The v nail joints were tougher though not stronger. I've also done experiments comparing mortise and tennons, floating tennons and biscuits in door rail to stile joints. The mortise and tennon joints were the strongest.

There's no doubt that the biscuit miter joint is stronger than a glue only jont. That's because the biscuit acts as a sort of floating tennon. We have a Lemello Top 10 for cutting biscuit slots, but we've found that biscuits in miter joints are a tedious business so we use the surface floating tennons. The floating tennons are fastly stronger than just a glue joint (stronger than necessary, probably). They're strong because they are glued in rather than simply driven in as in the case of v nails. Their strength derives from the extra gluing surface they provide and the fact that their surfaces present long grain to the joint. In a gilded frame, the added strength they offer makes sense since these frames tend to be large and heavy. I see no contradiction.

To answer your question, a framer who has the luxury of being able to vise glue his corners is the framer who has no use for a v nailer. The whole notion of v nailing a frame whose corners are already glued up is novel to me, but I think I know where it began.

Far from pulling corners together as some manufacturers suggest, my experience suggests that v nails force corners apart that aren't tightly clamped or already glued up. Framers noticed that inserting v nails with their machines caused their joints to seperate and so(here's where we came in) they began to glue the corners together before nailing them, defeating the whole purpose of a v nailer. But rather than realise that the whole process was an excercise in futility, they decided that the v nails added strength. And what v nail pedler would argue with them?

Unlike you, Jim, I well know we can't get along without our v nailers. That's why we have 3 of 'em. One 486 is a backup to the 4095 while the other 486 is a backup to the first 486. Triple redundancy. That's how important v nailers are to me. And they're important, not because they make joints stronger, they don't, but because they make framing faster, way faster than without them. We can't afford to go a day with one not working. We even have backup air compressors.

V nails serve as mini vises; they hold the legs together until the glue sets up. That's it.

I imagine there's a lot of grief out there the result of a framer who already has one v nail holding his corner together and decides to add another for "extra strength." The second v nail pushes the corner apart. That second v nail, even if it goes in perfectly, isn't going to add any strength. What it's more likely to do is push the corner apart. We never insert the second v nail if the first is doing the job even though the machine will do it automatically. I've had v nail company engineers tell me that every v nail inserted is potential disaster, use just the number you need to hold the corner together.

Too, I'd like to point out that making a good glue joint isn't rocket science nor the fruit of long and arduous training. Simply coat both mating surfaces with a thin film of glue and apply enough pressure to hold the surfaces together. Leave the joint that way for about 20 minutes. That's it.

V nailers make joining frames faster, they don't make frames stronger. If you're glueing up your frames and then v nailing them, you're defeating the whole purpose of v nailers. A vise glued up frame, done properly, which isn't hard, is a product as good or better than what I offer. I simply can't make the number of frames I do that way so I use v nailers, but I don't kid myself about why I'm using these very expensive machines. The v nailers make it possible for me to make large numbers of reasonably priced, well joined, frames. I don't use them to make stronger frames.


There will be those who argue that v nails pull the corners together but I'm not one of them. I think inserting a v nail into a corner is more likely to push it apart and that's why I suggest that if one will hold the corner together
 
Ron, I recently purchased the same nailer and the same fustration.After a lot of practice on scrap, and quite a few badly joined real frames,I have developed two solutions.

The first one is to play around with the adjustments on the fences until there is no movement when you apply the foot clamp and the top clamp. The moulding must be locked into that corner before you shoot the nail. If it can move at all, you will get that space. Dry test before you nail until your sure.

The second thing is a whole bunch of little jigs and things I've made out of small pieces of wood, felt pad, plexi ect. which help to direct the pressure where I need it. And always nail where it is easiest to put that pressure.

Of course if every moulding was perfectly flat, perfectly cut and the back side perfectly vertical, you wouldn't need this, but this is real life, not a trade show.

Good luck
 
Warren

I appreciate your response and "hear what you say" and frankly, I agree with it more than I don't.

When I said I sometimes glue first then v-nail, I should explain that - its only on multiangles that I hold together by hand for a minute (I can't clamp it), then later when the glue is dry I hold my breath real hard & v-nail it so it doesn't all come to pieces should a corner break.

I won't do that anymore!
 
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