problem customer #2

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Jean McLean

Jean McLean

CGF, Certified Grumble Framer
Joined
Feb 25, 2001
Posts
128
Loc
Millinocket, ME, USA
Not only do framers have problems with customers. How about artists? 12 years ago I traded a very large photograph of my area's mountain all in bright red fall leaves. It was framed in wood, double matted and behind glass. The trade was to a new motel with an indoor heated pool and exercise room. They wanted my photo behind their customer service desk in trade for a year's membership. I took it. 12 yrs. later "new owners" walked into my gallery-frame shop with the photo. All these years it was hung directly under a flourescent light and it was very faded. The frame and mat still look great. Anyway, the customer demanded that I put a new picture in it to replace the faded one and wanted the same exact photo. She said it was a direct reflection on me and my work and would leave it hanging as it is if I do not replace it. I was flabbergasted and really don't know what I should do. It will cost me at least $100 to have a new photo made that size. Should I jeopardise my very good reputation for this? I feel I am being taken advantage of and should not be held responsible for how my work was shown for all those years. All pictures will fade under those circumstances. My husband told me to return it and offer to replace it if they agreed to pay for it. If they don't....politely say, "guess I will live with it." Actually, they are new owners and it really is a direct reflection on them if they want to leave a faded photo up. If they do agree to pay for a new picture, should I replace the glass with Tru Vue 47% glass? The frame and mats look great. At least I can be proud of my framing.
 
Jean, here I go again...
If the picture has hung for 12 years, and all of a sudden the new owners want it replaced, free, because it faded, I would tell them to take a hike.
First: If they want it replaced, it must not suit them. Stands to reason that they don't want it hanging as is. I think they are bluffing, trying to get you to give them something for free. (If you do, do you think they are the type people that would say,"Oh, this wonderful artist/framer replaced that picture for free")
Second: Your reputation, I don't believe, hinges on that one piece. Worst case, should someone ask you about it, just explain about the flourescents, and how the picture faded over a 12 year period, and the new owners wanted you to replace it free.
Third: I have seen your website and your work. It speaks for itself. You are a fine artist and photographer. The fact that a photo faded after 12 years is NO reflection on your art/craft/work. We've all seen your framing on the G.

I think this is a 'bully' customer, one of the countless who will try and get something for nothing, using intimidation as a weapon. I would be inclined to mention to them that the last you want to see of them is when they leave your shop. But, I'm reactionary, and that's probably not the thing to do. I wouldn't cave in, though.

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I'm not totally worthless. I can always be used as a bad example...
 
Your husband and Charles are correct.

Put together a legitimately-priced work order to replace the photograph (and including museum glass so it doesn't happen again) and present it to them for signature; require at least 50% deposit to begin the work and make sure that they sign a disclaimer that they understand that this picture will fade, too, where it is hung and that you are in no way responsible for how art is mistreated when you've properly educated your customers.


Thank them for having such good taste and tell them that you'll be happy to serve their needs any time in the future, as well.

And stick to your guns and let them open the door their own selves on the way out if they don't buy it, which they probably won't. They're just trying to bully you into something for nothing and hoping you'll fold.
 
Why would you replace for free something that was never purchased to begin with. Could you tell them that you looked up the paperwork and that the piece was only on lone to them and thank them for returning it?
smile.gif
Just kidding. But really...I assume you didn't sell them the piece as a limited edition or a collectors item so you have no responsability towards the life of the product. Color photos don't last forever even Kodak admits they are only good for about 10 years before noticable fading and that's only if they haven't been subjected to excess UV light. You'll be lucky if your negative isn't faded also. Unfortunately most people don't know this, they think their photos will last forever. Check to see if Kodak has any free or downloadable info on this subject that you can show the owners. That may help. As far as I'm concerned if the new owners want a new print they should have to pay for it. Or maybe the same trade you made before?

I reread your post and the bit about how they will leave it up as is as a reflection of your work really pisses me off. That's just plain old blackmail. They want something for nothing and are willing to destroy your reputation to get it. If you really want a fight take the photo out of the frame and destroy it then give the frame back to them. Tell them they can sue you for a new photo but before they do they had better find the receipt saying the artwork was theirs. You don't want their business or anything else to do with them.

This should stir up some interesting replies!


[This message has been edited by Frank (edited April 30, 2001).]
 
Po'framer is exactly right on this score. The history of the piece being done in-trade has no relevance what so ever. The fact is, glass technology has changed and UV filtered glass was not ordered by the previous owners. Suggest to the new owners if they balk at price for replacement, it is a wonderful example and testimonial for the need to use UV Filtered glass on all pictures. If you don't want your name at the business, take down the byline. Doesn't sound like the new owners are hitting it off with their neighbors. Keep smiling, life shouldn't be so personal.
 
It's not often that a Ocker says something others can agree with, Frank are you really an Ozzie lad?
This is an attempt at blackmail, if they refuse a reasonable offer and do as they say I would suggest that you immediatly issue a trespass notice against them, then call your lawyer. Okay thats not nice but I think these people need to be put in their place.
I quite liked Frank's first idea too.
smile.gif
 
I forgot to mention that the new owners came into my frame shop a month ago with 2 cheap posters and wanted a price quote to have it dry mounted so they could "tack" them on the wall...no frame, etc. Now this alone speaks for the type of class act the new owners have.

My husband also said I should nicely tell them that I would gladly absorb the replacement costs of a new photo if they had purchased more art or photos over the last 12 years or in the near future but since they haven't, nor intend to, I will not replace it for free.

Thank you for helping. I was really giving it some serious thought in replacing the photo as I am a softie but now that I know the opinion of your professional people...I won't. I will do what pro'framer suggested and make a work order with a new total price of $175 for the photo and UV glass and return the picture today with the work order. I won't ask for a deposit because right now, I really don't want anything to do with them. Now I am going to go check out Kodak's site! Good suggestion. I should have some of those forms anyway.
 
I must agree with everyone else, these people are trying to take advantage. Have you sold other pictures as a result of yours hanging in the hotel? If you have and think it will help sell lots more then maybe you could work a deal with them. Unfortunately hotels and restaurants think by "donating" work for their walls artists will sell the work, but I've not found that to be a major source of income. You got a membership, they got free art for 12 years. Your original deal was with the old owners and you have no deal with the new ones. Doubt a furniture store would replace their furniture just because it got damaged under the old owners watch. Good luck.
 
Cody is right, you had a deal with the old owners... not the new ones. If they want you to some framing for them, they should pay. You can not be hald accountable for how the other owners displayed your framing, and therefore are not responsible for the fading.

If they want a new picture, they can BUY a new picture.


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Sue May :)
"You want it when?!?!?"
 
Hose these people off. Ask them if they were successful in replacing 12 yr. old drapes, or 12 yr. towels or 12 yr old anything for free. Replacing, no refurbishing, is a normal expectation
 
I agree that the photo, as large and costly as it is, should not be replaced for free. My husband is a photographer and has replaced, for free, photos which customers have had problems with, usually by their own fault, (hanging under an open window, broken glass which scratched the print) but, and this is a BIG BUT, the customers did not expect or assume he would do it for free, he did it because he wanted to.

The biggest problem I see is the fact that the photo is in such bad shape that it will reflect badly on you if not replaced. That is sad and you certainly do not deserve that. Offer to replace it for what seems reasonable to you, and then let it go. They are defineately trying to take advantage.
 
<BLOCKQUOTE>quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jean McLean:
I won't ask for a deposit because right now, I really don't want anything to do with them.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Jean, don't ask for a deposit...ask for full payment up front. You'll have a problem getting them to pay the balance if they do decide to purchase the new print. I can smell that problem coming......and I'm a lonnnnnng ways away!
 
Just a note if you buy into the loan to restaurant concept. Artwork disappears, a staff member took it home who knows. The owners may not take responsibility.

AND

"ARTWORK DOES NOT SELL ITSELF, PEOPLE SELL ARTWORK"

Been there, done it, won't do it again.



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Timberwoman
AL
I cut the mat, I pet the =^..^= cat.
 
Update:

I took everyone's advice and did a little compromising on my own as I really care about my reputation more than the money.

I sent them a nice letter explaining that the previous owners did not buy the photo, etc. Then I offered free labor to replace the photo with a new one and would put new mats on it if they would be willing to purchase the photo themselves. I then stated that I wanted them to be as proud of their new business and how it looks as much as I want to be proud of my photo being displayed there. I ended by saying that if they accept my offer that I would expect a 50% deposit right away and that they should consider conservation glass for the new photo with a brief explanation of conservation glass. (this I could do from what I learned on Grumble lately). Thanks.

Result: The lady came into my shop yesterday all smiles and sweetly accepted my offer. She was very pleasant about it and told me to drop by the motel for the deposit. I feel sooooo much better that they will be displaying my work without badmouthing me. She even said they will consider a $75 piece of conservation glass.

To top it all off:

She told me that the owner wanted me to carefully remove the faded photo and save it for him to hang in his home! Hmmm, wonder if he will buy a new frame or...TACK IT ON HIS WALL?
 
Good compromise, as evidenced by the fact that you feel so much better.


But, can you ask that the owner not tell anyone that the one in his home (how hypocritical can he get?) was done by you? Otherwise are you not back where you started?

Or, more likely, I'm missing something.
 
Jean:

If a non-customer came to me and demanded free re-framing, with their purchase of a replacement for a 12-year old picture, I would politely (but absolutely) decline that as an attempt on their part to bully me into giving them something for nothing. Maybe you would have, too.

But now it seems like a really fair deal, considering their original demand. (Or should it be called a threat?)

It's a classic negotiating technique: (1)Intimidate your opponent. (2)Demand *everything* you could possibly want, and force your opponent to start negotiating from that position.

In almost every case the Intimidator will get more than if negotiating had started from a more reasonable position.

Now, maybe the promotional value of that framed picture in that place is well worth your cost of the re-framing. But if you had rejected their demands out-of-hand and not negotiated any "settlement", would they have eventually paid you to do what you're doing free? Quite possibly. Or, would they have traded you another year's membership, or worked out some other deal more fair to you? Who knows?

Anyway, prepare yourself. You can bet they'll be back, intimidating you and demanding everything you're willing to give up.
 
Jean--

You're a softie. LOL I have to agree with Jim; I think they bullied you beyond rationality to get you to compromise on what they really wanted...which is the universal Something For Free. And I don't know why you have to go by their motel to get your deposit; why couldn't she have dropped it off when she came by? Most people, when they go into a business, bring money with them; my grocer doesn't swing by my house to pick up his cash. LOL

Anyway, I'm glad you're happy with the compromise, and in the end I suppose that's all that matters....although if I were you, I would just as sweetly inform the woman that since the old photograph has caused them such a problem, you don't see fit to give it back; if it looks so horrible in their lobby, it will look equally horrible in their home, won't it?

Bottom line: I have a very short fuse when I feel like I'm being taken advantage of by anyone, customers or co-workers or friends, etc., so I probably wouldn't have been as kind as you have been. But it is your business, and since you have arrived at a solution that makes you happy, God bless.
smile.gif


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I don't care what color your sofa is.
 
Did not the new owners purchase a "used" piece of photography when they purchased the rest of the "used" property that came with the hotel? Do they also expect the supplier of the beds to replace them if they sag from use, or the furniture to be replaced because the finish has worn from daily cleaning, or the rugs to be made new having been walked on?
Seems to me that "where is, as is" applies on all counts. By compromising in order to appease you have effected an undesired change to your "very good reputation".
If your rep was so good, how could someone of such transparent intent do damage to it?
They won, and really, that's all that probably mattered to them anyway.
 
Ah Ha! Do you actually think I would quote them the actual price for replacing the photo? I quoted them between $100 to $120 to replace it and today I took it to the photo shop and it was $56.00. I am only out the mats and labor and will charge them the $120 so actually am not out anything. Hey, this Maine gal isn't as nuts as you think! Ha Ha. I just hope they don't ask to see the receipt or want it. I would be tempted to tuck a 1 in front of the $ 56!!
 
You sly fox!

[This message has been edited by wpfay (edited May 04, 2001).]
 
Hey Jean, I always suspected you Maine gals had an angle hidden up those flannel sleeves!

Here's something for you: Give them the receipt anyway and let them know: Next time they want to bark like big dogs they better be able to get off the porch!
 
Actually, I was kidding.... get shed of that bunch as quick as you can and put them on straight cash deals at cost plus any time they want to do more biz.
 
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